Japan: Space Race

[Whitefire]

Taking sennomulo's suggestion, I decided to go for a space race while restricting myself to cities founded on Honshu. I played about 30 turns (nothing major) then decided to make this a true demo game. I'm going to be playing my game with y'all's suggestions in mind. And to start, here's what I was thinking:

That would be 6 cities in total. Why so many?

1) Wonders

Colossus and The Great Lighthouse will be crucial for keeping up in the tech race. My current plan is to build them both in Tokyo (the lime green dot) and turn Tokyo into my GP farm. The SoL will also be critical. While 6 extra specialists isn't that much, we're going to need every piece of gold or beaker. Also, the Space Elevator and the Internet will be useful for grabbing the Space victory. Many of the other wonders won't help us, or will dirty Tokyo's GPP pool.

2) Hybrid Economy

On Honshu, it's either feast or famine. The central tiles have a high amount of food production, while the southern and northern tiles have none to speak of. We'll be leveraging Colossus, Mercantilism and Statue of Liberty in order to make the north and south cities profitable.

3) Tech Path

I have no idea where to go. Liberalism is definitely a goal, and we want to avoid Astronomy at all cost. Corporation is inevitable, since we want to access apan's UB with Assembly Line.

4) Military

I'm thinking 6 warriors with 40 Frigates. Barbarians are not a problem for us, nor are foreign invasions. However, China is prone to declare war on us, so having an anti-pillaging force is a must. Another idea is to send out raizing parties. The gold from capturing cities will fuel our research and we'll still be within the parameters of the challenge.

5) Diplomacy.

This will be vital. We will need to trade our limited resources for Sugar, Gems, Spices, Wine, Pigs, Wheat and pretty much everything else. It will be crucial for us to run large cities. Tech trading will also be vital, as we will undoubtedly be behind throughout the entire game.



Post any ideas or help for me! I'll play through the first set of turns on Tuesday or Wednesday.

 

[Mowque]

have fun with this

 

[wenamon]

good luck whitefly. I will be reading along. you might even consider wiping out china to make sure they dont bother you all that much.
A few simple raids on the capital should take care of them.

 

[Comrade Aart]

Good luck! But .....

Won't you achieve historical victory very easy this way (and thus eliminating your chance to win by space race)? Because the only reqs for historical victory are (on the top of my head):

1. Be 1st in score in 1500
2. Every tile on Honshu must be in your influence by 1750(?).
3. Don't lose cities until 1850(?).

Reading your strategy 2 and 3 will be easy... But since the great powers always collapse (in my game) 1 is also fairly easy. Especially when you build tons of wonders.

It could also be that I play it at a very easy difficulty level.

 

[fearuin]

3. Don't lose cities until 1850(?).

Reading your strategy 2 and 3 will be easy... But since the great powers always collapse (in my game) 1 is also fairly easy. Especially when you build tons of wonders.

In order to avoid winning by history, you just have to build a city in Manchuria, and leave it defenseless. It will be a miracle if barbs, chinese or mongols don't take it. But to prevent mongols invading you, remember NOT TO MAKE IT COASTAL.

Another thing I have to comment: don't you think that 6 cities in Honshu are too much? Why don't you consider using that island 2 tiles to the south, 1 to the west of the dark green dot (put that city there, I mean)? It's Hainan, which was part of historical Japanese empire. Another possibility is to take Korea, which will probably be under your culture, anyway.

I'll follow your prowress with interest!! Good luck!

 

[Comrade Aart]

I have the idea that Seoul is impossible to take by culture. The other day I went over it with my cursor and it said "0% Independent". Since Kyoto was already at legendary culture I thought that Seoul would at least rebel very soon. But 20 turns later I went over the city with my cursor again and then it said "100% Independent" !
It could be that something happened in between that altered it. (China collapsed between the two times that I checked. Maybe they conquered Seoul and then collapsed without me knowing it). But still, weird. I also have the idea (while playing other civs in this mod) that cities that have been conquered can't switch sides via culture anymore. But then again; I'm a horrible player.

 

[Whitefire]

Another thing I have to comment: don't you think that 6 cities in Honshu are too much? Why don't you consider using that island 2 tiles to the south, 1 to the west of the dark green dot (put that city there, I mean)? It's Hainan, which was part of historical Japanese empire. Another possibility is to take Korea, which will probably be under your culture, anyway.

Hrm, now you made me want to build seven. I chose six because, IIRC, the tech penalties don't start ramping up until you hit 5 or 6 cities. Also, I want to use every ocean tile. Maintenance will be minimal, and with Colossus + Great Lighthouse, every city will cover their maintenance just from the center tile and foreign trade routes. So you maximize the number of cities to create those extra 4 trade routes, which will average 2 extra commmerce per, meaning 9 commerce (counting the extra in the center tile) right off the bat. A specialist (6 beakers) from Mercantilism, a specialist from SoL, +4 gold from Spiral Minaret, +4 Science from U of S...So you see, every city you found can make a considerable amount of commerce, gold and beakers without even needing to work a tile. This way, we optimize our usage of every tile we're constricted to.

Tokyo is the exception because I want a GP farm. Otherwise, I would squeeze 3 cities into it's radius.

 

[Pyro]

Now you made me want to play Japan just this second! And I should really study... What the heck, I'll just play anyway!
Have fun with your game!

 

[Whitefire]

790 BC The Great People of Japan have placed their trust in you, Tokugawa I. May your reign be eternal!

I delayed a turn to found my capital in Tokyo.

I wanted Tokyo to be a GP farm, and since we'll likely be running Beuracracy, having the capital in the only city that would have a full fat cross would yield us the most benefit. We founded Kyoto the same turn on top of the rice. We switched civics to HR and Slavery, then set our initial research path to:

Sailing--->Alphabet--->Animal Husbandry--->Iron Working

We started Granaries in both cities, and used our starting Workers to get the Copper hooked up ASAP for Colossus. The huts both popped for Warriors, giving us the 6 units needed to defend Honshu. We only needed one more unit built to defend Hainan, then it would be building and Navy spam.

We decided not to convert to Taoism. Pay attention kids, if you want any chance at trading techs, do not adopt a religion. However, this would let Kyoto accumulate culture, meaning we were in no rush for a Monument or a Library. Then, 21 turns into the game...

I decided to finish off the Granary before going for the GL. I would intermittently whip Workboats and settlers while constructing the GL. We whipped a galley in Kyoto, finished off the Granary and got started on a Forge. Forges will give us +2 happy, which is outstanding for early, small empires. We discovered Alphabet, and checked with Qin.

Ah well. Maybe Asoka will be more receptive. We whipped a Trireme out in Kyoto and sent it off in search of trading partners. Seoul spawned and we razed it for 10 gold. We got a surprise when our Trireme reached India.

Wow, thats a really strong Persia, and stable at that. He refused to give us decent terms for trading, so we settled for this.

Maths is on the way to Liberalism, and it ended up being about a 60 beacker gain on Cyrus's end, not too bad. The trade also let us grab an Open Borders agreement, so maybe we'll find the remnants of India to trade with. Meanwhile, the GL finished in Tokyo, so we started on some Settlers. I didn't want to expand until I had both the Colossus and the GL super-charging my economy. We ran into Asoka, who had nothing but Archery to trade me. They weren't too happy that I had traded with Persia, so I declared war to get open borders with them .

Iron Working was discovered, and I decided to break here. I now had to decide what techs I wanted next. Calendar would give me access Incensce and Silk resources. However, the flailing China knows this tech already, and may be willing to trade in a few years. Currency we're avoiding, since the Great Merchant that will soon be born in Tokyo will likely be used to bulb Currency (extra trade route and a nice building). The Great Library and Leaning Tower have not been built yet, so nabbing Literature might yield some very tasty wonders. Although without a Marble resource, or any forests to chop, the likelihood of grabbing them are slim. Code of Laws will help the economy and get us closerto Civil Service (which is on the way to Liberalism) So I'm leaning towards that one personally.

 

[coko]

Good start, how strong is Persia then? I always find Persia either independent or just about alive, never strong. Do agree with the need to push for Liberalism. Strange question, but what use was hunting? Or was it just up for grabs?

 

[Whitefire]

Good start, how strong is Persia then?

I don't know yet. They have multiple techs on me, so they have to be doing well. They haven't collapsed yet because the Barbs have not spawned in force to crush them. When I stopped playing, my Trireme was just out of sight of the Indus valley.

Strange question, but what use was hunting? Or was it just up for grabs?

Not strange at all. Actually, I grabbed it in case I need to defend the Rice and Dye tiles in Korea from Barb HAs.

 

[Drogear]

tried the same challenge on the same save. I quite when some other civ founded taoism before me (didnt even get close to be first), was hoping for a shrine in my holy citie for extra gold.

 

[Whitefire]

tried the same challenge on the same save. I quite when some other civ founded taoism before me (didnt even get close to be first), was hoping for a shrine in my holy citie for extra gold.

Wow, it's shocking that you even had a chance to get Taoism. China usually has it discovered before Japan spawns. Were you playing on Viceroy?

EDIT

Since the first few GPs will likely be GMs, I grabbed the list of lightbulb preferences for GMs.

Great Merchant:

Currency
Banking
Economics
Corporation
Metal Casting
Code of Laws
Mining
Constitution
Wheel
Pottery
Sailing
Paper
Railroad
Industrialism
Monarchy
Civil Service
Guilds
Fascism
Mass Media
Agriculture
Writing
Mathematics
Printing Press
Flight
Machinery
Replaceable Parts
Satellites
Mysticism
Priesthood
Divine Right
Nationalism
Calendar
Scientific Method
Medicine
Horseback Riding
Compass
Steam Power
Future Tech

Most important on that list is Civil Service. If we discover CoL and Currency, the GM will pop for Civil Service since we have every tech before it or can't research the techs before it. After that, the GM will pop Paper, which is also needed for Liberalism. So, the next techs will probably be Currency, then CoL. Currency first since I'll get more use out of Markets and the trade route than Courthouses.

That said, I was originally intending to use the GM as a super specialist in Tokyo. Currency would have popped for ~900 beakers (I'm trying to adjust for founding 4 more cities). If we drop the Merchant as a super specialist, it will produce 900 gold in 150 turns (well within our time frame for a space race). On top of that, the gold they produce will be modified by a market, grocer, bank and Wall Street. The Super Specialist will also give an extra 3 beakers under Representation. And on top of that, the Merchant Super Specialist gives +1 food, which is great for a GP farm.

So, the choices are a quick bonus from bulbing or a slow burn by settling. Opinions?

 

[coko]

Copy save file and try both
I'd do the quick bonus, because the shields for building the market should handle the bonus from having the GM on your city for the time it takes to research Currency shouldn't it? And it'll really jump you on your way to gettting lib, whereas from the other point of view you'll have more money, but no way to greatly increase research (beyond 100&#37

 

[fearuin]

I delayed a turn to found my capital in Tokyo.
(...)
I wanted Tokyo to be a GP farm.

Hehe, seems like my Tokyo-Kyoto edge has created school. Nice to see it!

Your game, until the actual point, reminds me that one I played for the Japan Imperial Challenge. Be aware of Persia, because if they took India, they will probably survive to Persia, and that will mean a closed door to Europe (because Persia does not build Suez-Channel-City), so unless Egyptians do it, you'll have a problem: the need to circunnavigate Africa. Thankx to that Open Border agreement, keep your galley travelling to the west!

 

[Whitefire]

Copy save file and try both
I'd do the quick bonus, because the shields for building the market should handle the bonus from having the GM on your city for the time it takes to research Currency shouldn't it? And it'll really jump you on your way to gettting lib, whereas from the other point of view you'll have more money, but no way to greatly increase research (beyond 100&#37

Cheater

Shields? Man, thats going back to Civ3. I'm a little confused by what you said. I don't see how producing a market 22 turns earlier will offset 200+ turns of a Merchant SS. Plus, the Merchant SS is like Mana from heaven. Another thing I'm worried about is Stability. I've already gone from Very Solid to Stable because of running in the red for so many turns. Having +gold at 100% research is not a bad thing for this mod.

Be aware of Persia, because if they took India, they will probably survive to Persia, and that will mean a closed door to Europe (because Persia does not build Suez-Channel-City), so unless Egyptians do it, you'll have a problem: the need to circumnavigate Africa.

The AI builds the canal? I've never seen that happen, largely because the tiles you can build the canal on all flip to Arabia, so Egypt doesn't build it. Everyone else in the area flips Jerusalem, so none of them will build another city so close

 

[captain beaver]

The AI builds the canal? I've never seen that happen, largely because the tiles you can build the canal on all flip to Arabia, so Egypt doesn't build it. Everyone else in the area flips Jerusalem, so none of them will build another city so close

Actually, if Jerusalem is conquered early on or Egypt gets Judaism before the fatidic date, Jerusalem's culture rarely expands. Thus, Egypt is scripted to try to create a city on the hill that links Egypt and Mesopotamia. It happens from time to time.

BTW, had I seen this earlier, I would have suggested that you initially beeline for sailing, build a boat as fast as you can, and send your 2 swordman to raze the chinese city on the coastline. Since they beeline for math, they don't have anything better than warriors most of the time. Nice way of raising money and destroying annoying China by making their stability fall.

 

[Whitefire]

I don't want to destroy China yet. In fact, I need them alive for trade routes until Mongolia spawns and the Euros start picking up Astronomy.

 

[Whitefire]

I began this turn with a wild card decision, I decided to research Literature. The LT usually isn't nabbed until the 10th century or later, and I would chance the hammers on the GL. We also made this trade with Qin.

Hopefully it will result in a +4 bonus and get us some foreign trade routes! Plague spawned in India the next turn, so having no open borders turned out to be a blessing. The next civ we met was rather far from home.

We only had Meditation to trade and he was only willing to give up Archery. Ah well, maybe Hammurabi would be more cordial.

/me mutters. I might as well have adopted Taoism at this rate. Uneventful turns passed. I discovered Literature and got started on Currency. I decided to settle my GM in Tokyo, mostly because of the food bonus. The next one will come in time to help bulb Paper. I founded Hakodate, and started my attempt for the Great Library there. It had 4 forests to chop, which gave it the best shot at completing in time.

Qin finally gave up some techs. Unfortunately, that still wasn't enough to secure an Open Borders agreement. More turns passed and we lost the race for the GL. Ah well. Hopefully the LT will make it though. The 132 gold will have to do as a research booster. We started getting Calendar luxuries online, and the power of Honshu rapidly became apparent.

11 happies in the Classical Era. Very Nice. I discovered Code of Laws and was tempted to jump to Caste System. But the small cities would need me to ship Granaries and Lighthouses before we made the switch. Plus, we could hold off for Beuracracy and save some stability. China still wouldn't give us Open Borders, so we changed our gift of fish to a trade for 3 GPT.

Our Trireme finally made it to Europe and made some trades.

I was able to secure Open Borders with Alex, but Hannibal refused to agree. I even gifted him Meditation, and he still wouldn't open the borders. I decided to make this trade with him. The AI will appreciate the one-sidedness of it, and will hopefully grant me passage.

We ended the turn with the discovery of Civil Service and started on Philosophy.

And on the next turn, success!

We got the message that Spain spawned, which was good news. Civil Service will son be traded for some valuable Medieval techs.

Or not. I shoulda known better with Izzy.

Continued in next post...

 

[Whitefire]

Even with all those techs being willing to trade, France would not give me Compass or Machinery for anything I had. Turns moved, we had alot of annoying recontact windows pop up, and we finally finished the LT.

We discovered Civil Service the next turn, and had our next GM spawn.

I popped paper, leaving us with Philosophy, Education and Liberalism to research. And then, we went shopping with Civil Service. Unfortunately, no one would give me Compass, Machinery or Feudalism for it. Grrr. Anyway, we did make a couple tech trades.

That gold will definitely help in the race to Liberalism, which we should win by a large margin now. And while the Compass trade was very uneven, Cathage is way behind, and most of the Euros already know CoL and Currency, so their value in trading is dropping fast. After Tokyo finished it's Library, I made the call to switch civics.

I needed the hammer bonus in Tokyo in order to grab the U of S faster. That way once we discovered Philosophy, I could jump to Caste System and Taoism. I know that switching to such an off-beat religion will ruin our tech-trading opportunities, but we should begin to pull away once all of our cities mature thanks to Colossus and the GL. I also started trading World Maps. One of the bonuses to discovering paper so early is that you can make a bevy of gold from map sales. And I finally found a good deal for Machinery!

I had no problem trading those dead techs away. Egypt would likely collapse soon anyway. Philosophy came quicker than expected, thanks to my maturing cities, and left me with a hard decision. I had traded my way through the pre-reqs for Optics, which not only gave me access to the Wale resource, but guaranteed contact with foreign nations and Naval supremacy. I decided to delay the race to Liberalism (which I was in no threat of losing) for Optics.

The rest of the turns were uneventful, and I ended with the discovery of Optics.

So, we're well on the way to Liberalism, with Education being the only Pre-req. As far as teching is concerned, I think I'm going to beeline for Democracy. So the free tech will be Nationalism, then we'll research Constitution (and have some help from a GM hopefully) then Democracy. Once we adopt Taoism, I don't expect any tech trades until others start adopting Free Religion, so giving away Liberalism may be a good idea.

Regardless, the question for the next 50ish turns is what to do with China. We have 3 happy right now, and could switch to Confucianism. However, the one city with Confucianism (Sapporo) will take forever to build a missionary to spread into Tokyo or Kyoto. So, would it be better to just raze their cities for gold or make the witch to Confucianism?

The next question is whether or not delaying buildings will pay off. Do we want to build military units instead of markets, courthouses, libraries, Wonders, etc?