It seems many UUs dont replace any other unit

[stealth_nsk]

But there's no reason to think that harbors can't be pillaged same as other districts. So if your only access to the sea is through harbors, then your naval power is at a very real risk.

This change actually makes me think Navy's are stronger - as now they can actually blockade your ports of call with little-to-no risk of retaliation from anything other than the navy as harbors can't fire like a city could. So really, all you need to do is defeat an enemy navy, destroy their harbors, and they'd never be able to take the ocean back from you.

If your city and/or encampment are near harbor and you have walls, you surely could retaliate. But surely it's not as strong as city itself.

 

[stiiknafuulia]

If your city and/or encampment are near harbor and you have walls, you surely could retaliate. But surely it's not as strong as city itself.

Encampment as a coastal fortress... I like it! They could even go as far as alter its graphic on the side that faces the ocean.

 

[SJSerio]

I think that the regular UU's will replace standard units, however, units given by bonuses will not replace any unit. I just think that we haven't found which units each one replaces yet. To me, it does not make sense that some civilizations will have UUs that replace a standard unit while others don't. That is my take on it, anyway, until we find out officially one way or the other.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I think that the regular UU's will replace standard units, however, units given by bonuses will not replace any unit. I just think that we haven't found which units each one replaces yet. To me, it does not make sense that some civilizations will have UUs that replace a standard unit while others don't. That is my take on it, anyway, until we find out officially one way or the other.

In the build we've seen, it's totally clear what some UU replace existing units and some don't.

Also, I don't see any logical problems here. Civilizations are balanced as a whole, not unit-by-unit, building-by-building. It's totally ok for some civs to have additional units.

And also, in Civ5 by the end of its existence we had huge amount of units with nearly each epoch having a unit of each class. For Civ6 it's not the case as units generally have upgrades each other tech, so many niches are empty. There's no Industrial gunpowder unit, for example, so Redcoats and Imperial Guards jump in, or there is no medieval foot melee unit - the place for Samurai.

 

[SJSerio]

In the build we've seen, it's totally clear what some UU replace existing units and some don't.

Also, I don't see any logical problems here. Civilizations are balanced as a whole, not unit-by-unit, building-by-building. It's totally ok for some civs to have additional units.

And also, in Civ5 by the end of its existence we had huge amount of units with nearly each epoch having a unit of each class. For Civ6 it's not the case as units generally have upgrades each other tech, so many niches are empty. There's no Industrial gunpowder unit, for example, so Redcoats and Imperial Guards jump in, or there is no medieval foot melee unit - the place for Samurai.

That doesn't necessarily mean that the Units don't replace anything, the game IS still in production. I am sure that they wanted the unique units demonstrated and that is why some may not have "replaced" anything. As far as units that don't replace anything, that is what I am saying about the ability units (like the Rough Riders). Still, it doesn't make sense to me that some civs would have regular UUs that replace other units and other civs regular UUs are just additions.

 

[Lucius_]

We have ironclads, unlocked with steam power, same as in Civ V. Sorry if my last post wasn't clear. I was suggesting a weaker battleship unit between ironclad and dreadnought. Not going to happen, but it would have made for an interesting naval war game.

On Arioch's Well of Souls website, he has ironclads listed as 'ranged naval', if that is correct then they have been changed to the ranged line and now there is no Industrial melee naval ship.

 

[gfeier]

On Arioch's Well of Souls website, he has ironclads listed as 'ranged naval', if that is correct then they have been changed to the ranged line and now there is no Industrial melee naval ship.

Doesn't sound quite right to me. I sent Arioch an email to confirm it.

 

[Dragonflow]

Honestly the idea of certain UUs not being tied to an existing unit as their replacement is quite nice. It allows for more flexibility as far as civ design is concerned.

Back in Civ5 it kinda bothered me that the Cataphract was a horseman replacement, now with the way Civ6 handles UU it could occupy a slot between horsemen and knights. Similarly the Carolean was an oddly placed rifleman replacement, now it could occupy a spot in between musketmen and riflemen like the Redcoats do.

 

[King Jason]

If your city and/or encampment are near harbor and you have walls, you surely could retaliate. But surely it's not as strong as city itself.

Cities and encampments have a range of two so, by "near", you mean "on". The encampment works - but the city doesn't because then you have a coastal city.

However, with the encampment now you're spending two districts to invest in ocean supremacy instead of... just building the city on the ocean. Further, you also have to factor in the strategic cost of the the positioning of the district. What if your land enemies are to the east but your coast is to the west? (with more continents/enemies to the west)

Now you're sacrificing land defense for sea defense.

I think that the regular UU's will replace standard units, however, units given by bonuses will not replace any unit. I just think that we haven't found which units each one replaces yet. To me, it does not make sense that some civilizations will have UUs that replace a standard unit while others don't. That is my take on it, anyway, until we find out officially one way or the other.

Except that we have.

Spoiler :

I already provided the list. The footage we have access to suggests that UUs specifically state when they replace a unit. The only questionable ones are the Redcoat because England's tooltip does not specifically describe the unit, so it could theoretically replace the musketman but be unlocked at a later point; Also the saka horse archer, as we don't know if it replaces the heavy chariot or not.

On Arioch's Well of Souls website, he has ironclads listed as 'ranged naval', if that is correct then they have been changed to the ranged line and now there is no Industrial melee naval ship.

Arioch had a theory that melee naval units' models were represented by multiple ships, and ranged ships were a single model. I imagine he listed any single-ship unit as ranged. I believe that idea has since been debunked, though.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Also the saka horse archer, as we don't know if it replaces the heavy chariot or not.

In the video it coexisted with Heavy Chariot in building list. It could replace Slinger, which wasn't in the list - but much more likely it was because Archer was already there. So, it's quite safe to assume Saka Horse Archers don't replace anything.

 

[King Jason]

In the video it coexisted with Heavy Chariot in building list. It could replace Slinger, which wasn't in the list - but much more likely it was because Archer was already there. So, it's quite safe to assume Saka Horse Archers don't replace anything.

Good catch, noted. As someone who posted the shot of the new U.I. icons in the screenshot thread - I didn't think to go back and consult that list.

 

[gfeier]

Cities and encampments have a range of two so, by "near", you mean "on". The encampment works - but the city doesn't because then you have a coastal city.

However, with the encampment now you're spending two districts to invest in ocean supremacy instead of... just building the city on the ocean. Further, you also have to factor in the strategic cost of the the positioning of the district. What if your land enemies are to the east but your coast is to the west? (with more continents/enemies to the west)

Now you're sacrificing land defense for sea defense.



Except that we have.

Spoiler :

I already provided the list. The footage we have access to suggests that UUs specifically state when they replace a unit. The only questionable ones are the Redcoat because England's tooltip does not specifically describe the unit, so it could theoretically replace the musketman but be unlocked at a later point; Also the saka horse archer, as we don't know if it replaces the heavy chariot or not.


Arioch had a theory that melee naval units' models were represented by multiple ships, and ranged ships were a single model. I imagine he listed any single-ship unit as ranged. I believe that idea has since been debunked, though.

I received a response from Arioch and he did, in fact, base his assumption that ironclads will be ranged units on the artwork, so the jury is still out.

 

[SJSerio]

Except that we have.

Spoiler :

And Again... that doesn't mean that it is final. The game is still in development and they possibly didn't update all of that... maybe they are still working on who they are replacing. It could be that they are still working on the units that some of the UUs are replacing and they just wanted to showcase the UUs of the Civilizations that they have shown for those builds.

Again, I am not saying that you are wrong, but it is too early to know for sure. The developers and the YouTubers and previewers have all stated that things are subject to change.

 

[Lucius_]

And Again... that doesn't mean that it is final. The game is still in development and they possibly didn't update all of that... maybe they are still working on who they are replacing. It could be that they are still working on the units that some of the UUs are replacing and they just wanted to showcase the UUs of the Civilizations that they have shown for those builds.

Again, I am not saying that you are wrong, but it is too early to know for sure. The developers and the YouTubers and previewers have all stated that things are subject to change.

I agree things are subject to change, but I feel like Firaxis wouldn't showcase a civ if they were unsure of where their UU would go as a replacement or not. I'm not saying that it would be impossible, but I find it unlikely.

 

[SJSerio]

I agree things are subject to change, but I feel like Firaxis wouldn't showcase a civ if they were unsure of where their UU would go as a replacement or not. I'm not saying that it would be impossible, but I find it unlikely.

I understand why people believe that some UU's aren't replacing anything. Buy my point is that it just seem unbalanced if some civilizations' UUs replace a unit and others don't. The UUs added by a special ability are different because that is tied to the special ability. However, the "regular" UUs would be an imbalance if some civilizations have a UU that replaces a standard unit, but other civilizations get all of the standard units plus their UU.

 

[Siptah]

Maybe some UU's do replace other units but not at the same time, like the danish berserk in Civ 5?

 

[CIVtube]

I understand why people believe that some UU's aren't replacing anything. Buy my point is that it just seem unbalanced if some civilizations' UUs replace a unit and others don't. The UUs added by a special ability are different because that is tied to the special ability. However, the "regular" UUs would be an imbalance if some civilizations have a UU that replaces a standard unit, but other civilizations get all of the standard units plus their UU.

Whether a unit replaces another is just a small part of the balancing equation. If in Civ V slingers didn't replace archers they wouldn't suddenly be better than every other UU.

 

[SJSerio]

Whether a unit replaces another is just a small part of the balancing equation. If in Civ V slingers didn't replace archers they wouldn't suddenly be better than every other UU.

The general point of the UU is to have something that stands it out and above the standard unit which it replaces. Otherwise, all they would be is a paint job.

 

[Atlas627]

I understand why people believe that some UU's aren't replacing anything. Buy my point is that it just seem unbalanced if some civilizations' UUs replace a unit and others don't. The UUs added by a special ability are different because that is tied to the special ability. However, the "regular" UUs would be an imbalance if some civilizations have a UU that replaces a standard unit, but other civilizations get all of the standard units plus their UU.

Some UUs replace existing units. They are significantly better than the base unit.

Some UUs do not replace existing units. They are significantly better than the base unit (no unit).

These can easily be balanced.

That isn't even taking into account the fact that non-replacement UUs might have the additional bonus of coming at times where no base unit fills that purpose...or that they basically replace a normal unit anyway because they fill the same role as a normal unit near its era.

Nor is it taking into account that civs have other bonuses, and it is the total of all of these bonuses that needs to be balanced. A strong UU and a weak UA might be about the same as a weak UU and a strong UA.

Some civs have an EXTRA UU. Even if all UUs were replacements (or all not-replacements), how is that balanced? Its balanced because the UUs themselves do not need to be balanced, but the civs as a whole do.

 

[King Jason]

I received a response from Arioch and he did, in fact, base his assumption that ironclads will be ranged units on the artwork, so the jury is still out.

I decided to take a look at this. I can confirm that the idea had been debunked since we've seen caravel represented with only 1 model, and they're melee.

The first ship we get is a Galley, which is a melee ship. The Quadreme comes after and is ranged, and both Ships can be produced in the same timespan, meaning the quadreme doesn't obsolete the Galley. Galley's have a melee strength of 25 and Quadriremes have a melee strength of 20 and a ranged strength of 25. So they're clearly designed to be used in tandem with one another as the melee/ranged counterpart.

Knowing the Caravel is Melee, and assuming the Frigate class of ship will be ranged, that'd create the same melee/ranged dynamic for the mid game.

So this draws a pretty clear naval path of Melee -> Ranged -> Melee -> Ranged in the tech tree. This leads me to conclusion that the next available ship after the Frigate; the Ironclad, is melee - as it was in civ5.

Battleships and Subs are unlocked after that.