Isaac and the Wonders? What to do with our Sci Leader

[GenMarshall]

In the recent turnchat, we have entered in a new age after the discovery of currency. When I came to discover that we have Isaac Newton in Camelot, I noticed that there was noting regarding the discussons on what to do with a sci leader nor anything to do with wonders.

Please discuss on what to do with our sci leader.

 

[Octavian X]

First off, I'll eliminate an Age of Science as an option. It's useless under regular circumstances, and even more so given our minimum science research rate.

That said, we can only build the Great Wall Great Wonder currently with an SGL rush. That's also pretty useless, in my opinion. As a note, the Great Wall in C3C places free walls in all our continental cities.

That said, our best option is to wait it out for one of the four (!) wonders that will be available soon: Sistine Chapel, Knights Templar, Leonardo's Workshop, and the Great Library. (In C3C, the Knights Templar produces every five turns a Crusader unit, with stats of 5/3/1).

We can eliminate the Great Library as well - it expires with education, and is pretty much useless to us given our tech lead.

This leaves Sistine, Knights Templar, and Leonardo's. I prefer the Sistine Chapel. It provides 6 culture, and doubles the effectiveness of Cathedrals. Given our goal for a culture win, we'll need that 6 culture per turn. Also, we'll end up building lots of Cathedrals for their cultural value - we might as well make them more effective.

 

[DaveShack]

CG, thanks for getting this started.

There are two major choices, either use Sir Isaac now to rush the Great Wall, or save him for a future need.

The Great Wall is not especially powerful as a wonder, though it does give walls in all continental cities, which is all cities. The main advantage of choosing this wonder would be to prevent one of our future victims from getting it.

Stockpiling in C3C is no longer the blunder it is in Vanilla or PTW. It is possible, though unlikely, to get more than one SGL at a time. There are several powerful choices for waiting to put Sir Isaac's talents to use until later, all involving researching the requisite tech and then rushing as soon as the wonder is unlocked.

• Knights Templar -- creates a crusader (5/3/1, +1hp) every 5 turns
• Leo's Workshop (1/2 upgrade costs)
• Great Library (learn anything two others know, so research could be turned off until Education)
• Hanging Gardens -- happieness+1 in all cities
• Sistine Chapel -- doubles effects of cathedrals
• Sun Tsu's -- free barracks in every city

 

[Nobody]

What about sun tzus (just puting it in there)

 

[MOTH]

Previous discussion has indicate a preference for Sun Tzu's. We will be war mongering for a while in this game and the free barracks are worth a real lot.

Sistine's is not worthwhile when going for 130K as the 6 cpt is easily offset by 4 temples in acquired cities.

 

[DaveShack]

Remember there is a distinction here between manual build and SGL rushing. We're not sinking shields into a build, and in fact one consideration is to choose something really expensive to get the most benefit. Also with an instant build the doubling effect kicks in that much sooner.

 

[greekguy]

i don't think sun tzu's is a good idea, since most of our cities already have barracks. i'd use the SGL for Leo's. it will make upgrading a lot cheaper and since it is really expensive (600, i think) it would mean we get it, no problem. sistine chapel is good also, especially for our goal of culture victory, but i think a pre-build of palace for it somewhere will get it for us somewhat easily.

 

[Black_Hole]

go sun tzus, free barracks in all continental cities(and this is pangea), it is great for war... Wonders are only really needed for 20k imo, temples & libraries are much better if we want a 130k win

 

[Curufinwe]

I really favour the sistine chapel, as it will encourage us in the future to build more cathedrals, placing a natural preference towards supporting culture, especially good if we're going for a culture win.

 

[RegentMan]

Waiting to rush a wonder is a must, but I can see each side for Leo's, Sistine, and Sun Tzu's.

 

[Chieftess]

SunTzu is powerful on a pangaea. You don't have to build barracks in cities you capture. That also means better healing in cities you capture.

 

[Nobody]

if we want to wait for ages i like adam smiths, but it might be better to use it fast and have a chance to get another one.

 

[DaveShack]

I think realistically we are down to 4 choices: SunTsu, Leo's, Knights Templar, Sistine Chapel. These require tech as follows: Feudalism only; Feudalism+Engineering+Invention; Feudalism+Monotheism+Chivalry; Monotheism+Theology.

We can use the SGL discussion to drive technology, or run the two decisions separately and just hold on to the SGL until the tech we need for the chosen wonder is available.

The runoff for next tech to research is between Monotheism and Engineering because we don't want to help the Netherlands get Feudalism early. We are probably safe from competition as long as nobody gets the tech for the one we want prior to cascading off the Great Wall, so a less than optimum tech path may still be ok.

Let's continue discussion on two points:

Which wonder do you want after considering how long it will be till we get there?

Should this decision drive the tech? Should tech be free to ignore this decision?

 

[Chieftess]

if we want to wait for ages i like adam smiths, but it might be better to use it fast and have a chance to get another one.

You can have more than 1 SGL at once.

 

[classical_hero]

I would prefer to get the Sistine chapel by the SGL. One good reason for this is so that we can delay the research of Feudalism. The Great Wall is not an option because because it is too cheap an option to waste a SGL on. With Education around the corner, The Greeat Library is not an option. So only four wonders are available to us. I would rule out Knights Templar because the unit that you get out it is not as good as getting an AC. If Crusaders were a fast unit, like in Civ2, then it would be a much more useful option. Three are at a shield value of 600 which makes them great value for us to use the SGL. All of these three are great choices, but which one is best for us to use. Sun Szu's Art of War gives us barracks for free. This is very useful ona Pangea map, but since we can build barracks ourselves, it is not a totally nessecary Wonder, a very useful wonder, but not one I would use a SGL on. I would prefer that we start a Prebuild on it instead. It is a wonder that you can afford to miss out on. That leaves us with either Leonardo's Workshop or Sistine Chapel. Both are wonders with effects that you cannot get with buildings. But that i mean that they are not free buildings but helps to other buildings. Now I will list a list of Pros and Cons for each wonder.

Sistine Chapel.
Pros
It doubles the effect of Cathedrals. We would have six more content people that otherwise we would have. This is very useful for a peaceful or warring nation.
It provides us with six culture that will double once it has been around for over 1000 years.
The Tech Path is cheaper. The estimated cost to get to Theology is 3040 compared to 4480 gold. Well that's according to Civassist.
Cons.
If we are going to start being more a warring nation then this wonder is not as useful as the other one. I really could not find too much wrong with this wonder. It is really a case of if the Pros of the other wonder outweighs this one.

Leonardo's Workshop.
Pros.
Half priced upgrades. This is gret news in anyones language.
This is a great wonder for warfare. Less money spent on upgrades means you have a huge advantage over the AI. Don't forget that upgrades are now 3 times the difference in gold, in than in , where upgrades cost only two times.
Cons.
Much more expensive tech path.

My preferred option is Sistine Chapel. I would prefer the others to be started with prebuilds instead. One thing we must not get into is a wonder Cascade.

 

[classical_hero]

@ CivGeneral. Which TC are you talking about, because the most recent one I know of, we have not finished researching currency yet?

 

[MOTH]

@ch, We have finished currency and that is where we recieved Sir Newton. We have 0 turns invested in the next tech (currently Engineering).

Sun Tzu's is the most valuable in terms of economic value. Its worth 5 gpt in maintenence savings in our existing empire. Its also saves us the cost of building a barracks in new cities and the ongoing maintenence.

Sistine's is not worth it as we are unlikely to build any significant number of cathedrals in this game (mybe 6-10 in our core cities. We are also unlikely to grow pst size 12 so happiness will not be an issue.

 

[RoboPig]

We should rush sun tzu. It would save us the time since we would not have to build all those barracks. Also we could upgrade all our troops when we have enough cash, which would save us time again since we would not have to build our units again to have a nice defence

 

[classical_hero]

@ Moth, the last save from the most recent TC has one turn of currency left. If we have played beyond that, then could you please point me to the most recent save.

 

[Furiey]

The most recent turnchat is this one, (held last night GMT) although there was a very low turnout. The save here (570BC) has definitely completed Currency and generated the Scientific Leader Sir Issac Newton, hence the discussion.