Keep getting squashed!

[Juanholio]

Every now and then I like to try my hand at immortal since so many folks around here seem to view it as 'normal' compared to deity. I've noticed with the (beta) patch the AI army composition has improved and generally moving and attacking seem to be a bit more fluent. The main differences I experience as a Emporer-level player is the number of enemy units is significantly higher, it takes me an age to construct a comparable force and the AI are quicker to tech parity if not already ahead.

I've tried a couple of games on immortal post patch and I just keep getting squashed. I had a peaceful game with morocco where I just got crowded off the best city plots by expansion I couldn't match and fell behind. Otherwise I'm starting near a warmonger (rome, huns and mongols so far) and their armies are just unstoppable (actually I managed to fend off the mongols by beelining machinery but the war left me quite far behind).

I'm doing most things I can think of, settling on hills(w/rivers if possible), getting comp bows building walls etc. but I just can't seem to keep up. Either I try to develop cities (monument, granary, library) and have few units (archers) or I go hell for leather building units and fall behind. The units I do build are outnumbered and it seems holding off the horde with a few archers/bows seems trickier now. AI seems to value comp. bows more as they seem a staple part of these attacks along with swords/pikes and catapults.

It's mostly the quanity of enemy units and how best to use my comparatively meagre hammers to best effect. Also when to expand? Good territory seems to get swallowed up very quickly. Usually on Emp this wouldn't bother me as it's pretty easy to get it back either through puppeting or razing and resettling. In fact annihilating a neighbour is usually a requirement for a decent game in my experience.

 

[Ninakoru]

Go full tradition and flavor science. Turtle up until medieval-industrial (depending on your plans), fast NC, fast education, all slots with GS, eventually GE. Don't build barely any wonder if you don't feel is key and you have a decent chance to get it. Once you get tech party things become much easier.

Don't build walls if there's no menace, units at bare minimum, they suck gold. Keep an eye on near CSs to a fast worke steal. Early trade caravan can net you tons of science for the early tech crawling. Is just experience, alwais I recommend a science oriented game for SV because most of it is near required for any victory on deity.

 

[Maxym]

Either do as Ninakoru says and turtle for fast science or build archer army with support, upgrade to CB then go for XB, forget Edu and own few neighbors. You will be behind, accept that, but the expanded base will let you catch up.

Try to fight one front with lots of caravans to AI on opposite side to keep science up. And yeah few archers is not enough here.

No wonders of course. Maybe not even early libraries , ITRs instead. If you have room to expand use turtle if you get hemmed in fight your way out of it. Steal AI worker(s) if you know you will fight anyway.

 

[Juanholio]

Thanks, I think one of the challenging things when you switch up a level is that of expectation - i.e. what you can feasibly build, turn times etc. Emporer is very forgiving, you can meander quite a bit in your strategy and still win comfortably.

Here's a game I just started. I thought I'd have another go as Babylon I managed to get the NC out and Oracle fairly swiftly and have gone full trad. Had to spend a couple of points in Commerce since I hadn't unlocked Rationalism. Rome friendly at the beginning so I sided with them against the Aztecs. Of course I'm next on the menu. Beelined Machinery to have a chance at defence. In the time it took me to upgrade/hard build five xbows they've teched gunpowder. Now, on Emp you can wreak havoc with 5 xbows here I think I'll just about hold my own. Keeping Budapest should help.

So what do you reckon? Keep plugging away and take down Rome once I have an edge? Turn 160+ for a univiserty seems pretty late also my capital is being dwarfed by Rome. I guess this is normal?

 

[GhostSalsa]

I'm also finding Immortal an exceptional pain. BNW doesn't reward early conquest at all - huge threat of embargo downstream and science cost hit from small puppets - so when I am invaded now, I can't leverage that into early growth.

I have to settle in for a 150-turn defense until I hit Industrial. I have to keep a standing army roughly as large as my invader who doesn't even care about negative gold (I've seen the AI go half the game in negative gold) and has godlike production capacity. And have to cope with lost tiles. And can't do anything to punish them.

My Emperor games where a militant neighbor invaded early have equally been a drag, or just a loss, but I know I can rebound in Industrial. In Immortal the invasion is just attritioning me out of victory running. Even shoring up my defenses is imprudent. I have to build a twelve unit army just because Japan/America/Greece/Indonesia has been cranking out warriors and a catapult for 70 turns, but can't take anything from them in return? Why not just wait 70 turns to settle my first city if that's what it takes to survive. Instead I roll the dice and hope I survive until universities.

----

In your screenshot, I'd say one problem is that ambitious second-city placement (assuming D-K was second). Yes the AI is gobbling up all the good city spots now. If you are going to turtle then keep your cities closer and easier to defend, nestled into mountains or CS buffers. Plant the ocean city away from enemy AI. You can conquer the choice spots later. You already had wine anyway. Now you're unhappy. The second city has drained your growth.

Second problem is under-growing your capital. No gold from rivers means only farms should go there. Great person tiles should stay off of rivers. Those river forests (ew) should have been chopped. Grow grow grow. It wasn't a great starting location for a tall supercity anyway - no bonus food tiles and few mineable hills.

I would recommend Patronage over Commerce for a pre-rationalism filler - got to love free mercantile and faith bonuses. Though the patch reduces Pledge resting point so that's less shiny.

Crossbows can hold off muskets but your growth and science are being drowned.

Edit: one last recommendation is to snag Mausoleum on a two-quarry start. The AI usually doesn't get it too fast. Four extra gpt in capital is great - 100 gold when planting a scientist or citadel is a nice recoup to defense costs. Mausoleum lets you get away with late trade-route growth, so it pays for itself.

 

[Juanholio]

Good points I'll take on board. I actually tired rather quickly of this and tried again with Babylon. Had effectively an OCC start with Pacal wonder grabbing close by. Went for and early take down which boosted my empire nicely. Sued for peace as I didn't want a huge diplo hit for killing him off, especially as I'd just taken his capital.

I was astounded when a few turns later in a city with only a couple of cows and woods (no improvements) in a city settled just moments before I took his capital he built the great wall. If I had a similar city it would have been 50+turns. Against prudence I decided to grab it off him thinking the great wall would be a handy boon and I was pretty strong. France to the north declared war and so did the shoshone. Immediately captured Lyon and on Emp would have capture Paris but the rate he was spitting out pikes on the hills slowed me up until he was spitting out muskets.

I've killed every Shoshone unit (swords & comp bows vs my xbows) but he refuses peace and has systematcally bought up every single CS on the contintent and a few I've not even scouted. Managed to get a scout nearby and just saw a sea of muskets. Chances are like previous immortal games, we'll be at war for the rest of the game and diplo will suck for me. Still, it's more fun than the previous try. Can't imagine how one would attempt a culture game with wonders getting swallowed up so quick.

 

[BarrenEarth]

I never ever settle on anything other than a hill unless there is a perfect flatland spot I must have. Also, try playing at Haile because you will almost always have less cities and that 20% bonus to combat will help you greatly in your fight.

You could even go as far as to take the Pantheon that gives you +30HP when ending turn next to a friendly city. Fighting defensive war with Haile on a hill with the +30HP means an army of about 6 units could destroy any attacking force until Artillery.

 

[kb27787]

Thanks, I think one of the challenging things when you switch up a level is that of expectation - i.e. what you can feasibly build, turn times etc. Emporer is very forgiving, you can meander quite a bit in your strategy and still win comfortably.

Here's a game I just started. I thought I'd have another go as Babylon I managed to get the NC out and Oracle fairly swiftly and have gone full trad. Had to spend a couple of points in Commerce since I hadn't unlocked Rationalism. Rome friendly at the beginning so I sided with them against the Aztecs. Of course I'm next on the menu. Beelined Machinery to have a chance at defence. In the time it took me to upgrade/hard build five xbows they've teched gunpowder. Now, on Emp you can wreak havoc with 5 xbows here I think I'll just about hold my own. Keeping Budapest should help.

So what do you reckon? Keep plugging away and take down Rome once I have an edge? Turn 160+ for a univiserty seems pretty late also my capital is being dwarfed by Rome. I guess this is normal?

If this is standard speed you are probably already doomed (and not because of Rome since X-bows should hold off muskets)... somewhere hidden in the world is probably a civ whose capitol is already approaching size 20-30 and who is 10 techs ahead.

I'd say your downfall is the capitol size (you have river grassland tiles but you don't seem to be working them)/ lack of food caravans to Babylon.
That, and lack of exploration (lack of friends and the benefits that come with selling luxes to friends)

 

[Juanholio]

If this is standard speed you are probably already doomed (and not because of Rome since X-bows should hold off muskets)... somewhere hidden in the world is probably a civ whose capitol is already approaching size 20-30 and who is 10 techs ahead.

I'd say your downfall is the capitol size (you have river grassland tiles but you don't seem to be working them)/ lack of food caravans to Babylon.
That, and lack of exploration (lack of friends and the benefits that come with selling luxes to friends)

I concur. I probably needed to focus more on growth for the capital. When so much needs to get built though, it's very tempting to use those hills. I'm still trying to figure out the buildings I don't really need but are nice to have. The trade-off is clearly more severe and I'm still in Emperor mode wanting to build almost everything because I can. Or perhaps not really realising that certain buildings could be delayed somewhat because the maintenance isn't worth it. Perhaps more turtling would have been better. I'd hoped I could get a second city growing quick with victoria but didn't quite work out. Again on Emp it would have been pretty easy to steamroll Rome with xbows (a tactic I've rather tired of hence the switch in level).

Unless my capital is coastal I try to make my 2nd city so in order to build a couple of triremes and save them to quickly upgrade to caravels. Hopefully in a production rich area for later ships. As you might have gathered from this thread I'm finding fitting in all the stuff I'm used to, like getting to astronomy and meeting everyone first, really tricky at this level. Clearly there's extraneous stuff that I need to streamline. All tips most welcome!

 

[Adjuvant]

I'm also finding Immortal an exceptional pain. BNW doesn't reward early conquest at all - huge threat of embargo downstream and science cost hit from small puppets - so when I am invaded now, I can't leverage that into early growth.

I have to settle in for a 150-turn defense until I hit Industrial. I have to keep a standing army roughly as large as my invader who doesn't even care about negative gold (I've seen the AI go half the game in negative gold) and has godlike production capacity. And have to cope with lost tiles. And can't do anything to punish them.

My Emperor games where a militant neighbor invaded early have equally been a drag, or just a loss, but I know I can rebound in Industrial. In Immortal the invasion is just attritioning me out of victory running. Even shoring up my defenses is imprudent. I have to build a twelve unit army just because Japan/America/Greece/Indonesia has been cranking out warriors and a catapult for 70 turns, but can't take anything from them in return? Why not just wait 70 turns to settle my first city if that's what it takes to survive. Instead I roll the dice and hope I survive until universities.

I like this post and I think there should be a better answer, too. One part of me says, "well of course opponents should hate an early warmonger and accordingly shun the guy-ahead-of-the-pack", but really some aspect of early warmongering should be less-penalized because the net effect has effectively been "removal of the playstyle".

I like what I'm reading in the fall patch concerning this and I plan to push the envelope over the next couple days to see what's changed.

 

[Juanholio]

I like this post and I think there should be a better answer, too. One part of me says, "well of course opponents should hate an early warmonger and accordingly shun the guy-ahead-of-the-pack", but really some aspect of early warmongering should be less-penalized because the net effect has effectively been "removal of the playstyle".

Yeah not sure about that. I've just started another game with babylon, little room for expansion so I captured *one* city state. Everyone on my continent denounces and DoWs. principly because one did and all the others followed with 'someone we like more denounced you'. I feel this has gone a bit full circle, I remember getting a bit fed up with warmonger penalties before, then it went a bit soft and you could be aggressive as hell and get away with it. I suppose on Emperor and lower it is much easier to be dominant in most regards so the AI defers to your strength. When they can field and army a number of times more plentiful than the human player and replace loses alarmingly fast I guess they think you're an easy target.

I'm still undecided with immortal. I'm not sure if, like Emperor, I'll improve and enjoy it or I'll have to change my play-style to win so ultimately end up not enjoying it.

EDIT: Actually just remembered unlike my usual games I stole a worker for a very early 2nd city (excellent petra spot and GBR!). So two DoWs from me I'd consider that fair game. Although the response has been pretty severe! Irritatingly from a Civ that has also conquered a CS :s !

 

[El Caballerion]

I'm a sole IMMORTAL/MARATHON player, but I find that I'm out-teched 4 out of 5 games. Even when I build all the wonders and have a good amount of productive cities, there's always a few cheating CIVS (and usually one runaway) that's an era ahead of me, making me usually quit before Industrial Age. If it wasn't for the massive fun I have in the pre-Industrial Ages, I would have quit CIV years ago.

 

[joshua43214]

Judging by your screen shots, I would say you are leaving your cities on default focus. this is fine for Emperor, but you really have to do some manual control on Immortal.

72bpt at T160 is less than I usually have when I play full Liberty early domination CB to artillery rush's. For a tradition opener, you should be looking at getting labs up very soon with a bpt of over 500 getting ready to go over 800.

Learn to manage your cities so they grow, ignore military techs unless next to Shaka, and focus on science like mad

 

[Maxym]

Looks like in almost 100% other cases of struggle to move up, you are not focused on growth. Try not to build any wonders save for NC, work food tiles (locked) have one mine improved for production focus trick to assign worker to and grow, grow, grow.

Also take advantage of common wars, if you fight Monte with AC, take the cities yourself. Start leveling up troops early, by this time you should have log and range XB, which not only will chew up muskets but rifles as well and cities up to 60 defence.

Steal worker if you don't mind, send trade routes to get ur bpt up, get DoFs and coalitions when warring and beeline education. Farm all riverside hexes.

 

[rodrigoq]

#1.. You have UNCUT trees! You should have hacked them fahkers down as soon as you got archery and BW teched and built an army. Then face stomped your neighbors.
#2 You probably didn't steal your neighbors starting worker(s?) 2 on diety, forgot what on AI get on immortal. Gotta criple em within first 20 turns.

Early archers + aggressive neighbor like Rome/zulu/aztecs/huns would have your x-bows leveled to something very nasty with +1 range and logistics by the time your SS indicated.

You generally don't need walls. 1 unit is better than walls IMO. I only ever build walls to get castles for neshwasenere WTH ever wonder. I also enjoy never ending wars vs militaristics civs, always a nice flow of units, and yo0u can pound a city down with archers and never capture it to level them up. My early armies are usually 2 spears, 3 archers, maybe a 4th. That generally can repel any diety level attack early game, and can take any city early game. 1 spear with medic promos, other with a high defensive promo in rough terrain. Rough terrain spearman tanks damage, medic heals other units and tank, when tank has to move, medic tanks while tank unit heals up. switch as needed, and pound cities with archers. I also like bringing a scout along to capture cities at 0hp. Especially heavily forested/hills/swamped cities. They are also good to steal cities from civs at war.. wait till they city can be hit by your scout, usually under 10 hp (it can happen) then DoW, attack and cap a city. =) Good luck defending it unless you annex it. Good way to level a 2nd army far from capital.

Another thing that Ive found works better on higher levels. Skip first caravan, and buy a settler instead. I really don't have any caravans till 3rd city is popped out. I also sell everything asap. If I'm hovering between 0-2 happiness, i'll keep a lux, if i'm 4+ happiness, i'll trade a lux. Archers/spears don't need horses or iron, sell that shiz off too, preferably to some weak civ miles away from you.

Immortal/Diety is all about early aggression, unless you get some super awesome starting location that allows you to sim peacefully. Still.. early aggression can crush potential runaway civs, and it's always nice to have lotsa puppets. Warmonger tag isn't bad.. it's a badge of whup-ass.

 

[killmeplease]

why didnt you settle East? it seems theres much room for expansion, and mountains just to the west seems like an awesome defensive barrier. i'd maybe put a fort or a citadel on the plains tile to the west from babylon to kill invading romans and expanded eastwards.

ideal meat grinder!