Jungle Fever: Monarch Aztec Mayhem - Domination or Conquest Victory

Hmmm... those longbows aren't going to fall easily unless we can get a sizeable force at their gates, even at Orleans. Rheims does look a bit scary; what is Napoleon stacking those troops for?

Also, our economy is really picked up. Since we aren't making headway against Nappy, let's settl Green and Orange dots. Oh, there's a barb city located just NE of orange dot. Would we rather have that... Uh, probably not, so raze that.
 
Khift has not shown up since two turns ago, I guess he dropped out of this SG. We can skip him permanently or find a replacement. Pindicator, you are up next.
 
Inherited Turn, 1200AD
Since we have a good economy and don't seem to be close to taking a French city (not till Macemen come to help, thinks me) I'm going to set Teotihuacan on a Settler and settle the Green Dot. We really can use the extra production. I will take some extra troop and raze the barb town just to get us some gold as well.

Typically it isn't good to promote units so early. We are far more flexible then units are left un-promoted until they can choose which promotions they will actually need. Case in point: all our cats have Barrage I + Accuracy even though we haven't even tried mounting an attack on a French city yet. What if a huge french stack comes up? Wouldn't we rather have Combat I + Barrage I or Barrage II cats available?

1) 1205AD
Napoleon comes asking for peace and offering 260g for it. That's tempting. In fact, since we aren't in a great spot to go after a city right now I'm going to take it and grab the afore mentioned Dots in the interim peace. I tell him he has to adopt Paganism as well and he agrees! Ha, a turn of anarchy and an inferior civic for good ol' napoleon now!

Queing up Forges in our towns. Our cities are quite a mess. Little infrastructure and poor tile improvement choices IMO. (I mean, Tlatelolco has 4 mined hills and none of its river-bordering tiles are farms!??!)

2) 1210AD
zzzZZZZzzz

3) 1215AD
Alex wants Open Borders. Sure, why not. Can you believe the bugger actually likes us now?
We learn Machinery. Civil Service is next (read: Macemen).

Tenochtitlan starts a settler.

4) 1220AD
Mount a force to raze the barb city.

5) 1225AD
I seriously want to farm over those cottages in Tlatelolco. Pure :smoke: IMO.

Trade Napoleon (he likes us too now -- amazing what a little religion will do) incense for furs. When we're ready to bash his skull in we can cancel it.

6) 1230AD
:coffee:

7) 1235AD
Wow, Gaul is a lot less defended than I expected. 3 reg archers, no city walls.

8) 1340AD
Settlers complete in Tenoch and Teoti (read: green and orange dotters). Forges are next.

Raze Gaul. Slight aggrevation as we lost 2 80% battles there against unpromoted archers.

9) 1345AD
Settle Green Dot. Serious, that's what I called it. I've just been jonesin' for that town forever now.

Swap Tenochtitlan to a Confucian Missionary. I want those borders to expand in Green Dot sooner rather than later, and I don't trust the random spread of religion to do it for me.

10) 1350AD and Notes
Settle Texcoco at Orange Dot.

- Texcoco and Green Dot are both building Granaries. Have them work the highest food tiles they can; we want to grow them quick.
- Use the peace for needed infra, like markets, courthouses, and forges. Some towns could use some health bonuses like granaries and aquaducts, but that's not as important
- Seriously think we need to farm over cottages in Tlatelolco. I'm going to wait for the group okay on that but I might just get frustrated by my next turnset and do it anyway. That town is supposed to be a production monster; why else would we mine those hills? Either that or windmill them. As is they might as well be desert or mountains; they're useless without the food.
- Missionary being built in Tenochtitlan is for Green Dot. May want another for Texcoco or maybe just wait for natural religion spread.
- Pic attached showing the new cities. Burning cash on research, but we can't keep that up.

Hoping the next expansion phase is into Napoleon's lands, but as is we need to build up what

we have so we can outproduce him instead of standing around watching his stacks never go away.



The Save.
 
pindicator said:
Inherited Turn, 1200AD
Typically it isn't good to promote units so early. We are far more flexible then units are left un-promoted until they can choose which promotions they will actually need. Case in point: all our cats have Barrage I + Accuracy even though we haven't even tried mounting an attack on a French city yet. What if a huge french stack comes up? Wouldn't we rather have Combat I + Barrage I or Barrage II cats available?

Regarding the promotions, only one Cat has Accuracy, I don't think I did that but if I did it was a mistake. The 4 that I built all have Barrage II. It's true that maybe I should have left them for when they're actually used, and with most troops that's what I do. But with Cats I basically never use anything except Barrage 1 and 2, nor would I ever want them to battle unpromoted to use the promotion as a healer. As a result I have a habbit of just promoting cats with Barrage 2 right out of the Factory. If you really don't like it then I apologize.

1) 1205AD
Queing up Forges in our towns. Our cities are quite a mess. Little infrastructure and poor tile improvement choices IMO. (I mean, Tlatelolco has 4 mined hills and none of its river-bordering tiles are farms!??!)

I disagree with you here. We don't really need a lot of infrastructure. I have no problem with the forges, but most of the buildings we haven't built we really don't need, and we have needed units always. In particular I don't think we need markets very much at all.

Also I agree with our tile improvements almost 100%. In fact if it were my game I'd have even fewer farms, as I almost never build any. I took a look at Tlat and I think it's fine the way it is. Those desert hill mines are only 3 hammers. Giving up 3 cottages just to support one worker on a 3 hammer mine is a bad trade in my opinion. We are not desperate for production, I would leave the cottages so our research rate will stay strong.

These are my opinions.
 
Well, if I missed the correct catapult promotions, I guess I messed up there. But I swore more than one was set to Accuracy. That's irrelevant anyway; the point is that by using those promotions before they are needed, we are hobbling ourselves, boxing our units into a certain mold which may not be the best for what comes up.

I'm not arguing against cottages: cottages are essential for keeping you economy going on grasslands, but not for that city. Civ 4 is very much a city specialization and Tlatelolco is a city whose tiles are better suited towards production, not commerce. Yes, those desert hills are less than ideal, but that doesn't mean they're completely useless. Just north of Tlate is a great city for commerce: Antium. Huge swaths of jungle and grassland practically begging for grassland. Dyes can give us a quick (although not as potent in the end) commerce boost on many tiles in that city. Throw a couple farms down at first to encourage growth, and then when the city tops off the last of its tiles, put cottages over the farms. We could even clear more jungle for more cottage-focused cities.

And as for infra, that's another way of keeping our research up. Markets and Courthouses are the best way of turning around said economy. Not buildling forges -- how can you justify that? We were at war. We needed production. We couldn't keep up with Napoleon's unit production and went a full round of turnsets without even attempting a venture into his lands because we couldn't produce enough.
 
Inherited Turn, 1250 AD
Our economy can only sustain 50% research with positive income, so this will be a builder turn for me. I set workers to build a watermill outside Antium. Opened border with Napoleon and received 5 extra golds in income.

(1) 1255 AD
Fortified troop in the jungle between Aztec land and France

(2) 1260 AD
Peace treaty with Napoleon expires, set worker to build rice field and dye plantation

(3) 1265 AD
Missionary finished, dispatched to Marseilles

(4) 1270 AD
Bureaucracy discovered, set to research theology. Switched civic to bureaucracy and organized religon for faster build time

(5) 1275 AD
Napoleon demands machinery from us, we tell him to get lost (looks like we might be going to war sooner than later). Napoleon changed civics to bureaucracy and organized religion.

(6) 1280 AD
Islam discovered in distance land. Seems like we are behind the techs, but as long as we conquer this continents, we should be catch up tech in due time. Missionary spread confucionism in Marseilles

(7) 1285 AD
Confucianism spread in Texcoco

(8) 1290 AD
Antium is unhappy, prime target for whipping when the pop rush cost drops to 2 later on

(9) 1295 AD
Theology discovered, set to research guild for knights. Switched civics to vassalage and theology. Tlatelolco finished forget, set to build catapult.

civ4screenshot00005uv.jpg


(10) 1300 AD
Forge finished in Rome, continued with war elephant

Napoleon doesn't have theology, but has compass, which we don't have yet.
civ4screenshot00026dq.jpg


My suggestions for next turn is to continue building up military, keep sufficient force on our southern border to deter Alex from doing anything foolish. Then when we have enough force, we can declare on Napoleon again; we need cut Napoleon down to size before he gets too advanced.

ticktockclok: Up
niffweed17: On Deck
 
pindicator said:
I'm not arguing against cottages: cottages are essential for keeping you economy going on grasslands, but not for that city. Civ 4 is very much a city specialization and Tlatelolco is a city whose tiles are better suited towards production, not commerce.

I disagree. I wouldn't give up 3 cottages for 3 hammers. With that city, my strategy would be to ignore the desert hills, and work the cottages until the max pop is reached.

And as for infra, that's another way of keeping our research up. Markets and Courthouses are the best way of turning around said economy. Not buildling forges -- how can you justify that? We were at war. We needed production. We couldn't keep up with Napoleon's unit production and went a full round of turnsets without even attempting a venture into his lands because we couldn't produce enough.

I said I agreed with the forges. I just don't agree with the markets and courthouses. The Return on Investment is very poor for them at this time. We can produce enough to beat Napolean if we build nothing but units for a little while. If we stop to build Markets and Courthouse we will not match Napolean.
 
Sorry about the forges then. I missed that.

Ah, but I would try to out-produce Napoleon via new cities -- especially since we had good production sites still unsettled. I still think that the Tlate should have picked up "just" those three shields. Cottage the other tiles, sure, while there's nothing else to build there, but the tiles by the river should have been set to irrigation if only because there weren't other places to put them (yes, the 2 oasis allowed 2 additional farms -- I know).

I know that desert hills are the worst "production" type of tile; however, yellow dot could probably have been our highest production town if we had let it. As is, it looks like a square peg being shoved in a round hole. Wasn't the reason we originally decided to settle orange dot first (way before Julius changed our minds) was because orange dot had better commerce and growth while yellow dot was the better production site? We weren't playing to the city-site's strength, and that is what my issue is, especially on a monarch-level game.
 
Ok, I got it. I'll play now too, and try not to mess up too much, eh?

My suggestions for next turn is to continue building up military, keep sufficient force on our southern border to deter Alex from doing anything foolish. Then when we have enough force, we can declare on Napoleon again; we need cut Napoleon down to size before he gets too advanced.

Alright, I'll try my best to follow this.
 
Sorry, I'll have to exit out of this succession game. Somethings gone wrong with the comp, and its scratching up my game cd. I'll have to stop with the game.
 
okay, it looks to me like we are woefully underpowered right now to launch an attack on napoleon. therefore, this looks to be another uninteresting turnset.

TURN 0
everything looks good except for the -24 gold/turn. i tap the research rate -1 and get it down to -7 per turn, which will suffice for the time being.

TURN 1

saladin makes a sudden appearance.



he's already way more advanced than us, and will not consent to trade any technology out of music, philosophy, engineering, divine right, and compass. we have no techs to trade him anyway.

he's going to make life difficult for us later on.

forge constructed in tenochtitlán, i start a maceman.

TURN 2

ugg. napoleon declares war again. that was not what we needed.

he steals one of our workers but does no further damage.

my plans are entirely changed; no more is rebuilding a viable option; the only thing we can really do right now are guard our borders carefully and harass napoleon.

our war elephant knocks out a maurading horseman.

TURN 3

napoleon steals another worker, which i couldnt do anything about.

having another look, the situation is not good at all.



its very likely that we'll lose rome, but hopefully we can do enough damage to their forces to prevent them from doing anything else.

IBT-

so far everything's gone perfectly. most of our defenses are still at full HP.

longbowman defeats french horse archer
spearman defeats french war elephant
war elephant defeats french war elephant
axeman defeats french swordsman.
axeman defeats french horse archer

however, our farm was pillaged, our cottage was pillaged, etc.

TURN 4-

i'm still in no position to attack the french, so basically i try to strengthen the defenses in rome by moving a couple more troops in that direction.

IBT-

so far we couldnt ask for anything better. the french have successfully managed to kill themselves attacking rome at the cost of only one of our spearmen.

the full list:

our war elephant destroys a french war elephant away from rome.
in rome, a war elephant destroys an attacking war elephant.
a longbowman destroys an attacking longbowman.
war elephant defeats horse archer.
jaguar sitting in a jungle south of rome defeats horse archer.
spearmen defeats horse archer.
spearmen loses to horse archer.
axeman defeats spearman.

the only injured troops are the war elephant and jaguar attacked outside of rome, the longbowman in rome, and of course the spearman we lost. it is remarkable that nobody else has sustained damge.

TURN 5-

i decide to suicide two cats to weaken the stacks outside of rome.

there's absolutely nothing else i can do but sit and wait.

IBT

our infallible luck continues.

for the first time in this siege, napoleon comes at us with cats and does some collateral damage.

the full list:

catapult withdraws from combat with longbowman, but the collateral damage already done.
longbowman defeats war elephant
war elephant defeats catapult, but the damage done.
war elephant defeats horse archer
axeman defeats horse archer
jaguar loses to horse archer
axeman defeats spearman
axeman defeats war elephant
axeman defeats swordsman
war elephant away from rome defeats spearman.
axeman defeats spearman.

despite this incredible good fortune, our defenses in rome are pretty much fried by this point, but some of them will recuperate after being upgraded.

TURN 6-

right now its all about keeping rome away from napoleon.

out of pure necessity i'm upgrading an archer in rome to a longbow.

i also knock napoleon's catapult out of the picture, we don't need him to give us more collateral damage


a horse archer is wandering near antium, so i attack it with an injured elephant. unfortunately it loses with 80 some odd% odds. i finish it off with the other elephant

IBT-

the disaster has been averted. somehow, we've managed to knock off napoleon's invading force at the cost of one spearman, one jaguar, one axeman, 118 gold to upgrade an archer, and some tile improvements.

the remainder of napoleon's force comes after us, and we defeat all of them, except for one horse archer which kills the doomed axeman which destroyed the catapult.

TURN 7-

suddenly napoleon looks a lot less mighty.

right now, he's damaged our defenses enough so that we've got to keep building elephants, macemen, longbows, crossbows, and of course cats (and knights, when we can build them).

i would emphasize macemen, cats, and to a lesser degree crossbows.

horse archer defeats maurading longbowman and flees to rome.

IBT-

jaguar defeats horse archer south of rome.
stunningly, he is then defeated by a horse archer.

TURN 8-

of note is that maceman are starting to show up in napoleon's cities.

this turn is surprisingly quiet.

TURN 9-

a crossbowman defeats a maurading french swordsman.

note that an empty french galley is heading towards us down the western shore. i don't see how this is much of a problem.

IBT-

crossbowman loses to invading horse archer.

TURN 10-

i notice a barb longbowman near texcoco and destroy it with an axeman in texcoco (i had to move the jaguar that was de-fogging that area away to save rome. it should probably be replaced whenever we can spare a unit.)

i destroy the horse archer who destroyed our crossbowman with a war elephant just outside antium.



ok, basically our next path is straightforward. build up the military with macemen, cats, crossbows, elephants and possibly horse archers. attack napoleon when ready.
 
Good job fighting off Napoleon, Niffweed. Now we shall make him pay for his treachery.
colony: up
torello: On deck
 
mutax2003 said:
Good job fighting off Napoleon, Niffweed. Now we shall make him pay for his treachery.

hey, i didnt really do anything. i just had the troops sit in rome and gaped at our immense luck and his apparent lack of coordination.
 
I've got the save.

I'll have a look and play my turns either in the next few hours or tomorrow
 
Looking at the save Napoleon still has a decent number of units in his 2 closest cities, so I'll probably play these turns defensively. I'm tempted to turn our research to 0% for a couple of turns to upgrade some of the well promoted Axemen and Jags to Macemen too, as well as to give us enough to do something if Alex or Napoleon surprise us. I'm also tempted to whip that Market in Antium. That city is going to take forever to build anything at this rate.

I should be done in a couple of hours anyway, I've been a bit too busy today really:(
 
Phew, finally done, those last 3 turns made me very nervous, but we've managed to hold Rome for now, but I expect there's another stack on the way.

Turn 0 (1355 AD)
Tlatelolco finishes: Catapult
Texcoco's borders expand
War Elephant defeats (1.60/8): French Spearman
I also whip the Market in Antium, we need more money now, it could've been too late coming in 12 turns
I also turn Research to 0% to get some upgrading money

Turn 1 (1360 AD)
Tlatelolco begins: Maceman
War Elephant defeats (5.92/8): French Horse Archer
Teotihuacan finishes: Maceman
Antium finishes: Market
Texcoco finishes: Granary


I spot a galley headed towards us. I send the Elephant holding back the fog towards Green dot

Turn 2 (1365 AD)
Teotihuacan begins: Catapult
Antium begins: Library
Texcoco begins: Barracks
War Elephant defeats (8.00/8): French Horse Archer
War Elephant promoted: Formation
Antium grows: 12
Rome finishes: Crossbowman

Turn 3 (1370 AD)
Turn Research back up to 60%
Rome begins: Catapult
Crossbowman promoted: Combat I
Crossbowman promoted: Shock
Crossbowman loses to: French Maceman (6.32/8)
Maceman defeats (1.92/8): French Maceman
Tenochtitlan finishes: Maceman

Turn 4 (1375 AD)
Green Dot grows: 3
Texcoco finishes: Barracks
Napoleon unloads the Elephant and Horse Archer next to Green Dot.

Turn 5 (1380 AD)
Texcoco begins: Maceman
War Elephant defeats (7.04/8): French Horse Archer
War Elephant promoted: Combat I
Teotihuacan finishes: Catapult
Worker loses to: French Horse Archer (6.00/6)
Not much I could do there, didn't want to risk only leaving the Longbow in the city

Turn 6 (1385 AD)
Teotihuacan begins: Maceman
War Elephant defeats (6.88/8): French Horse Archer
War Elephant defeats (6.00/8): French Horse Archer
War Elephant defeats (5.76/8): French Horse Archer
Axeman promoted: Combat II
More time spent having to kill off Napoleon's pillaging units:(

Turn 7 (1390 AD)
And Napoleon finally seems like he's ready to go for Rome again:


We have a decent number of units there, but not enough Longbows/XBows
Because I didn't fancy our chances once Napoleon had used his Catapults up I send some in first
Catapult loses to: French Maceman (7.04/8)
Catapult promoted: Barrage I
Catapult promoted: Barrage II
Catapult loses to: French Crossbowman (3.48/6)
Catapult loses to: French Maceman (7.04/8)
Maceman defeats (6.88/8): Barbarian Longbowman
Maceman promoted: Shock
Maceman promoted: Combat II

IBT
Here is where I get very nervous, I didn't do as much collateral damage as I'd have liked:
Tech learned: Guilds
Tlatelolco finishes: Maceman
Antium's borders expand
Rome finishes: Catapult
Longbowman defeats (6.00/6): French Catapult
Longbowman defeats (4.56/6): French Catapult
Longbowman defeats (3.84/6): French Catapult
Longbowman defeats (3.00/6): French Crossbowman
War Elephant defeats (2.56/8): French War Elephant
Crossbowman defeats (1.38/6): French Maceman
Maceman defeats (1.28/8): French War Elephant
Longbowman loses to: French Maceman (1.76/8)
War Elephant defeats (4.96/8): French Horse Archer
Horse Archer loses to: French Crossbowman (0.90/6)

Turn 8 (1395 AD)
Research begun: Engineering
We desperately need Pikemen and the extra road movement now IMO, especially if we want to finish Napoleon off soon

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