Knights, Camera, Action!

[futurehermit]

I am currently playing a game as the powerful Darius.

I immortal-rushed Cathy who built me a number of cities. She was to my E. I had no one to my W and a pretty sizeable chunk of land there. To my south past a narrowing in the continent were Shaka to the W and Pericles to the E.

They were too far away and Shaka's uu and Pericles' swords made a sustained immortal assault impossible. So, I settled down to settling the remainder of the large chunk of land I had available.

My power graph slipped enough that Shaka eventually declared war on me after finishing a war with Pericles.



He threw 2 mid-sized stacks at me and I was very concerned. I couldn't hold the city that was closest to him so I withdrew the defenders and just let him have it.

I had been beelining guilds (thankfully) because...da da da da!...I realized that since the AI is teching slower than in warlords (monarch/normal) that both Shaka and Pericles were still a long ways away from engineering and therefore my upgraded immortals and newly-built knights could do a lot of damage.

A small force of knights easily slaughtered all of Shaka's advanced force and he was later willing to sign peace...whew!

Once I have enough knights I am going to wipe my continent clean. And the funny thing is I probably won't attack until after 1000AD and they STILL won't have pikes yet

So, I'm thinking...the knights beeline is back in business I think that if you take the less-commonly-used low-road to knights that you can have a significant window of opportunity before your opponents get pikes where you can do all sorts of damage sort of like we used to do with cavalry. A mix of flanking and combat knights do great against longbows and don't really fear any unit besides elephants I guess prior to pikes.

Let me know how it goes

 

[Juvenal]

It's about bloody time! Knights ruled the world in Civ 3, didn't they?

 

[Chrispy]

I had a similar experience with Justinian and the Byzantines, but I just chalked it up to the power of the Cataphract. In retrospect, there weren't any pikemen around.

And Cataphracts make this beeline dominant longer, as they can hold their own against Elephants and Pikemen.

 

[DrLaban]

I have noticed that knights are very powerful as well, and I like it! There's a reason why they were dominant in warfare for so long (well in Western Europe at least, but if keshiks were knight- replacements as they should they and the camels would make up for the cultural differences). I have noticed that even if the AI has pikes, you can always add catapults with shock or combat promotions. A pike doesn't have an insane advantage over a knight and after collateral damage they are usually smoked. Knights with shock is good for this as well.

Edit: Yeah elephants are a pain in the ass. Especially when my conquistadors were smashing underdeveloped Egyptians, it really ruined the mood when the elephants kicked their asses

 

[Scaphism]

I have noticed that knights are very powerful as well, and I like it! There's a reason why they were dominant in warfare for so long (well in Western Europe at least, but if keshiks were knight- replacements as they should they and the camels would make up for the cultural differences). I have noticed that even if the AI has pikes, you can always add catapults with shock or combat promotions. A pike doesn't have an insane advantage over a knight and after collateral damage they are usually smoked. Knights with shock is good for this as well.

Edit: Yeah elephants are a pain in the ass. Especially when my conquistadors were smashing underdeveloped Egyptians, it really ruined the mood when the elephants kicked their asses

I'm glad to hear this because I pretty much never used knights, but they're such an iconic western military unit that their absence felt strange.

I have a question though - is the Conquistador still a knight replacement or does it replace the cuirassier? I can't check right now, but playing Spain in Rhye's has Conquistators at Astronomy. The +50% versus melee is practically worthless coming that late. Being able to fortify is always nice but if you're still fighting melee units at Astronomy you're fighting some really backwards Civs, and at that point you hardly need the bonus to win.

 

[futurehermit]

Conquistadors now replace cuirassiers.

I'm thinking now that the cataphract is an OWNAGE uu. Complete OWNAGE.

 

[dankok8]

I'm thinking now that the cataphract is an OWNAGE uu. Complete OWNAGE.

I tried them out .. they do OWN the medieval age and can stand their ground against pikes and war elephants, which are supposed to be counters. Cataphracts are IMO the most powerful UU in the game after the praetorian and are not outdated until rifling. As Byzantium, you should never build or upgrade to cuirassiers.

 

[frob2900]

I tried them out .. they do OWN the medieval age and can stand their ground against pikes and war elephants, which are supposed to be counters. Cataphracts are IMO the most powerful UU in the game after the praetorian and are not outdated until rifling. As Byzantium, you should never build or upgrade to cuirassiers.

So now ancient Rome has Praetorians (melee death machines), and the medieval Romans (aka Byzantines) have Cataphracts (mounted death machines). What's with all the Roman hugging going on at Firaxis?

 

[kniteowl]

I tried them out .. they do OWN the medieval age and can stand their ground against pikes and war elephants, which are supposed to be counters. Cataphracts are IMO the most powerful UU in the game after the praetorian and are not outdated until rifling. As Byzantium, you should never build or upgrade to cuirassiers.

Cataphracts, haven't tried them yet as I'm too busy :S... but They're not immune to 1st strikes so I've wonder how significant that disadvantage was.

From the post on this thread it seems almost to minor a disadvantage, but I might promote them to cuirassiers, if I happen to come up against a Drill 4 units because cuirassiers are immune to 1st strikes.

 

[futurehermit]

not being immune to first strikes mean they are going to get damaged, but not killed necessarily. so make sure you have a medic 3 unit in your stack.

 

[NaZdReG]

I don't usually beeline knights, but it seems damn handy to atleast try.

what do you consider the ideal beeline?

NaZ

 

[MangleMeElmo]

Nice. I don't have BTS yet but I want to play as Justinian first. Flanking II Cataphracts shouldn't be hard to get because Justinian is Spiritual/Imperialistic. A couple settled generals + a quick switch to Theocracy/Vassalage would probably make Cataphracts the terror of the middle ages.

 

[axident]

Conquistadors now replace cuirassiers.

I'm thinking now that the cataphract is an OWNAGE uu. Complete OWNAGE.

I agree. I was doing pretty well in one game where I REX'd like mad as Bismark. Oracle-->COL for cost control courthouses, plenty of whipping, and I even captured 3 cities from my western neighbor. I had a decently sized force to my east, which bordered Justinian's land. He was rather quiet for a while, then out of nowhere a bazillion cataphracts backed by siege engines appear and I gave up at that point. No way I could build enough pikes to stop him before he reached my core cities, and even then, he had enough support infantry to make it extremely hard for just pikemen alone to stop. Shock Cataphract = the anti-pike. Ugh.

 

[futurehermit]

I don't usually beeline knights, but it seems damn handy to atleast try.

what do you consider the ideal beeline?

NaZ

i'm not sure. it's hard because machinery (unless you get an early GE) and feudalism, as well as guilds, are very difficult to lightbulb.

so it's mostly self-research. i would say just tech it straight out once you have your immediate priorities in place.

 

[Dnomal]

The Byzanint UU is really fun to use, but not so fun to fight against i think...

Also, you really should upgrade when you can (although there's no rush to get to the techs). Because the Crusailler will have the same strength and immunity to first strikes, and an increased withdrawl chance (by which point you might need).

 

[futurehermit]

Tried out Byzantines today. Couldn't seem to get it to work out. The guilds beeline is still tricky. And in the 2 games I tried the AIs got to engg or guilds faster than I would've liked. Of course trading around metal casting was a stupid move on my part...I'll be sure to correct that error in the future.

The UU is solid though and destroys longbows. But you really do have to prevent the AI from getting metal casting as long as possible. Machinery leads to maces, pikes, and knights none of which you want to be fighting if at all possible or at least for as long as possible.

Another game I tried I forgot to get currency and col before expanding (just went pure guilds beeline). That was a huge mistake because it crippled my econ.

So, I think you should go: worker techs-currency/col-archery-monarchy-metcast-hbriding-feudalism-machinery-guilds

Avoid trading metcast and monarchy for as long as possible. And do not trade feudalism or machinery.

From there it's just a matter of:

1) How many knights you can create asap

and

2) How many cities can you conquer before the AIs get pikes/knights

 

[NaZdReG]

given the need for a GE to speed things up.. how about leading off your build with the pyramids and let an engineer cook for a while? if you oracle sling add a forge for an engineer. or just do that while working towads currency.

I haven't played with them at all so have yet to see it in action.

NaZ

 

[PanzerEric]

Conquistadors now replace cuirassiers.

I'm thinking now that the cataphract is an OWNAGE uu. Complete OWNAGE.

The Cataphract is the new Pratoreon. I have played a couple of games as Justinian I and the Cata rules up to Rifles. Now that Military Tradition only gives Cuirissares (spelling?), the Cataphrat has the same 12 strength and 2 movement but comes way earlier in the tech tree. Cataphracts also break even with Grenadiers.

Cataphract ==== ownage. Like I said earlier it's the new Pratoreon.

 

[futurehermit]

given the need for a GE to speed things up.. how about leading off your build with the pyramids and let an engineer cook for a while? if you oracle sling add a forge for an engineer. or just do that while working towads currency.

I haven't played with them at all so have yet to see it in action.

NaZ

yeah, i was thinking about this as well. if you could nab MC with oracle and machinery with a GE that would speed things up A LOT. but getting both oracle and pyramids early on can be tricky sometimes. i will have to test it out.

pyramids is also great with a SE which i would want to run temporarily to be able to whip a lot of cataphracts quickly.

i forgot to mention to that the UB allows for long protracted war since it is a great counter to rising WW penalties.

 

[kniteowl]

What tech would be the best for a Guilds Beeline?

MC seems to be a Given because you can Build a Forge and Assign an Engineer for a GE.

But Feudalism seems like a good choice also because you need Feudalism to in order to research Guilds and since you're spiritual switching to Vassalage for that extra XP is a nice bonus and the Serfdom Civic plus HR from Monarchy Means Cottage Spamming for Quicker Research.

Hmmm...

I've been trying out the Feudalism Sling With Saladin, for the fact that he's Protective and he has a Knight UU.

maybe I'll Try MC for a Forge and GE and Trade for Feudalism and compare Times...

I think the Arab UU is Ok because I just realized that Knights require 2 resources (horses & Iron) and if you happen to be missing one... :S... I feel sorry for the Byzantines if they happen to be lacking one of those resource... well not really if I'm planning to attack them lol!

Btw would it be easier to Produce a GM to go on a trade mission, build a Stack of Chariots/Horse Archers and just upgrade them to Knight once You finish researching Guilds.