Korean History

[Knight-Dragon]

This is continuing fr the Korean thread in the Civ3 - General Discussions forum.

Originally posted by stationery2
No, the first substantial korean state is definitely not Koguryo.
It come around 37 B.C and the the Old Chosun was around about 3000 years before that.

That's before even the first substantiated proto-Chinese state (the Shang) in the Huanghe river valley. This is the first time I'd heard about this. Is there some website detailing this information? I'm very interested.

And about korea ruling china, that's just a theory. And about korea being there before china as well. It could have been true, it might be a baloony.

I just find it hard to believe that a Korean kingdom ruled China 5000 years ago. But of course in those days, China didn't exist. Nor did Korea.

But it is certain that the first 'substantial' korean state was Chosun and it was around from 5000 years ago, and it's territory was at least as far as present day beijing.
Kight-Dragon, you're right about the part that Korea as we know now is formed in Koryo period.

The Beijing area was considered only partially Chinese, even in Han times I think.

Well, to talk about some more history, after Chosun and all its subsidiary collapsed, korea was seperated into many states. In the end, only three of them survived - Kogury, Shila and Baekjae.
Koguryo was the first one to be established, and shila the last.
However, shila was the one who reunited the korea with the alliance of Tang (china). Because shila didn't unite korea by itself, Tang took Koguryo's territoy. (This Koguryo territory comes back later in korean history.

The Tang allied with Shila against the Koguryo first. However later, Shila revoked the alliance I think and reunified the country. Then made peace with the Tang, who began experiencing serious border problems with the Tibetans.

A country called Balhae gets the land back, but after they lose it, that part of korea is gone forever. Well at least up to now.)

Parrhae was later subdued by the Jurchens (the Jin). It encompassed eastern Manchuria today. Not likely to revert to any form of Korean rule now.

But Koguryo was probably second strongest Korean state in korean history, after Old Chosun.

The Koguryo were certainly strong enough to kick the Han remnants out of N Korea. They proved to be a thorny neighbour.

 

[stationery2]

I'm pretty surprised that you know extensive deal of korean history and think that Koguryo was the first korean nation.
I'll try to look for a website.
I said 3000 years before, but it's just a round about figure. It's a bit shorter than that.

I didn't exactly mean that korea ruled china, but what I meant was that part of present day chinese lad was actually korean land.

Abd that's right shila broke the alliance to truly unify korea, but during the process, they couldn't get back the old Koguryo territory which is present day Manchuria.

Of course it's not likely that Balhae land (same manchuria) will be back into korean rule anymore. But no one knows about the future. How do you know whaever will happen? Anyway, that land is lost from korea.

yes, Koguryo was as strong as Han at that time.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by stationery2
I'm pretty surprised that you know extensive deal of korean history and think that Koguryo was the first korean nation.

Only know bits and pieces, but I am pretty sure Koguryo was the first reasonably 'Korean' state.

I'll try to look for a website.
I said 3000 years before, but it's just a round about figure. It's a bit shorter than that.

Thanks!

I didn't exactly mean that korea ruled china, but what I meant was that part of present day chinese lad was actually korean land.

Yeah, lots of present day China was conquered over the centuries. At the time of the First Empire, all of South China was a wild frontier, along with Manchuria and bits and parts of the north.

Abd that's right shila broke the alliance to truly unify korea, but during the process, they couldn't get back the old Koguryo territory which is present day Manchuria.

Koguryo covered N Korea and S Manchuria. Later on, Manchuria was ruled by native tribes; sometimes ethnic Korean, sometimes other like Jurchen, Bohai etc. It was only with illegal Chinese immigration into Manchuria late in the Qing period that Manchuria became Chinese.

Of course it's not likely that Balhae land (same manchuria) will be back into korean rule anymore. But no one knows about the future. How do you know whaever will happen? Anyway, that land is lost from korea.

Manchuria is completely dominated by Chinese today (50 million at least). I think the problem now is whether the Chinese'd try to get back the Russian lands to the east of Manchuria. These shld be Chinese (Qing actually) per an old Russo-Qing treaty but broken later on when China weakened and Russia became stronger. It's a continual thorn in Russo-Chinese relations even today.

yes, Koguryo was as strong as Han at that time.

I doubt they were as strong as the Han, since the Han commanderies in N Korea only fell sometime after the home empire had collapsed. But certainly strong enough to overrun some Chinese-held territories and more importantly, held on to them.

 

[stationery2]

no way.

Koguryo was not even close to being the first korean nation.

It's Baedal (legendary) and than Chosun than there were so many states that are seperated from chosun and than Buyo and Koguryo gets seperated from Buyo.

I'm still looking for a web site, but Chosun is certainly the first korean state.
Koguryo comes only around 30~40 b.c. like i said.
And korean history goes back to 5000 years ago.

Where did you learn that?

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Remembered reading it in some books. Anyway, Chosun may have existed but can it be considered sufficiently 'Korean' and the original nation of today's Korea?

I meant it in much the same sense that Egypt of the Pharaohs is not exactly the same as the Egypt of today. The Egypt of today is Arabic; the original Egypt is Pharaonic.

Anyway, enough said.

 

[stationery2]

Well, I don't unserstand what you mean.
Sorry.
Isn't Egypt Egypt as it was in the ancients times?
What has changed is their religion. Is the change of religion mean change of their language, culture, and heritage?
Or how about if their culture changed and the religion stayed?
In that sense, nothing is a descendent or follower of something.
Because to be a 'successor', something should be different.
If Egypt did not undergo any change, we wouldn't call today's Egypt the decent of the ancient Egypt.
It would be the same Egypt from the beginning.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Well, never mind. Enough said, as said before.

What I mean is; while the land is still called Egypt but the people has changed a lot over the past few thousand yrs. New peoples (Greeks, Romans, Arabs etc) had moved in and mixed with the people. Became Christian awhile, then Islamic. Egyptians of today are not the same people as those who built the Pyramids. Esp culturally.

 

[stationery2]

Well, in that sense, no one deserves to be called what they are now.
No one is French, no one is Mexican, no one is Indian....
And since humans probably all originated from the same ancestor, what's the point of dividing people in your point of view?

 

[Knight-Dragon]

But the Chinese of today are pretty much recognizably Chinese as at the time of the First Empire, circa 221 BCE. With the same written language, naming conventions, govt system (up till 1911), core territory, people etc.

Whereas, Egypt today is Arab, Islamic and Semite. Ancient Egypt OTOH was Black (some scholars argued thus), Pharaonic, worshipped the old Egyptian gods and goddesses and used hierographics for its written language.

But never mind, enough said. Really. Let's stop arguing about this point.

 

[stationery2]

I want to stop as well, but i'll say one more thing.
Korea didn't change either.
Isn't it rather chinese who got mingled with all sorts of people and lost it's identity?
While korea is less mixed and is a homogeneous society.
(This doesn't mean koreans are all korean decent. There must be other races mixed. However, koreans recognize themselves as koreans not any other people like we do in Canada.)
I think korea rather preserves its identity from the ancient times.

 

[stationery2]

In fact we don't need to stop.
We are not arguing out of emotion are we?
We are productively discussing a topic.
We are not fighting.
So, i think it's ok to go on.

 

[akinkhoo]

Manchuria is completely dominated by Chinese today (50 million at least). I think the problem now is whether the Chinese'd try to get back the Russian lands to the east of Manchuria. These shld be Chinese (Qing actually) per an old Russo-Qing treaty but broken later on when China weakened and Russia became stronger. It's a continual thorn in Russo-Chinese relations even today.

Manchuria broke from China during WW2 when Japan offer the de-throne Qing emperor the land as a puppet state... Soviet declared war with Japan and invaded Manchuria (not part of china at that time).... when the war ended Soviet did not return the land it conquer to China later Soviet absorb Mongolia as well The land shouldn't be theirs! Russia don't own the land of manchuria and as allies the land should be returned since the union is gone....

I want to stop as well, but i'll say one more thing.
Korea didn't change either.
Isn't it rather chinese who got mingled with all sorts of people and lost it's identity?
While korea is less mixed and is a homogeneous society.
(This doesn't mean koreans are all korean decent. There must be other races mixed. However, koreans recognize themselves as koreans not any other people like we do in Canada.)
I think korea rather preserves its identity from the ancient times.

Chinese don't mingled, chinese assimilate! we "impress them with our culture" and subvert other culture. the Qing became a Chinese empire and not a Manchurian empire!

 

[stationery2]

Mingled, or assimilated. Whatever

And you are saying chinese assimilated others, than what about self-governing groups in china? You call that assimilation?
And even if China assimilated others, does that mean china never
got influenced by others at all?
The bottom line is that chinese are not the chinese as they were in the ancient times.
While koreans are rather maintaining the same kind of ethnic makeup and culture.
Speaking about assimilation, korea did a better job at that.
While some 'chinese' still consider themselves as 'not chinese' (like mongolian group, korean group and all sorts of people all think themselves different, speak different lanquage and maintain their culture right?), all the koreans recognize themselves as koreans. There's no one in korea who says something like 'I'm not korean.', although chinese, mongolian, japanese and others probably mixed in with koreans.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by stationery2
And you are saying chinese assimilated others, than what about self-governing groups in china? You call that assimilation?

The assimilation had all taken part in the preceding centuries or even millenium, following specifically the spread of Chinese-style agriculture around what is today China. Probably 90% or more of the Chinese today aren't even remotely considered Chinese in Shang times.

The assimilation process continues today too.

And even if China assimilated others, does that mean china never got influenced by others at all?

Culturally not much. The Chinese even kept the imperial dynastic system till the yr 1911. China is a big country and it takes a lot to change or move it. To her dismay in the confrontation with the West and Japan.

Of coz now, China is playing a long catch-up game with the West. Tremble when China really catches up. Now I'd say they're still a long way fr there. Westernization...

The bottom line is that chinese are not the chinese as they were in the ancient times.

Many of the Chinese today are not. That's the whole point about the assimilation process - most were assimilated into the Chinese cultural fold after adopting Chinese agricultural practises and its attached social norms/traditions etc over the years.

The core culture is still Chinese. Chinese writing today can still be traced to their original Shang pictorial precedents more than 3000 yrs ago. Along with items such as ancestor worship and so on.

While koreans are rather maintaining the same kind of ethnic makeup and culture.

That's cause Korea is smaller. China is too big to be so simplified or easily unified. It's successful enough when 1 billion plus people consider themselves Chinese, excl those in many other countries outside China.

Speaking about assimilation, korea did a better job at that. While some 'chinese' still consider themselves as 'not chinese' (like mongolian group, korean group and all sorts of people all think themselves different, speak different lanquage and maintain their culture right?), all the koreans recognize themselves as koreans. There's no one in korea who says something like 'I'm not korean.', although chinese, mongolian, japanese and others probably mixed in with koreans.

Those 'Chinese' are not Chinese. They're ethnic Mongols or Koreans who live in China and are citizens of it. In time, they may too.

Look specifically at the Han Chinese; these are the results of centuries, millenia of cultural assimilation.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

I have checked up on my history book. Seems that Old Chosun was, towards the end at least, ruled by a Chinese rebel fr a failed rebellion in China and his lineage.

The first purely native Korean kingdom was Koguryo. Even then, the Chinese still maintained their hold in part of N Korea (the Lolang commandery) till a few decades after the fall of the Han.

 

[stationery2]

You mean ghija chosun aren't you?
We say Old chosun as a general tern, but there are so many of them like ghija chosun, wiman chosun, etc....
There is a controversy whether it is true or not. Some people say it was a fabrication.
I can't say for sure either, but further study is needed.
In korea, the generally accepted view is that the 'rebel' you mentioned is actually korean descendent who had gone to china, before he came back and took over chosun.
Like I said before, korean history is so diluted and hidden because of surrounding countries.
Some of it may due to china's victory over korea and mongolians who ruthlessly destroyed everything including the records and japanese who destroyed, as well as looted and invented korean history.
Anyway, the point is, chosun was the first.
If you insist on Koguryo, look for some information on Buyo, from which Koguryo stemed out. And others like Gaya and jinhan, mahan, byunhan, which were situated in the southern part of the peninsula at the time.
Maybe our views are different because you studied far-eastern history in china and i studied it in korea.
Let me hear from you.
I don't need to get into to much argument because i'm not even korean.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by stationery2
Maybe our views are different because you studied far-eastern history in china and i studied it in korea.
Let me hear from you.
I don't need to get into to much argument because i'm not even korean.

I have never studied history in school if that's what you mean or being anywhere near China or Korea. I like reading up on general history though. Personal interest.

 

[stationery2]

oh. ok.
I learned far eastern history in korea, major interest being in korean history.

 

[akinkhoo]

weight & length measurement, unified civil order, writing, art, poem, religion, language, ideology, trading and education system can be track back as early as ch'in. alot of people in china still have distinct trait today which mark them apart from "han" chinese, those are local culture trait. when studied, they are indeed unique. but alot of their culture are still very similiar and could only be found in that of chinese culture.

thus proving assimilation of china.

outside china, it have became a culture center, japan have adopted some chinese idealogy, and some writing which are referable to their own language. their ability to maintain their own culture while adopting new ones have always been a strong trait of japanese. allowing them to modernize and westernize rapidly and even beating the west in their own game of new imperialism order, later on.

china, japan and korea have also adopted something from further outside. indian religion converted many, and there introduce to us by their monks. india spead it to china and china spead it to korea and korea spread it to japan.

but it is also the cultural achievement in china which made chinese "self big" (direct translation) and they pay a heavily price to the mongol, manchus and later japan and western powers. just like in civ3 i guess... a strong culture is no match for strong army!

you can go to this site http://www.paulnoll.com/history-maps-dynasty.html for historical china map. the great wall could be seen as a border, any land outside it is usually weakly controlled.

I never see china as a strong country historically, being such a big country, it should have done better that getting it ass kick by small neighbours! china always seem to think it is so powerful..... our "self big" mind will be our downfall *AGAIN*