Islam on the rise in The Netherlands

[Stapel]

5,8% (945.000) of our population was muslim in the beginning of 2004.

It's quite divided though. In rural area, hardly anyone is muslim, in A'dam it is 13%, The Hague 11.4% and Rotterdam 10%. It's not really surprising. In my own neighbourhood (in The Hague) it might be roughly 50%.

I'm not sure what to think of it. I think religion is one of the biggest contributors of backwardness. 50% of the population is not religious (that's almost 55-60% of the autochtone population.
We have effectively decreased the powers of calvinism in the north and catholicism in the south, save a few backward villages like Staphorst, Rijssen and some Veluwe villages.
Those who are religious, are usually moderate, and dogmatic.

If we make progress, but that progress is slowed down by a new religion, with many relatively dogmatic followers, I consider it a step back.

 

[stormbind]

When you weaken one culture, you make the land a neutral ground for other cultures.

 

[Stapel]

When you weaken one culture, you make the land a neutral ground for other cultures.

Generally, I like that. Different kinds of food, new forms of art for example. But when it comes to the rise of dogmatic religion.....

 

[storealex]

Europe should have closed it's borders to the Muslim world. The massive Muslim immigration to our cities have brougt us huge problems.

- 71% if all robberies in Copenhagen is conducted by people from the Muslem world.
- 37% on National level.

We have around 5% Muslims in Denmark. Imagine when that number reaches 10%. And yes, it[/I]will reach that number.
The average Muslim family has an unemployed father on welfare, an unemployed mother on welfare, four kids of whom at least one have been arrested before.
The welfare state cannot withstand 10% of the population behaving like this. Especially not when we have a demograhip crisis on our hands (Too many old people)

Two tourists have been stabbed to death in Copenhagen within less than one year. One Italian and one American. Both times it was people of Muslim heritage. It makes me feel ashamed of my country. People should be able to come here without getting stabbed to death!

And don't call me racist here. Im just giving you the facts. I have many Muslim friends, and my girlfriend is from Tjatjikistan, so I have more than a leg on the other side of the fence. Still I cant be blind and ignore what I see in the streets and which is afterwards confirmed in the news - that Muslim immigration have brougt us immense troubles

 

[Hitro]

The thing is, Stapel, that if you'd say that in a political campaign you would be reported as running a campaign on lies...

 

[kronic]

What's the number of muslims in Germany?

 

[Hitro]

What's the number of muslims in Germany?

According to islam.de who quote the Federal bureau of statistics there are about 3.2 million muslims in Germany.

 

[Masquerouge]

Europe should have closed it's borders to the Muslim world. The massive Muslim immigration to our cities have brougt us huge problems.

- 71% if all robberies in Copenhagen is conducted by people from the Muslem world.
- 37% on National level.

We have around 5% Muslims in Denmark. Imagine when that number reaches 10%. And yes, it[/I]will reach that number.
The average Muslim family has an unemployed father on welfare, an unemployed mother on welfare, four kids of whom at least one have been arrested before.
The welfare state cannot withstand 10% of the population behaving like this. Especially not when we have a demograhip crisis on our hands (Too many old people)

Two tourists have been stabbed to death in Copenhagen within less than one year. One Italian and one American. Both times it was people of Muslim heritage. It makes me feel ashamed of my country. People should be able to come here without getting stabbed to death!

And don't call me racist here. Im just giving you the facts. I have many Muslim friends, and my girlfriend is from Tjatjikistan, so I have more than a leg on the other side of the fence. Still I cant be blind and ignore what I see in the streets and which is afterwards confirmed in the news - that Muslim immigration have brougt us immense troubles

I don't agree at all.

It's not immigration that's the problem, it's poverty. If these people weren't poor, if they didn't live in ghettos, if they were well accepted, maybe they wouldn't fall for a life of crime.

And why do you say "Muslim" immigration ? What make Muslim migrants differs from portuguese migrants, italian migrants, african migrants ?
These people might pose a problem now, but IMHO they do nothing but reflect a country's inadaptability to accept other cultures.
You're speaking of having too many old people ? Well, migrants usually have more children than non migrants, in Europe. So who's going to pay for those elder's pensions ?
When Italian migrated in France in the early 20th century, everybody said they brought along crime and violence.
Then Polish came, same story.
Now North-African migrants, same story.

Oh, and by the way in France we have a bit more than your dreaded 10% of migrants. Sure, we have some problems, but we have not imploded yet.

 

[Hitro]

What make Muslim migrants differs from portuguese migrants, italian migrants, african migrants ?

Usually the degree of integration into society. Can't comment on African immigrants because they don't come here in comparative numbers. The muslim immigrants, Turks and Arabs mostly in Germany, tend to live in neighbourhoods amoung other muslims. Neighbourhoods where their language is spoken exclusively which prevents them from learning the local language. The same can't be said about Italian, Portuguese or Greek immigrants that also live in great numbers in Germany and that also used to be mainly poorer people.

And this shouldn't be surprising as the cultural differences between the muslim immigrants and the local culture are simply bigger than that between the local culture and the European immigrants. Religion is also a factor in that. If you join a local community (as a Christian, mostly) you are more likely to make contacts to people outside your immigrant group than if you form a new community alltogether.

The failed integration of immigrants, mainly those of muslim countries, is a realistic problem in Western Europe, and although scaremongering of the right-wing kind is not the right way to address that the usual denial coming from the center and the left is neither.

 

[thestonesfan]

I don't agree at all.

It's not immigration that's the problem, it's poverty. If these people weren't poor, if they didn't live in ghettos, if they were well accepted, maybe they wouldn't fall for a life of crime.

And why do you say "Muslim" immigration ? What make Muslim migrants differs from portuguese migrants, italian migrants, african migrants ?
These people might pose a problem now, but IMHO they do nothing but reflect a country's inadaptability to accept other cultures.
You're speaking of having too many old people ? Well, migrants usually have more children than non migrants, in Europe. So who's going to pay for those elder's pensions ?
When Italian migrated in France in the early 20th century, everybody said they brought along crime and violence.
Then Polish came, same story.
Now North-African migrants, same story.

Oh, and by the way in France we have a bit more than your dreaded 10% of migrants. Sure, we have some problems, but we have not imploded yet.

You're missing his point. He's opposed to the religion taking root and gaining influence. I can certainly understand that.

 

[HannibalBarka]

Europe should have closed it's borders to the Muslim world. The massive Muslim immigration to our cities have brougt us huge problems.

- 71% if all robberies in Copenhagen is conducted by people from the Muslem world.
- 37% on National level.

We have around 5% Muslims in Denmark. Imagine when that number reaches 10%. And yes, it[/I]will reach that number.
The average Muslim family has an unemployed father on welfare, an unemployed mother on welfare, four kids of whom at least one have been arrested before.
The welfare state cannot withstand 10% of the population behaving like this. Especially not when we have a demograhip crisis on our hands (Too many old people)

Two tourists have been stabbed to death in Copenhagen within less than one year. One Italian and one American. Both times it was people of Muslim heritage. It makes me feel ashamed of my country. People should be able to come here without getting stabbed to death!

And don't call me racist here. Im just giving you the facts. I have many Muslim friends, and my girlfriend is from Tjatjikistan, so I have more than a leg on the other side of the fence. Still I cant be blind and ignore what I see in the streets and which is afterwards confirmed in the news - that Muslim immigration have brougt us immense troubles

I'll call you a racist until you show us where you found those "facts":
- 71% if all robberies in Copenhagen is conducted by people from the Muslem world.
- 37% on National level.
- The average Muslim family (ie at lesat 50% of them) has an unemployed father on welfare
- The average Muslim family has an unemployed mother on welfare
- The average Muslim family has four kids of whom at least one have been arrested before.
- Two tourists have been stabbed to death in Copenhagen within less than one year. How many murders were committed by "blue eyed" danish?

Spare us the "I have many Muslim friends", that's what Jean Marie Lepen says too. And considering that your girlfriend is from Tjatjikistan, I assume that "Muslim immigration haven't brougt you only "immense troubles", or you should find a new girlfriend

 

[Marla_Singer]

This is not an issue. My answer for this is simple. Just make kids, Europe needs kids, economically speaking, it's the best way to increase the domestic consumption and reduce the insane amount of money Europeans put aside in savings.

If Europeans were less scared of the future, I can bet you that growth will come again and we would experience once again a large period of economical prosperity. Europeans aren't enough confident in their strength. Changing this is the only thing which matters.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Spare us the "I have many Muslim friends", that's what Jean Marie Lepen says too. And considering that your girlfriend is from Tjatjikistan, I assume that "Muslim immigration haven't brougt you only "immense troubles", or you should find a new girlfriend

In English, we say :

Tajikistan

 

[The Last Conformist]

I'm not sure lacking confidence about the future is the reason Europeans don't have kids. We've created a society in which having kids is a big economic drain without much in the way of incentives.

(Incentives apart from whatever happiness you may derive from the simple fact of having children, I mean.)

 

[Steph]

My answer for this is simple. Just make kids, Europe needs kids, economically speaking, it's the best way to increase the domestic consumption and reduce the insane amount of money Europeans put aside in savings.

Do you volunteer ?

 

[Hitro]

I'm not sure lacking confidence about the future is the reason Europeans don't have kids. We've created a society in which having kids is a big economic drain without much in the way of incentives.

(Incentives apart from whatever happiness you may derive from the simple fact of having children, I mean.)

Absolutely true.

 

[storealex]

First of all, stop useing that vomit smiley. You don't know much about my country's situation, so please hesitate to vomit on what you do not understand.

I don't agree at all.
It's not immigration that's the problem, it's poverty. If these people weren't poor, if they didn't live in ghettos, if they were well accepted, maybe they wouldn't fall for a life of crime.

Wrong.

Reason 1:
Denmark is a rich Scandinavian welfare state. Here you don't have to work to get money. Once when I was a child both my parents was on welfare, and we were doing fine. Welfare does not make you rich, but here it does not make you really poor either.

Reason 2:
Most of the crimes commited have nothing to do with money. It's non-profitable violence or vandalization.

Reason 3: These people seek to live in the ghettos, along with other people of their kind. It's natural, people tend to live near their own kind.

And why do you say "Muslim" immigration ? What make Muslim migrants differs from portuguese migrants, italian migrants, african migrants ?

Because Muslims are the ones commiting the crime. We have tons of Asians here too, but you never see them making trouble.

These people might pose a problem now, but IMHO they do nothing but reflect a country's inadaptability to accept other cultures.

It's a two sided road. Of course we could have done better in integration these people, and of course these people could have done more to respect the laws of their host, but done is done. Now let's close the borders so the problem does not grow out of our hands.

You're speaking of having too many old people ? Well, migrants usually have more children than non migrants, in Europe. So who's going to pay for those elder's pensions ?

Not the immigrants. They're on welfare remember?

Oh, and by the way in France we have a bit more than your dreaded 10% of migrants. Sure, we have some problems, but we have not imploded yet.

Yet it grows worse every year in France too does it not? Besides, Denmark also have 10%. It's the Muslims that compose the 5%.

 

[Stapel]

I think the extraordinary crime rates among immigrants (usually muslims) is caused byu the simple fatc that it is impossible to import people from the hellholes on earth into a social welfare state.

Either don't get them, or stop the welfare state. I prefer the latter .

 

[Rik Meleet]

I think religion is one of the biggest contributors of backwardness.

Not neccessarily. If someone thinks hard and long about joining a religion, it is certainly not a backwardly made choice.
If someone was given a religion at birth (thus involuntarily) it is usually something taken for granted and not thought of about by that person. Just blindly accepting the Religion and swallowing its traditional beliefs is a sign of backwardness. That is not the monopoly-area of religion; accepting anything without thinking about it is a sign of backwardness. I do agree that religion is an aspect that groups of people tend to blindly accept but to claim that "religion is one of the biggest contributors of backwardness" goes too far for me, way too far.

 

[Hitro]

I think the extraordinary crime rates among immigrants (usually muslims) is caused byu the simple fatc that it is impossible to import people from the hellholes on earth into a social welfare state.

Either don't get them, or stop the welfare state. I prefer the latter .

You might rethink that when they loot your home after beating you up. Now at least you might get away with just being beaten up. :npdhereicome