Keeping up with the tech race in the Modern Age

[Jokeslayer]

Quick background for this game, although this is a problem I encounter often

France, Monarch, Continents, 7 enemies, Vanilla

My continent had Me, Babylon, England and Germany on it. I wiped out Babylon early, England and Germany in the late Industrial Age. I was ahead of my continent but behind to the other one in the Ancient Age, caught them in the late Medieval and overtook them in the early Industrial with some help from the ToE.

At the start of the Modern Age, I was a little ahead of China (my only rival, as Greece, Egypt and Russia were all way behind). By the time I'd researched Fission, the Chinese had Ecology, and they've been ahead of me ever since. I'm keeping up in the space race (barely) by stealing techs when I can, buying them when I can't. I sold a lot of techs to the other countries so I could buy from China, and as a consequence they are now catching up. I'm still ahead of them by two or three techs, but I think they might be researching faster than me.

This is the first time I've played this high in a long time (I played a few games at Warlord I think, the second one up, then went back to Monarch) and I'm extremely keen not to lose. I already lost and reloaded twice, once by diplomacy and once in a nuclear war I started to try and eliminate China's space ship.

On a related note, in this game I haven't built any armies. The four or so GLs I've had have all gone on rushing wonders (Art of War, forbidden palace, Hoover Dam and UN). As far as I can tell, I'm not missing anything except the Heroic Epic by this. I don't expect to be in any more wars except maybe a few capital-bound surgical strikes and I've been so far ahead of my neighbours for so long that the wonders seemed more important than armies.

Thanks for reading a very long first post. I'm amazed people are still posting about Civ 3 after all these years.

 

[Aabraxan]

Welcome to CFC, Jokeslayer!

Do you happen to have a save you could post?

 

[Jokeslayer]

This should be from the turn before I declared war on the chinese. Note the large fleet near their capital.

Hopefully this will work.

Doesn't look like it did. Let's try again.

Nope. My filesize is too big, it says. I've uploaded it, but can't seem to attach it to the post. Any help?

 

[MAS]

You didn't ask a specific question, but if you need overall advice:
The game has a powerful exponential factor, this means: If a problem shows up at a later age, then it is almost always because you did something inefficient in an earlier age!

In my monarch games, I usually catch up with the AI at the early middle ages, then I'll start pulling ahead and stay ahead.
In my empire games, this time usually comes at a later stages in the middle ages.

The key to pulling this off is to expand progressively. Expand, expand, expand. More cities means more power, including research power, it also means less cities for the AI.
An other key to quickly catch up with the AI after your initial backward position in the ancient age, is to learn how to trade your way up to tech parity effectively.
This usually means you research up the tech tree first, so you get a monopoly tech, and trade for the lower level tech you passed.

If you need more specific advice, a saved game would be helpful.

 

[MAS]

my filesize is too big, it says. I've uploaded it, but can't seem to attach it to the post. Any help?

Did you, by any chance, used an auto-safe? Auto-saves are uncompressed, so use manually saved games instead. (by choosing "safe game" from teh main menu)

Also, I hope you are patched up to the last version (v 1.29f for vanilla) or else we can't open the save.

 

[Jokeslayer]

Did you, by any chance, used an auto-safe? Auto-saves are uncompressed, so use manually saved games instead. (by choosing "safe game" from teh main menu)

Also, I hope you are patched up to the last version (v 1.29f for vanilla) or else we can't open the save.

No, it was a manual save, came out at 1.75MB. Since I'm not patched, I'll have to leave it for now (I assume if I patch the game now, my saves become unloadable?). Oh well.

I guess I can't get much more specific without the save, though.

This usually means you research up the tech tree first, so you get a monopoly tech, and trade for the lower level tech you passed.

I did that in the medieval age, except it never really pays off against the tech leader. Maybe it's because I'm an untrustworthy war-mongering bastard, but I never seem to get enough pay-off.

Assuming the total amount is the same, would you rather trade an outdated tech (say, The Corporation while you're researching fission) for a lump sum or gpt (say, 400 or 20gpt). If I had something planned, like a mass upgrade or I needed to rush some culture in areas I'd just conquered, I'd take the lump sum, but I'm not sure which is better, if there's any difference at all. I think if I take gpt, they'll waste their stockpile on upkeep and stuff, instead of being able to sell it to me for something else later.

 

[civverguy]

You upload the save using the the upload file at the bottom of the page.

 

[MAS]

No, it was a manual save, came out at 1.75MB. Since I'm not patched, I'll have to leave it for now (I assume if I patch the game now, my saves become unloadable?). Oh well.

At least update for your next game, even if only for the extra control options added in the last patch.

(yeah, manual saves used to be uncompressed too, in an old patch version)

I guess I can't get much more specific without the save, though.

try a screen-shot!

I did that in the medieval age, except it never really pays off against the tech leader. Maybe it's because I'm an untrustworthy war-mongering bastard, but I never seem to get enough pay-off.

I trade to get tech parity and then pull ahead, meaning I'll become the tech leader (and stay that way) from the middle ages onward.

Assuming the total amount is the same, would you rather trade an outdated tech (say, The Corporation while you're researching fission) for a lump sum or gpt (say, 400 or 20gpt)

.

Thats what I do, if I go space race in Monarch difficulty, the AI is in industrial age, when I'm launching.

or I needed to rush some culture in areas I'd just conquered,

Aha, spotting inefficiencies! Unless you plan a 100k victory, it is rarely useful to rush anything in far away land, instead, just build more cities. Place them with 1 tile space between city centers, and build nothing in them, just wealth, and support specialist citizens with irrigation.

 

[Quintillus]

No, it was a manual save, came out at 1.75MB. Since I'm not patched, I'll have to leave it for now (I assume if I patch the game now, my saves become unloadable?). Oh well.

I guess I can't get much more specific without the save, though.

One of the Vanilla patches made the save files compressed? I never knew that. Probably because I only got the patch with Conquests. That would've saved me about 3 GB of disk space!

But having reloaded a few games after getting the last patch when I bought Conquests, I can confirm that you can load the uncompressed save files after applying the newest patch (1.29). So you can download the patch and load up your game and keep right on playing.

 

[Jokeslayer]

Aha, spotting inefficiencies! Unless you plan a 100k victory, it is rarely useful to rush anything in far away land, instead, just build more cities. Place them with 1 tile space between city centers, and build nothing in them, just wealth, and support specialist citizens with irrigation.

I'll focus on this bit. The only things I rush are temples or libraries (If I'm scientific) so that I can expand my cultural borders. And isn't there a number of cities based on map size, above which corruption and waste start to become stupidly high even in your core? (Is there a list of those numbers based on map size/difficulty somewhere?) Thinking about it, I'd save thousands of gold across an average game by not rushing culture after I conquer hicksville.

 

[Jokeslayer]

But having reloaded a few games after getting the last patch when I bought Conquests, I can confirm that you can load the uncompressed save files after applying the newest patch (1.29). So you can download the patch and load up your game and keep right on playing.

Cool. I'll do that now.

In the end, I won this game using a trick I found on another thread. I pushed my science rate to zero and stole the last tech I needed. Using a prebuild in my most productive city, I was able to beat the chinese to the last part and spread my glory to the stars.

 

[Aabraxan]

I'll focus on this bit. The only things I rush are temples or libraries (If I'm scientific) so that I can expand my cultural borders.

My question would be: Why expand your cultural borders with temples and libraries when you can expand your empire with armies and settlers? If you're going for a cultural win, temples and libraries in totally corrupt areas make some sense. If you're going for conquest, they may not. Temples should work just fine in terms of happiness and culture in wholly corrupt cities, but the only think you'll get from the libraries is culture and the maintenance cost. In the hinterlands (totally corrupt cities), corruption will eat up all the raw gold and your city won't produce enough beakers to generate any extra science. (Someone correct me if this is my misunderstanding of how libraries work.)

And isn't there a number of cities based on map size, above which corruption and waste start to become stupidly high even in your core? (Is there a list of those numbers based on map size/difficulty somewhere?)

I think that what you're referring to is the Optimal City Number. I'm unaware of any list that tells you what they are, but anyone who knows of one may feel free to correct me here. However, when you get to the hinterlands where every city is 90% corrupt, that's when you need specialist farms. That's what MAS was referring to here:

Place them with 1 tile space between city centers, and build nothing in them, just wealth, and support specialist citizens with irrigation.

Specialists aren't affected by corruption. There's an article in the War Academy entitled The Role of the Specialist Citizen. It's a good primer on specialists. I usually set my specialist farms to building artillery or settlers, rather than wealth. I can always use another settler or artillery, but it requires a little extra micromanagement for the towns that build settlers.

 

[MAS]

I'll focus on this bit. The only things I rush are temples or libraries (If I'm scientific) so that I can expand my cultural borders. And isn't there a number of cities based on map size, above which corruption and waste start to become stupidly high even in your core? (Is there a list of those numbers based on map size/difficulty somewhere?) Thinking about it, I'd save thousands of gold across an average game by not rushing culture after I conquer hicksville.

The corruption effect extra cities have in your core is barely noticeable, except if you use the communist government, but you won't catch me advising communism to you lightly. (maybe in very special situations, that usually only happen if you play a game with variant rules.)

As for the totally corrupt cities far away from your core: Thats exactly why you shouldn't build any city improvements in them!
A 90% corrupt city still produces 1 uncorrupted commerce and one unwasted shield. And food is never lost to corruption.
That shield will become 1 gpt by producing wealth.
The food can be used to support specialist citizens, the output of specialist is also never lost to corruption.
So if you have a city in grassland, and all tiles around it are irigated and railed, you'll have 2 citizens working the land producing 8 food, +2 from the center, so that is 10 food. enough for 5 citizens, 2 working the land, and 3 taxman. This size 5 city will thus produce 4 gpt +1 commerce (and that will likely be a science beaker, if you set the SCI slider high)

Now imagine you have 100 of those cities, that is 400 gpt!

But building city improvements will just cost you maintenance.
You don't need the culture, if you want more land under your control, just plant a city, and you'll get 9 tiles painted your color. If enemy culture is bugging you, destroy/conquer their cities and their culture is reduced.

One of the Vanilla patches made the save files compressed? I never knew that. Probably because I only got the patch with Conquests. That would've saved me about 3 GB of disk space!

Err, the game produced uncompressed saves before a certain version, and compressed saves after a certain version. If you bought the "complete" package, it should be latest version, and thus produce compressed saves.

There is a break in compatibility somewhere as well, but this has nothing to do with the compression. Compressed just means the data is ordered in a more file-size efficient way, kind of like what .zip does.

 

[ilovesimgolf]

Thats exactly why you shouldn't build any city improvements in them!

MAS,

I must disagree with you. Those far-flung cities near the border with the AI should be used for culture. When you think about it, you can:

a) Protect the city from culture flip (without war)
b) Earn extra land from the culture flip (without war - diplomatic victory)

Tell me if I'm wrong, but building heavy cultural centres at your borders always seemed like a good idea to me.

--ilovesimgolf

 

[PaperBeetle]

Why do something without war if you could do it with war? Especially if doing it with war is more profitable? Even diplo wins... you still kill everyone you don't want in the game, you just do it in a slightly more honourable fashion.

 

[Jokeslayer]

MAS,

I must disagree with you. Those far-flung cities near the border with the AI should be used for culture. When you think about it, you can:

a) Protect the city from culture flip (without war)
b) Earn extra land from the culture flip (without war - diplomatic victory)

Tell me if I'm wrong, but building heavy cultural centres at your borders always seemed like a good idea to me.

--ilovesimgolf

I have wondered exactly how culture flipping works. Is it based on the total culture of your empire versus theirs, on nearby cities or a combination of both. If it's the total, there wouldn't be as much point rushing culture in the borders.

 

[MAS]

I city is at risk of flipping (any risk) when enemy culture occupies any of the 20 tiles within the city 2 tile city radius. And when there are foreign citizens.

If a city is at flip risk, then the chance is based on a combination enemy total civ wide culture vs your civ wide culture. and the culture of the specific indevidual city vs the culture of the local enemy city(s)

The chance an individual city will flip can be reduced by placing military units inside (units with any att and deff value higher than 0) the number of units you need is based on the city size. And with enough units flip-chance can be reduced to 0%

To deal with flipping with low culture:
Destroy enemy cities near your border, better yet, conquer your entire home continent, flip chance gone!

If you still have colonies (in the form of cities, not actual in-game colonies) at other continents, and you don't want to conquer more, keep these at size 1 and place a stack of 4 units inside. (I may build some culture in such colony-cities, but since there are only few, this is not going to impact my income)

 

[Jokeslayer]

Thanks MAS. Another very helpful post.