Eigenvector
Molekh has nothing on me!
Doesn't it seem reasonable that you should be able to build lumbermills in jungle terrain? What gives there? Jungles seem to be the worst terrain when in reality they should be goldmines of resources.
Jungle and lumber mills
- Thread starter Eigenvector
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Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
I don't know of any examples of jungles being productive in the real world... normally I hear of them being clear-cut to give farm or pasture land that lasts a few years until the soil destabilizes. I honestly know little to nothing about this though, other than what I remember from high school science courses. Can jungles be productive? I do know they're a source of discovering new pharmaceutical compounds.
Eigenvector
Molekh has nothing on me!
Well what about lumbermills?
MrCynical
Deity
Plenty of the more valuable timbers come from rainforests/jungles, or at least they used to, so it does seem fair they should be a bit more productive. They really ought to have the same improvement options, and probably chop bonus as well that forests have. I don't think this would be that unbalanced, since even with lumbermills they would be an undesirable terrain type thanks to the food and health penalties.
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
Historically, jungles have been an impediment to civilization. There are exceptions - the Maya come to mind - but generally jungle areas have remained marginal.
Lumbermills would make sense, I suppose; they come late, and jungle exploitation has shot up in more recent history.
Lumbermills would make sense, I suppose; they come late, and jungle exploitation has shot up in more recent history.
GIO888
King
Agree with Last Conformist - Jungles are a valuable resource to the aboriginals that understand them - us "advanced" folk simply raze them for farmland and housing.
This said, how jungle can be utilized in Civ 4 is about right in my book!
Like the idea of the more jungle inside your territory after, say 1900, the slower global warming affects you.
CIV ON!
This said, how jungle can be utilized in Civ 4 is about right in my book!
Like the idea of the more jungle inside your territory after, say 1900, the slower global warming affects you.
CIV ON!
Jack Naples
Chieftain
Yeah, I'd say they've got it just about right with 1 food - only slender populations could ever be sustained by jungle. To compensate for this, clearing jungle tiles only takes 4 turns to do and you always end up with grassland.
MRM
Prince
Jack Naples said:
But isn't grasland to good for chopped jungle ? Just think about all the farmers in the jungle who burn down some jungle for agriculture, and after a few years they have to move on because the soil was allready exhausted ... jungle soil is in generall not very fertile.
OT Lumbermills for jungles - hm intressting idea since there are some very valueable woods like teak or so. But maybe this should come late ( maybe early industrial, and maybe lumbermills for forest some earlier ? ) and maybe give more commerce then production bonus
Edit : maybe simpler chopping of jungle may provide some gold bonus ( instead of hammers ) and you may need steam engine or railroad to chop jungle ( not ironworking ) substainable usage of jungle may come with environmentalism, and maybe a little health bonus with genetics ( modern pharma industry )
Ok, i don't agree that lumbermills should work in jungles. but the facts are that tons of medicines are made from products found in jungles. so i think they should give +1 health. and if chopped give x number of food to the city nearby, i think that would be realistic.
Colonel Kraken
Deity
Can rainforests/jungles be farmed for lumber? It is my understanding that most jungle areas do not contain useful types of wood. Balsa maybe, but it's use is marginal. Hardwoods do not come from jungles.
Is the problem of farming land from clear cut jungle a matter of farming technique and not necessarily that it's being farmed at all? My understanding is that when proper farming techniques and technology are applied to these areas, farming is productive.
Is the problem of farming land from clear cut jungle a matter of farming technique and not necessarily that it's being farmed at all? My understanding is that when proper farming techniques and technology are applied to these areas, farming is productive.
Eigenvector
Molekh has nothing on me!
That's a debatable point, but as a compromise how about having a resource pop up in it as technology advances - kinda like aluminum or uranium? Say, medicines, teak, balsa, hemp, or other jungle related resources. That doesn't sound unreasonable to me and it would give you incentive to not immediately raze the place to plains like I always have to do.
Exavier
Destroyer of Worlds
Eigenvector said:
didn't you have to get rubber from jungles in Civ 3? lol
>Is the problem of farming land from clear cut jungle a matter of farming technique and not necessarily that it's being farmed at all? My understanding is that when proper farming techniques and technology are applied to these areas, farming is productive.
the big problem with farming the cleared jungle area is the farmers, not the farming itself. The concept of crop rotation is not something they seem to care about, though that is SLOWLY changing. Any farmer can ruin a piece of land by over farming it, aka planting the same thing year after year after year, sucking all the nutrients out of the soil and therefore making it unusuable. Thats why we have the knowledge of crop rotation. Where you plant something different that might inject nutrients into the soil, or you leave a field alone for a season.
the big problem with farming the cleared jungle area is the farmers, not the farming itself. The concept of crop rotation is not something they seem to care about, though that is SLOWLY changing. Any farmer can ruin a piece of land by over farming it, aka planting the same thing year after year after year, sucking all the nutrients out of the soil and therefore making it unusuable. Thats why we have the knowledge of crop rotation. Where you plant something different that might inject nutrients into the soil, or you leave a field alone for a season.
Colonel Kraken
Deity
ah, just as I thought.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Perhaps the health effects of a Jungle could be removed with a Hospital...and once you research Medicine, Pharmaceutical resources could have a chance of appearing in jungle, similar to new resources appearing in a mine. This would also improve the benifit of going with Environmentalism if you left some jungles up.
There could also be exotic wood luxury resources that has a chance to appear, which could be accessed with a lumbermill.
There aught to be some way you could dynamically link Jungles and Environmentalism, that might end up being better than the flat +6 health and +1 happiness per tile. With that civic enabled, you could replant jungles and forests using the tree-farm approach, and the appearance of pharmaceuticals and exotic woods would give you the health and happiness bonuses. Perhaps accessing these resources would require you to be under that civic, you could then trade surplus supplies to other leaders.
This way, you could replant forests to provide production, and replant jungles to provide health and happiness, which over time would provide the benifits that could be removed from researching multiple Future Techs, providing more dynamic gameplay.
hmm...
- After researching Assembly Line (or some other late-industrial tech), exotic wood luxury resources could begin appearing in jungle tiles.
- After researching Medicine, pharmaceutical resources could begin appearing in jungle tiles.
- Hospitals could remove the negative health effects of jungles nearby.
- Running the Environmentalism civic is required to access these resources. Exotic woods are connected by a lumbermill, medicines by a camp.
- While the civic is required for access, surplus resources can be traded to any leader like hit movies or wonders. If the civic is changed, the resource access is lost, like losing the Broadway or Hollywood wonders.
- While under Environmentalism, forests can be replanted for improving production, and jungles for the health or happiness resources.
- Exotic woods add a hammer bonus to the tile, medicines add a food bonus to the tile.
There could also be exotic wood luxury resources that has a chance to appear, which could be accessed with a lumbermill.
There aught to be some way you could dynamically link Jungles and Environmentalism, that might end up being better than the flat +6 health and +1 happiness per tile. With that civic enabled, you could replant jungles and forests using the tree-farm approach, and the appearance of pharmaceuticals and exotic woods would give you the health and happiness bonuses. Perhaps accessing these resources would require you to be under that civic, you could then trade surplus supplies to other leaders.
This way, you could replant forests to provide production, and replant jungles to provide health and happiness, which over time would provide the benifits that could be removed from researching multiple Future Techs, providing more dynamic gameplay.
hmm...
- After researching Assembly Line (or some other late-industrial tech), exotic wood luxury resources could begin appearing in jungle tiles.
- After researching Medicine, pharmaceutical resources could begin appearing in jungle tiles.
- Hospitals could remove the negative health effects of jungles nearby.
- Running the Environmentalism civic is required to access these resources. Exotic woods are connected by a lumbermill, medicines by a camp.
- While the civic is required for access, surplus resources can be traded to any leader like hit movies or wonders. If the civic is changed, the resource access is lost, like losing the Broadway or Hollywood wonders.
- While under Environmentalism, forests can be replanted for improving production, and jungles for the health or happiness resources.
- Exotic woods add a hammer bonus to the tile, medicines add a food bonus to the tile.
Panda
Metal head
I worked in Bolivia in a lumber mill. While it wasn't jungle aka 'rain forest' but 'dry forest' because there was an annual drought for three to six months, in my real world experience Civ 4 is correct in modeling jungle.
The average yield from one hectare (100 x 100m) is three (3) logs of usable timber. Everything else is worthless for industrial use, and most of it isn't even fit as a heat source. This is a striking difference to, for example, Northern European forests, where the yield is infinitely greater.
The most productive forest sources in South America are, in fact, tree plantations of eucalyptus and silver oak.
So, in conclusion, leave the jungle in Civ as it is. Especially the health hazard.
The average yield from one hectare (100 x 100m) is three (3) logs of usable timber. Everything else is worthless for industrial use, and most of it isn't even fit as a heat source. This is a striking difference to, for example, Northern European forests, where the yield is infinitely greater.
The most productive forest sources in South America are, in fact, tree plantations of eucalyptus and silver oak.
So, in conclusion, leave the jungle in Civ as it is. Especially the health hazard.
