Jon Shafer joins Stardock to work on elemental

[FatCatAttack]

There are reasons forum polls are not to be trusted. One of them, the fact that they misrepresent people's opinions and beliefs with their arbitrary options. In this case, if people just say they like 1UPT, there are things to consider. Do they simply think it's good as it is implemented in Civ V? (It's not). Do they think it's problems are just because of bad AI and hope for the programming to eventually be able to properly deal with it? (It won't). Are they even aware of the theory that places 1UPT as the root of all evil in Civ V? (Probably not). Talk about "false consensus"...

Food for thought.

Forum polls can mask their reasons for WHY they like a particular decision they don't change the fact that they voted for it all the same.

Polls are good ways for people who are still part of the community but don't feel comfortable engaging with the community to have a voice. Not everyone wants to get in a flame war with SorenSuperFan428 by posting how much they like Civ V and getting ambushed in return.

I think many here are simply unaware of how potentially...unaligned they are with the wider group of gamers. The hatred of Steam for instance is odd. Pretty much everywhere else Steam and Valve are considered one of if not THE saviors of PC gaming with Steam alone. But according to quite a few individuals at Civ Fanatics steam is a "root of evil." Honestly this place can seem like bizarro world and yeah I understand perfectly why folks aren't comfortable with posting and would rather do polls.

 

[jacyp]

ABOUT POOLS:

People seem to be posting the result of pool votes, specially the pools about 1UPT, as a defense for their ideas of "Jon Shafer made things right in Civ 5", but it's out of context.

Yes, in most pools people vote for the 1UPT (or other limited UPT) system, BUT you should read the thread of those pools.

The majority that votes for 1UPT does that with some caveats. What is really clear is that in most of these pools people want anything BUT SoD, and they don't fully support the way Civ 5 implemented the 1UPT.

Stop using numbers out of their context.

 

[Venereus]

Forum polls can mask their reasons for WHY they like a particular decision they don't change the fact that they voted for it all the same.

But if it turns out their reasoning is flawed or they are misinformed, the relevance of their votes must be questioned. It doesn't matter if half the world votes for something, they can still all be wrong.

Polls are good ways for people who are still part of the community but don't feel comfortable engaging with the community to have a voice. Not everyone wants to get in a flame war with SorenSuperFan428 by posting how much they like Civ V and getting ambushed in return.

So polls are the voice of all those forcibly unheard? I'm sorry, but such a wild assumption, on top of the already unreliable polls, makes any message trying to get through all that distortion hard to take seriously.

I think many here are simply unaware of how potentially...unaligned they are with the wider group of gamers. The hatred of Steam for instance is odd. Pretty much everywhere else Steam and Valve are considered one of if not THE saviors of PC gaming with Steam alone. But according to quite a few individuals at Civ Fanatics steam is a "root of evil." Honestly this place can seem like bizarro world and yeah I understand perfectly why folks aren't comfortable with posting and would rather do polls.

I think you are simply unaware of how potentially wrong can be anyone who thinks to know how the majority thinks. Even if Steam was perfect (I've experienced first hand a few of it's very annoying issues), nothing changes the fact that it was forced on us Civ V players. That in itself is wrong enough.

 

[AfterShafter]

ABOUT POOLS:

People seem to be posting the result of pool votes, specially the pools about 1UPT, as a defense for their ideas of "Jon Shafer made things right in Civ 5", but it's out of context.

Yes, in most pools people vote for the 1UPT (or other limited UPT) system, BUT you should read the thread of those pools.

The majority that votes for 1UPT does that with some caveats. What is really clear is that in most of these pools people want anything BUT SoD, and they don't fully support the way Civ 5 implemented the 1UPT.

Stop using numbers out of their context.

Read threads on the combat from Civ I, II, III and IV. A majority of people didn't fully support the way they implemented stacks, but people came to terms with their gripes and enjoyed the game. Heck, Civ IV was the perfect example of this... The current most beloved iteration of the Civ series had *huge* complaints regarding the SOD combat. So you sit here and say "You can't use this poll because people all had caveats for their votes!" - how is any other Civ game's combat system different?

This isn't about excuses, it's about realism. Civ V's 1UPT isn't perfect - but, that's par for the course for Civ. No Civ has dealt with any UPT perfectly, and there have always been a lot of people who grumbled but went on to enjoy the game. People have caveats concerning 1UPT as Civ V does it - were you expecting Civ V to impelement it in some flawless manner that made everybody absolutely happy? Fact is, in these polls, it was an appealing enough option to snag the vote above the alternatives. If the alternatives, caveats or no, were more desired, they would have got the votes. They didn't. The polls are worth some attention.

 

[Nares]

This LONE guy ruined a game that was done by hundreds of persons! As if he didn't have a publisher and investors watching over his shoulder, and lots of people doing tasks he had no control on.

He wasn't up to the job, which is no surprise. I had never seen a picture of him until that news item, but I'm surprised to see that the leader designer of CiV was little more than a kid. I should say I'm not surprised, because it makes sense given the final product, but you'd think someone over at Firaxis/2K has sense enough to know that this kid couldn't manage this project.

 

[ilikepies]

Congratulatios to him. Only one thing though- wasn't Elemental supposed to be kind of terrible?

 

[Nares]

Only one thing though- wasn't Elemental supposed to be kind of terrible?

If you read the thread, you'd find that most people agree with that assesment, but feel it's the lesser of two evils. Apparently a recent patch made it "acceptable."

As for Shafer heading there, it should be fine. The biggest fault I can find with Shafer is that he was not at all the guy to lead development not only of the new Civ game, but also one which fundamentally alters the underlying gameplay (1UPT).

Whoever hired him for the job basically guaranteed that CiV would be mediocre at best; I'm sure it takes a particular kind of developer to ensure a quality product today.

 

[Avs]

This is fine. Civilization really needs more patches and whatevers. Whether the guy left Civ5 and joined some other company doesnt make a damned difference when it comes to Civ5 at this point.

 

[Adam7Eight]

I think that by 2014 they're bankrupt or part of another company.

EA will buy them out... eventually.

 

[Avs]

EA will buy them out... eventually.

Buy them out? Don't think so at this point or by 2014. Buy the IP though? That sounds more like it.

 

[edpovi]

Good luck to Jon, he brings some great talent to Stardock. Elemental can only get better.

The design of Civ 5 was very good, it needed some more time for bug fixing and tweaks for balance. I've had a lot more fun with Civ 5 over Elemental. The potenial for mods is vastly superior as well.

 

[RobAnybody]

This news is a bit... disturbing. I bought Elemental mainly because Civ V was boring & terrible & simple & I was looking for an alternative game to play. Suffice to say that I won't be buying any sort of Elemental expansions if Shafer is anywhere near the design role.

If they let him design a sequel to Pac-Man, I believe he'd have Pac-Man get slower with ever dot he ate, but he'd get LASERS and BAZOOKAS to shoot the ghosts! No Challenge + Tedious = Boring.

As much as Shafer would like to blame everyone else in the world (that post of his is classic blame-shifting if I ever saw it - "now I can design games like *I* want to, not super-simplified like I said all along that I wanted! all that bad, dull, awful stuff people hated? that was those other guys! they made me do it!"), he is the one I associate with the dull Please, Not One More Turn tedium that is Civ V. So him joining Stardock is bad news as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Thormodr]

This news is a bit... disturbing. I bought Elemental mainly because Civ V was boring & terrible & simple & I was looking for an alternative game to play. Suffice to say that I won't be buying any sort of Elemental expansions if Shafer is anywhere near the design role.

If they let him design a sequel to Pac-Man, I believe he'd have Pac-Man get slower with ever dot he ate, but he'd get LASERS and BAZOOKAS to shoot the ghosts! No Challenge + Tedious = Boring.

As much as Shafer would like to blame everyone else in the world (that post of his is classic blame-shifting if I ever saw it - "now I can design games like *I* want to, not super-simplified like I said all along that I wanted! all that bad, dull, awful stuff people hated? that was those other guys! they made me do it!"), he is the one I associate with the dull Please, Not One More Turn tedium that is Civ V. So him joining Stardock is bad news as far as I'm concerned.

Jon Shafer will only be working on the modding capabilities of Elemental. He will give creative imput but he'll do that as part of a team. I honestly think he'll thrive in that role.

I think the future is quite bright for Elemental and for Stardock.

 

[jacyp]

So you sit here and say "You can't use this poll because people all had caveats for their votes!" - how is any other Civ game's combat system different?

I didn't say that and, honestly, I'm tired of seeing you and many others putting words on people's mouths. You like to assign phrases to people who never said them? Fine. Then talk to yourself.

If you want to talk with me, then read my posts and understand them instead of inventing a meaning that wasn't there.

I said that using numbers alone in a pool that has caveats without even talk about the mentioned caveats is a worthless piece of information, cos it's an incomplete information. Period.

I didn't say "you can't use" anything. I said "stop using numbers out of context" because it's worthless. It's the same to have a person with half the body in an oven at 100º C, and the other half frozen at -50º C. You can say that the average temperature of the person is confortable 25º C, but the guy will be dead.

People here are using numbers without checking if the guy is dead or no, it's as simple as that. There's no need for you to invent anything about what I've said, let's stick with the facts.

The polls are worth some attention.

Yes, they deserve so much attention that they need to be READ instead of taking numbers alone. Thanks for strengthening my point.

 

[JohnnyW]

The word poll has 2 Ls, not 2 Os.

Carry on.

 

[AfterShafter]

I didn't say that and, honestly, I'm tired of seeing you and many others putting words on people's mouths. You like to assign phrases to people who never said them? Fine. Then talk to yourself.

If you want to talk with me, then read my posts and understand them instead of inventing a meaning that wasn't there.

I said that using numbers alone in a pool that has caveats without even talk about the mentioned caveats is a worthless piece of information, cos it's an incomplete information. Period.

I didn't say "you can't use" anything. I said "stop using numbers out of context" because it's worthless. It's the same to have a person with half the body in an oven at 100º C, and the other half frozen at -50º C. You can say that the average temperature of the person is confortable 25º C, but the guy will be dead.

People here are using numbers without checking if the guy is dead or no, it's as simple as that. There's no need for you to invent anything about what I've said, let's stick with the facts.



Yes, they deserve so much attention that they need to be READ instead of taking numbers alone. Thanks for strengthening my point.

You know, as someone who gets so outraged by being "misrepresented," I would love for you to get me a list of people who said "Jon Shafer made things right in Civ 5" concerning 1UPT - to quote you - because that's who you claim to be talking to. I haven't seen anyone making that specific claim here, or at least so few people you'd be talking to some tiny, tiny minority in the forum. Those supporters all have complex views, remember, and next to no-one is saying "Joh Shafer made things right in Civ 5"? Views which by your own standards you patently misrepresented when you said "People seem to be posting the result of pool votes, specially the pools about 1UPT, as a defense for their ideas of "Jon Shafer made things right in Civ 5", but it's out of context."

Once you do that, you can come back and talk to me about misrepresenting exact words rather than reading the spirit of posts. Until then, you look a little silly for getting upset at me for "misrepresenting" in a way you thought was just dandy to do in the very thread you responded to... So go ahead, get me that list of people who are saying that. I want to know who you're talking to with that statement, rather than just putting words in peoples' mouths

 

[lonemessiah]

Joh Shafer made things right in Civ 5

 

[Venereus]

Joh Shafer made things right in Civ 5

I LOLed.
Jon Shafer made things in Civ V.
Some people think things are right in Civ V.
Therefore...

Yeah, I'm pretty sure we can say people said that in a way.

 

[blind biker]

I did exactly the same. With this new, and the new only, my Elemental experience is already ruined... what can I expect from the guy that ruined a succesful franchise of 20 years?

FrogBoy, big mistake, man... I am one of your loyals since GalCiv1, as I was to civ since Civ1... and you bring the same destroyer aboard.

Bad move. BAD move. Did you not realize that many, MANY of us moved from civ5 to Elemental, even with the bad release reports, because of the guy you are now hiring???

BAD move.

Another Civ V to Elemental refugee here. I hope Shafer doesn't turdify Elemental, too. I quite enjoy it with the latest patch. Certainly way WAY better than Crash V.

EDIT: FYI, I didn't yet buy the game - I just played a "demo".

 

[lonemessiah]

In all seriousness I expect Jon will have a large say in how the tactical combat works in Elemental. Seeing as this is where a lot of his interests lay, combined with the fact that Frogboy loves programming AI's I can see it all working out very well for Elemental. All should be good as long as the team working around him have the balls to stand up and say if somehting isn't working.