Is this game lost?

Hi all, Attempting Monarch for the first time and I've been hit big by 2 AI players whilst my ally is faltering badly. Is this game lost (or could someone save it?)
Probably not, but I haven't opened the save. My wife's laptop is a Civ3 Free Zone and since I am helping her today in a craft sale and my duty station is in the kitchen keeping watch over the cookies, coffee and hot apple cider, I can't just dive into your game like I would want to.

And welcome to the forum, Amalgamator!

:dance: :woohoo: :bounce:
 
This is beyond my skill level at the moment. However, I'm sure someone else will be able to turn your game around.

There are several things you need to improve.

- You have 13 cities but only 5 workers. You need far, far more workers to help improve your core cities.

- You have 3 cities that are in disorder. Place more entertainers in those cities and micromanage each city every turn to prevent more cities from falling into disorder. Some of them don't have marketplaces. Build them when you get the chance.

You are at war on two fronts. It looks like you bit off more than you could chew. Your armies are weak compared to the civs you are at war with and some of your cities are completely undefended. Try to make peace with at least one of the civs and focus attacking the other.

I retired the game to see your progress in the beginning. It appeared you spent time trying to build cultural improvements in your cities instead of expanding. Bad idea. You should always expand as much as possible by building more cities first then start working on cultural improvements.
 
@MrRandomGuy: Good advice! I went ahead and did some micromanagement of the empire without moving any military.

Edoras is wasting a lot of food and getting 9 shields per turn. I put more guys on desert tiles to get more shields - you get a Medieval Infantry in 2 turns instead of a Pikeman in 2.

Mordor is rioting and wasting food; I hire one clown and five scientists to make the city more useful.

Helm's Deep looks good for now - but you'll want to chop some of those forests to open up more grassland tiles relatively soon.

Minas Tirith is wasting food and lacking shields; I steal some tiles from Minas Morgul and end up working the cow, a plains, the two mountains, and the two bonus grasslands next to the city. The marketplace will complete in one turn instead of two.

South Rohan is at 9 shields per turn - not the best for producing Medieval Infantry. I lost track of where I started, but I ended up at 10 shields per turn by working both forests, both irrigated grasslands, and three mined grasslands. Speaking of Medieval Infantry, there's no Barracks in that city, so I change production (veteran troops are worth so much more than regulars that it's really not worth building regulars). First I change production to a Worker and rush it, though - that gets us to 10 shields in the bin so only three more turns to go on a Barracks.

The Grey Havens and The Westfold also switch to Barracks.

Gondor just needs to stop rioting, so I hire a scientist away from the flood plains tile. Next turn it'll produce 22 food, so it'll keep growing, and it'll complete a Pikeman.

The Great Fields works another Coastal tile; it'll still complete its Marketplace in one turn and gets some extra Commerce out of the deal.

Gergovia switches to work on a Pikeman. I hate to build one there without a Barracks, but enough Germans are nearby that you might need to rush him this turn.

Minas Morgul is rioting, so I took all the workers off tiles in order to clear them up for Minas Tirith, then just clicked the center square to reassign them.

Pelennor Fields changes to a Barracks; it really doesn't need a Temple IMO.

Sourtherner Rohan looks like it might fall next turn. I switch it to Walls; you might want to rush those to help weather England's attacks.

Cataractonium changes to a Trebuchet.

Portugal lacks Invention, so I trade that and Monotheism for Monarchy. Being able to build Longbows will help them fight against the English.

For the war, I have to ask: The German Galley near The Westfold, did it drop off troops anywhere? If it's empty now, you have less to fear. Either way, I'd pull the three Gallic Swords in The Westfold and The Great Fields down towards Edoras; they can attack the German stack there next turn. It would be prudent to short-rush the mace in Edoras so he's available next turn (in case you haven't heard of short-rushing, switch production to Horseman, rush, then switch back to Medieval Infantry).
For England, I'd pull the Catapults and Pike from South Rohan to the tile just north of Southerner Rohan's Gold mountain and bombard the stack, then attack with the Medieval Infantry Army (attack from inside the city).
I'd probably also pull the Medieval Infantry in Helm's Deep into the Army there and use him to attack once, too, but that would depend on how the first attack went. A Gallic Sword army is tempting for its 3 movement.

Amalgamator, do you mind if I play a few turns and post the results here?
 
I decided to make a picture of what his empire currently looks like:

3fZbD5X.png


A pretty dire situation, as others have described. Elephantium's suggestions are all fairly good, and I think I'll suggest some things to do with your military:

1. Move the Gallic Swordsman in Southerner Rohan out. He's not going to be much more than a speed bump to that stack of English units. You might just want to consider abandoning the city entirely, though you could also move the catapult stack South, bombard the English, and hit them with the MDI Army.

2. Take Gallic Swordsmen that you took out of Southerner Rohan and two more (probably the ones in the East) and put them in that empty army.

3. That Galley might be a threat, but the German stack is certainly a threat, so you might want to move some of your units in the West towards them.

4. Consider gifting Pelennor fields to Portugal, the city doesn't give you much and it will make the Spear in it teleport back to Edoras where he'll be much more useful.

5. Try your best to hold the English and Germans off until they'll talk peace, then sign peace with them. You can't handle this war at this point; you need time to build up your military.

On a note of infrastructure, I notice you have lots of temples and some few marketplaces, but few barracks and granaries. You should pretty much always build Barracks and Granaries before other AA buildings, at least in your core cities, with Harbors also high on the priority list in coastal cities and Aqueducts in cities without fresh water that need to grow past size 6. Admittedly, being a Religious Civilization gives you cheap Temples, but the boost they give to Happiness and Culture isn't nearly as important as building the buildings that let your cities grow faster (Granaries, and Harbors and Aqueducts in some cases) or make sure your core cities are giving you tougher units (Barracks).

You also need to build units, of course, but that can usually wait until after you've built barracks.
 
Random, unordered thoughts on your game.

You've got a two front war with people who don't want to acknowledge your envoy. Not good. You've got a Military Alliance with Portugal vs. England for another 14 turns, which means if you make peace with England before the 14 turns are done, you break your agreement with Portugal, and that can have effects the rest of the game.

Of the two foes, England looks to be the more dangerours. Germany's stack is rather small and can be whittled down before it can do any damage. England is already doing damage. Southerner Rohan looks lost but Elephantium may be able to save it. England may have destroyed Russia since Moscow and St. Petersburg are both English.

I would try to make peace with Germany first and expect to slug things out with England until the MA expires and then make peace. And get things straightened out.

You are going for a Conquest win yet your government is Republic. Monarchy might be a better option since it has no War Weariness. Or maybe not. You have four luxuries connected and that will help a lot, once you get markets in your core cities.

Five workers and eight slaves is not near enough support staff. A good rule of thumb is at least one worker per city. At least one per city; two is even better. That would allow you to have worker stackers that could move into a tile and do something (mine/road) in less time than a single worker. Three workers working solo will road three grass tiles faster than a stack of three workers attempting to do the same. But if you need to road directly from The Great Fields to Pelennor Fields, a distance of three tiles, having stacked workers is the way to go.

Others have spoken about your military and you yourself know that something went wrong, or you wouldn't have posted a save and asked for help. Which is the smart thing to do. You do need barracks and you need them early. Barracks produce veteran units, which are sturdier in combat (the AI uses a lot of regulars units) and promote to Elite in reasonable numbers. The first few units you build won't be veteran but as soon as you get that thing built, only build vets when you build units.

General George S. Patton said:
No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.

That applies in Civ3 too.

Veteran units are more likely to survive combat and can heal and be used again, which makes them more effective. They get to kill more units. Units that don't survive combat means that they have to replaced and get built from scratch and then moved to the front lines, all which takes time. Wounded units can get back into action much faster than training up the newly commissioned 31st Sword Divison.

Also, the way the AI rates the military is based on Attack factors/Attack points and not on Defense. Thus, if your military is all Archers (2.1.1 units) you will appear to the AI to be stronger than an all Spears military (1.2.1). This factors into how the military advisors ranks our nations armies compared to yours.

I do think you are in a tough spot. I do not think the game is lost.

This thread might be helpful, too: Recovering from Last Place after Expansion Phase, Step by Step.
 
Also, the way the AI rates the military is based on Attack factors/Attack points and not on Defense. Thus, if your military is all Archers (2.1.1 units) you will appear to the AI to be stronger than an all Spears military (1.2.1). This factors into how the military advisors ranks our nations armies compared to yours.

I think defense does factor in a little- for instance, I'm fairly certain an all-Spears military will look stronger than an all-Warriors military- but attack matters more.

Also, because of the AI's incoherent attack patterns, attacking their stacks is usually a better way of killing their units than waiting for them to attack your defensive units.
 
Wow, this is some definite eye opening advice!

For the history of what happened before the present catastrophic two front war, The Celts used to own Hobbiton in the west which served as a good choke point against German advances. On the power histograph thing we were equal with England and better than Germany. There had previously been a war with Germany that we had easily absorbed with a stack of gallic swordsman.

We decided to attack the English and get an alliance with Portugal because it seemed inevitable that England were going to attack - they kept on asking for things and Portugal looked like it was going down (think they only had three cities left). Little did the Celtic Government know that it would get attacked by Germany almost immediately after (when all forces were diverted to the southern front.

Short rushing is something completely new to me (even after 10 years of playing - doh!)

So as a rule in order of building - Barracks-Granary-Marketplace-Temple? Though building military is priority.

Is there any general rules on fighting a two front war? Or is my lack of good micromanagement/building holding me back in general? Fighting a war with one AI seems manageable (Portugal were dispatched) but England and Germany are in full on overwhelming mode.

Elephantium feel free to play on, these suggestions have given me new hope!
 
So as a rule in order of building - Barracks-Granary-Marketplace-Temple? Though building military is priority.
Except in cultural or Always War (AW) games, I don't build temples. Generally I tend to go barracks/granary as first build in my first 20 cities, depending on the general tenor of the game. Capital gets the barracks first to get some vWarriors onto the map and scouting around. Second city is probably barracks first. Third city too, though by now the explored territory gives me some leeway and granary might be built first, followed by barracks.

However, even if city 3 doesn't build a barracks right away, it probably has veteran units defending it.

Core cities will get barracks, granary, aqueduct as needed and then library/market. But I don't let my cities produce all libraries at one time; I stagger their production will military, building maybe three at one time. That way I can protect what I have built.

Temples have their uses but overall can be safely ignored. Build them when you need them, but they are not needed very often. Libraries give more culture per turn, which causes border expansion to occur sooner, and, depending on the science rate, can also contribute to learning techs faster.
 
I love it when someone asks about temples. It gives me the opportunity to quote one of my all-time favorite CivFanatics posts:

Temples...temples...priests are prevaricating parasites who pillage the body politic.

You want culture, build libraries. You get something back from the investment.

You want content citizens, build marketplaces, trade for luxuries, build towns for luxuries, build colonies for luxuries.

If happiness is a problem in a settler or worker farm, it is a self-limiting problem. Raise the luxury tax, hire an MP, you only need to make the expenditure for a couple of turns. Temples are with you forever and are a permanent drag on the economy.

Understatement...bah!
 
Aabraxan I was a fan of Bede, but a few things in his quote are not right.

1- no colonies, except in an extreme rare situation. Surely never for a lux.
2- MP, not in all governments. Republic has no MP affect.
 
And he's Religious, which means he can build Temples cheaply, which makes them a bit more worth it than for non-religious civilizations. They're also available a bit before Libraries if you really need the culture before you can research Literature (Which, for some reason, he hasn't).

I usually like to build Barracks first, always Barracks first in my capital (after making a few Warriors for defense against barbs and exploration), sometimes Granary first in some of the other cities.
 
A New Hope!

Having taken onboard suggestions, I decided to have a stab at going on with the game which I thought was long lost.

Peace with both Germany and England was first on the agenda, and luckily enough I only managed to lose a couple to the Germans and none to the English. They both definitely could have razed the Celts to the ground, but why didn't they? Germany did take a lot of gold per turn, gold and workers, but I don't really think it was worth not taking the capital.

The following period of peace was big troop build up time - switched to Monarchy to help with that.. and then decided to take Portugal's two northern cities as one of them had horses and to be honest, I felt the Celtic people needed to get some morale boosting victories after getting dispatched by everyone else.

After taking those Portugal got wiped out down south, and I massed an army on Germany's borders praying England wouldn't declare war. And luckily enough they didn't. Is there a way to keep an AI sweet like gpt deals or giving them luxuries in deals? Or just hope? I stacked up musketmen but would that have deterred them?

Luck or otherwise, I launched a mass trebuchet-musketman-med inf army out against Germany which wreaked havoc and took many cities. The end result is in the save below.

Also Literature! I traded it with the Dutch who I sailed a boat over to establish communications. The French have also been found. I've got a feeling a big showdown with England is coming, and not sure if the musketmen can hold out..
 

Attachments

Peace with both Germany and England was first on the agenda, and luckily enough I only managed to lose a couple to the Germans and none to the English. They both definitely could have razed the Celts to the ground, but why didn't they? Germany did take a lot of gold per turn, gold and workers, but I don't really think it was worth not taking the capital.

Really? Nothing to the English, not even Southerner Rohan? That's amazing.

They didn't raze you to the ground because the AI, unlike human players, will both declare war and sign peace at the drop of a hat.

Is there a way to keep an AI sweet like gpt deals or giving them luxuries in deals? Or just hope? I stacked up musketmen but would that have deterred them?

Giving the AI gpt or luxuries will make them less likely to declare war, as will having a strong military. ;)

I haven't looked at the new save yet, will look at it and post back here with my comments.
 
Scratch that first part, I see that Southerner Rohan was razed and replaced by a new city.

Thoughts:

1. You still don't have enough Workers, and you're still building military units in cities without Barracks, which generally isn't a good idea at this point in the game. You also only have 2 Granaries, but I wouldn't actually recommend building any more at this point- Berlin has the Pyramids, so capture it and you'll get Granaries in all of your cities for free.

2. Your Musketmen and your Treb/Catapult Stack are impressive, but you need to build more offensive units. You currently only have 10 MDI's (6 of which are in armies), 1 Gallic Swordsman, and 2 Knights in an Army, and there's a huge number of English units on your borders.

3. You have two injured fortified Galleys. Naval units only heal in port, so I'd send them into a city and give them some time to heal.

4. Minas Morgul and Mordor both have way more food than they will ever need, on account of the impressive amount of flood plains in the area, so you might want to mine the tiles that aren't FP's or Deserts (I might even suggest mining deserts, but you're Agricultural so it's probably better for you to irrigate the deserts) They also both employ a specialist that would maybe be better served working a tile.

5. You still don't have Harbors in most of your coastal cities and a ton of your cities are capped at size 6 because they lack Aqueducts. Don't build them all at once, but take a few of them off military units so that you can build Harbors and Aqueducts so your cities can get bigger. The increased commerce and production will be well worth it.

As for future war plans, I'd suggest taking a bit more time to finish off Germany (or at least take Berlin and Leipzig for the Pyramids and Leonardo's Workshop- the Pyramids are great, and Leo's Workshop is one of the best wonders in the game). I wouldn't commit any more of your forces over there, though- two MDI armies and a stack of artillery units should completely destroy anything they throw at you. In fact, I might send some of them towards England to prepare for their inevitable declaration of war. I'd also suggest getting embassies with the Dutch and French so that you can get allies when the war happens- they might not be able to help you much, but it greatly decreases the likelyhood that you'll fight a two-front war.
 
Aabraxan I was a fan of Bede, but a few things in his quote are not right.

1- no colonies, except in an extreme rare situation. Surely never for a lux.
2- MP, not in all governments. Republic has no MP affect.
Oh, I agree, in truth. I don't recall the last time I built a colony. I think the point is that there are other (often better) options for culture and happiness, as compared to temples. Naturally, for culture games are a different story.
 
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