Is there Sid win without ...

[Heroes]

At lower levels, some good players could win confidently, no matter what start location, civ, map, opponents, etc. Even deity probably is one of these "lower" levels! But Sid looks to be a different story. Most sid wins I see benefit from these factors:

1. Arch map. First, it retards AIs to contact and trade. Second, defense is so much easier, since AIs are inefficient to invade cross water. So even always war (e.g., Arathorn) could be won!

2. Start with alphabet. And furthurmore, sometimes to guarantee great lib, choose opponents so that no one else knows alphabet. Plus these with arch map, GL is 99% sure (the only chance to be beaten is AI SGL) ...

3. Capture Great lib. Even if we can't build GL, if GL is in our continent (surely so if map is pang), there is still good chance to capture it and gain even more techs. A great example is the 7+1 legend. But what if GL is in another island? And, Sir Pleb gives GL away before knowing education and recaptures it after seeing railroads, -- some may think it's exploitive ...

4. Start location. Since AI bonuses are so insane, it looks reasonable to me to require at least that our start city can become a 4 turn settler factory. But of course somebody can win with a mediocre start location, e.g., "scouting Sid", where there is no bonus food tile in the first city. But OTOH, that's with arch map and alphabet.

5. Steal tech. The cost of self research is terribly high, so steal makes a lot of sense. For arch map, steal is very safe, because even if you are caught and get declared, oversea AI cannot really hurt you. But again, what if it's not arch, and you have to steal from neighbors? How much factor of luck is involved? OTOH, isn't self research safer? When all the other AIs already know the tech, your cost is significantly lower. So perhaps self research at least to communism and espionage (for veteran spy) is not a bad idea.

So, is there any Sid win in a contient of pang map, with an ordinary start location, not knowing alphabet, no GL build or (re)capture? With these conditions, tech steal is also very hard. I would be very happy and grateful if you point out such an interesting legend to me.

 

[Own]

Oh yeah there's a sid standard pangaea win with all seven opponents, and the civ is 3rd tier India. There was a GL capture, and the start was great, but it was legendary anyway. In the stories and tales forum look in the sticky "Archive of the legendary games" and the game is titled "Sid Vicious and the Magnififcent Seven plus One." One of the few story games/SG's I've read word for word. Absolutely amazing game.

 

[killercane]

It certainly would be tough to find a written up game without any of the listed criteria, but thats attributable to most of the games being SGs or HOF games where you would at least want a river and food bonus. I agree that an archi sid game isnt as "pure" as a continents or pang game.

 

[Heroes]

Oh yeah there's a sid standard pangaea win with all seven opponents, and the civ is 3rd tier India. There was a GL capture, and the start was great, but it was legendary anyway. In the stories and tales forum look in the sticky "Archive of the legendary games" and the game is titled "Sid Vicious and the Magnififcent Seven plus One." One of the few story games/SG's I've read word for word. Absolutely amazing game.

Yes, I noticed that and call it "7+1". That's a very admirable game, I salute to those guys OTOH, india is not actually 3rd tier (at least for sid): it starts with alphabet, and war elephant is very very strong in C3C (no resource, additional HP). Even so, without capturing GL from the Vikings by a parade of jumbos, it would be super tough for 7+1 players to have any chance to win. For that game, I have one thing not understandable: why build a worker (and even 1 turn wealth!) and research pottery in the beginning, not build a warrior to explore and hope to get pottery by trade? That start strategy made it very hard to catch up in tech, and led to capturing GL as the only possible way to go.

 

[Drakan]

Ifyuan it's difficult to tackle Sid level without using one or more of the listed above.

Check Moonsinger's Hof sid game with 88.000 points. She had a good start with 4 cows and an archipiélao map. Although she had three other civs in her home continent.

she played against 8 sid AIs and managed to keep up the tech pace up to cavalry without building the GL or capturing it. Pretty impressive feat.

I tried like four times using her 4000 BC save to keep up but I just had to resort to build the GL.

Check her HOF saves, they're incredible.

 

[Heroes]

Ifyuan it's difficult to tackle Sid level without using one or more of the listed above.

Yes, I guess my question is basically whether there is some primitive way to survive (not to say win) sid without any special setting. In principle this could be possible, since tech pace becomes slower after AI reach modern age, and no one is likely to win via UN. And AI is very dumb to do warfare with railroad and artillery. So no matter how backward human was in the beginning, there is still chance to catch up at last, no matter via self research, steal, or war.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

For that game, I have one thing not understandable: why build a worker (and even 1 turn wealth!) and research pottery in the beginning, not build a warrior to explore and hope to get pottery by trade?

Easy one. Because the AI Civ selection made it futile to hope for a trade for Pottery (3 AI Civs started with Alpha, that made the game even harder). The early second Worker delayed growth to size 3 for 5 turns - but brought Pottery substantially earlier.
Not the best strategy for all situations, but here it was the correct choice.

 

[Gyathaar]

I dont know of any such recorded game..
But that isnt because it cant be done.. its mostly because most sid games will be played with a good start in order to get good score, fast win, or to ensure a good chance of victory.

High water arch map or building/capturing great lib will in most cases work against you if you want a fast or highscoring victory IMHO.

 

[Aegis]

I'd like to see someone win a Huge Pangea with 14 civs Sid map.

 

[Heroes]

Easy one. Because the AI Civ selection made it futile to hope for a trade for Pottery (3 AI Civs started with Alpha, that made the game even harder). The early second Worker delayed growth to size 3 for 5 turns - but brought Pottery substantially earlier.
Not the best strategy for all situations, but here it was the correct choice.

Thank you for explanation, -- those first turns were just played by you How about another choice: build a warrior first and then a settler or worker? I noticed that after you had the 1st warrior, you didn't explore but used him as MP. Is this because contact is not very helpful? But the more knowing civs have pottery, the less you will pay for researching it.

I think a settler before granary is useful, because the 2nd city can build worker and warrior, and supports 4 more units. Also for this reason, it's not a hurry to learn pottery ASAP, because you can build a settler first and then a barracks as prebuild.

I would appreciate more detailed analysis, thank you.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

The problem in 7+1 was that we had raging Barbs. An exploring Warrior wouldn't have survived for long, and the neighboring AIs showed up soon anyway (and we did scout fast enough to locate the next city locations). It is of course correct that more contacts lower the research costs; but for that, you don't have to meet them in the very first turns - it's enough to have contacts later.
With Barbs in the game, it was also obvious that all AIs will have all 1st tier techs in no time, so Alpha didn't have any trade value. Oh, and we even had SGLs enabled- the Mongols eg rushed the Oracle early.
The reason why you want Pottery ASAP is not so much the urgent need for a Granary; with a high food start, you better pump out 2 or 3 Settlers before anyway. But, you want to start a minimum run on Writing, in the hope for some trade value; and during that time, you want to buy some other tech, not Pottery.

 

[Offa]

Tiny map conquests don't require these things. Although a good start spot is required, settlers aren't needed, and techs are all extorted in peace deals. I know this sort of game is very different from those you are referring to, but it does indicate that these factors aren't required.

I imagine the tactics used for tiny map conquests would work very badly most of the time on larger maps, but given a tough start on Sid with a suitable civ...

Presumably there aren't many players who have much appetite for playing huge Pangeas on sid with a bad start. You would have to be a pretty good player, it would take ages and you might well lose. Even if you won, you would be left with a poor HOF score compared with the mapfinder guys. This sort of thing would probably be best as a SG, where players could chivvy one another along a bit.

 

[Obormot]

I guess on a tiny pangaea you don't even need a very good start, only a decent one. And it may even be a good idea to apply the tactics of jag/war chariot rush on larger maps. It should be possible to take out at least 2 civs and extort many techs, possibly most of AA.

Sid with only an average start, not archipelago, max number of opponents and no building/capturing TGL might actually be a good idea for an SG

 

[Heroes]

The problem in 7+1 was that we had raging Barbs. An exploring Warrior wouldn't have survived for long, and the neighboring AIs showed up soon anyway (and we did scout fast enough to locate the next city locations). It is of course correct that more contacts lower the research costs; but for that, you don't have to meet them in the very first turns - it's enough to have contacts later.
With Barbs in the game, it was also obvious that all AIs will have all 1st tier techs in no time, so Alpha didn't have any trade value. Oh, and we even had SGLs enabled- the Mongols eg rushed the Oracle early.
The reason why you want Pottery ASAP is not so much the urgent need for a Granary; with a high food start, you better pump out 2 or 3 Settlers before anyway. But, you want to start a minimum run on Writing, in the hope for some trade value; and during that time, you want to buy some other tech, not Pottery.

Ah, yes, barb is also a hard issue for sid. I should include it. If you know there is no barb, then you can expand madly without escort, and don't worry about tech from goody hut. OTOH, I just tried the 7+1 start (seed 45321 etc.), and found it easy to contact Mongols and trade for pottery and bronze working, and met France in another direction. Maybe even Sid AIs don't explore as fast as human. I saw that in some cases human used the 1st worker to explore and benefitted a lot!

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Maybe even Sid AIs don't explore as fast as human

One question: Do you have the NoAIPatrol=0 setting?

 

[Heroes]

One question: Do you have the NoAIPatrol=0 setting?

Sorry, but what is NoAIPatrol=0?

 

[Own]

In you conquests ini file (titled conquests) in your C drive/programfiles/infogramesinteractive/civ3/conquests folder, which is a text file, type in at the bottom, NoAIPatrol=0. It makes AI units wander around more.

 

[Heroes]

In you conquests ini file (titled conquests) in your C drive/programfiles/infogramesinteractive/civ3/conquests folder, which is a text file, type in at the bottom, NoAIPatrol=0. It makes AI units wander around more.

I didn't edit any file. Is NoAIPatrol=0 exploitive, or am I misunderstanding sth?

 

[Own]

No, it's actually considered exploitive not to have it, because it fixes barbarians.

 

[Heroes]

No, it's actually considered exploitive not to have it, because it fixes barbarians.

$#@ So it's better to have it? What's its effect? Let AIs and barbs explore faster?