KoS2 - There can be only war

[mjg5591]

@kossin

As for spy in Kish I just picked anything. I knew I was done set. It's why I mentioned it post.

Building monastery for culture also to keep gold from WK. This was my thinking anyway.

Agree here also about settling GG in Uruk. I though maybe Kish to settle to be closer to action.

Think we need settle islands west soon. WK starts settling islands with GLH he may start teching away.

Another concern here is Boudica might start being threat to send units also as she is runing out of room to expand.

I keep forgetting about begging gold. Nice catch here. I need to make a note on my laptop to beg, beg, and beg some more.

 

[cripp7]

Got it! Sorry I haven't been putting in my opinions, but I'm trusting the team.

kossin's plan sounds good
begging will help raise the slider
Settling the horse/clam island will give us our HAs once HBR is stolen.
As far as Uruk working the pigs, putting a market will net +4.5 per turn 2pop whip with overflow into a settler. Or vise-versa
Agree on the GG also.
What units should be coming out of Eridu?

 

[Stochastic]

Nice job pulling up our currency up, thank goodness for that!

WK: pig for wine

Yes

Why another spy? We already have a few sleeping in Kish.

I don't think the spy is that bad, we will probably loose one of our 2 spies relatively soon, a backup would be nice.

Gold: beg for all gold from everyone since it's <100 and they're all Pleased.

Agree, if we can beg all the gold from the friendlies, we’d have 194 gold. We need 240 gold to max out Construction right now, but that will get cheaper as turns go by. I haven’t calculated it out, but if we leave Uruk building wealth for one turn we should be able to 100% the turn after that.

Lagash: monastery ain't gonna be a huge help anytime soon. Maybe a barracks and work the gold rather than copper? We can't sustain growth there anyway.

I think the monastery is a good choice, the %research will be useful in such a commerce high city (should cottage the grasslands), and we will probably want to build a few buddhist missionaries to convert the rest of our cities, and Lagash has decent hammers to do that when working the copper. Though people should try to remember to switch to working the gold when the slider is at 100%,

We should consider settling 1 or 2 island cities. Trade routes will be golden and 2 cities will ensure everyone of our cities get two 2 trade routes.

I agree with this. We should send the galley west to the island west of Uruk to check if there are any other resources there. That city might be the best island city to settle first, it will help discourage WK from spreading further along the coast. After that definitely settle the horse clam.
So maybe build market (happy will be useful as well) after one more turn of wealth?

@kossin
Another concern here is Boudica might start being threat to send units also as she is runing out of room to expand.

Agree, we should try to get two archers and a spear in Ur.

As far as Uruk working the pigs, putting a market will net +4.5 per turn 2pop whip with overflow into a settler. Or vise-versa
Agree on the GG also.
What units should be coming out of Eridu?

Nice plan with the market, I think Eridu should build a bit of defense for Ur, then Elephants. Other cities should go for Catapults, because (in my experience) they have a higher casualty rate, so we want to avoid spending high XP hammers on units that will likely die off.

 

[kossin]

Monastery will be worth like 0.5 research per turn given our maintenance costs.

 

[mjg5591]

Monastery was 2 fold here IMO. For the science boost and culture help to keep the 2nd gold from WK.

But Kossin's suggestions about barracks isn't bad either. We can prolly expect bigger stacks in the future and having better units coming out up near the battles might be worth it.

Up to the team.

Also agree with Stoch about getting more military in UR. Have to expect Boudica will start sending units soon.

Having fun though in this and Kossin's other SG. I'm usually the guy who doesn't go to war unless it's a rush until atleast rifles. So this is nice new experiance and twists for me.

 

[cripp7]

I'll try to get my turn in tomorrow morning, if I can't, I might have to pass

 

[mjg5591]

NP Cripp, if you can't i'm sure we can swap you in the order.

 

[cripp7]

turns out that I'm not going to be able to play civ for a while I'll keep in touch with the board to see the game updates. Hopefully will be able to get out Shaka once construction is in

 

[kossin]

Fair enough, take care in the meantime!

1. kossin
2. Stochastic
3. mjg5591 - Just played
4. cripp7 - skipped
5. Meerk - UP!
6. The Simple Mind - On deck

 

[Meerk]

Right. I will look through the notes and plan to play tonight!

 

[Meerk]

This may be a pretty short turn set -- I am rather pressed for time. I will play until construction is in.

Pre-turn

Beg 40 from WK, 40 from SB, and 60 from Lizzy. They were all very gracious about it.

I bump research to 100%.

Settled gg in Uruk.

Kish making gold
Uruk starts market, works pig
Lagash starts barracks, works gold

600 AD
Eridu Spear -> spear

620 AD
1 Million and counting!

Not much, Saladin backs his stack out of view. I move a few units up towards cities.

Reduce tech slider to 80%, since it will still net us construction in 2 turns. Put 10% into espionage for the plan of stealing HBR. Two spies in Pyongyang are waiting for the chance to shine.

640 AD
One of the spies is caught. Pyongyang has some serious anti-espionage!
At the same time, needed to pump research back up to 90% in order to avoid slowing construction, which seems the top priority.

Uruk unhappy, going to wait a turn and plan to whip market next turn.


660 AD
Construction in. Set metal casting as a placeholder.
Eridu finished spear, started a catapult.

I am ending turnset here, due to my time limitations. Also, I don't think we have agreed on what to research next.

Saladin has moved his stack to Pyongyang. I don't believe it will be a major threat unless he gets more reinforcements:

Boudica has moved her gallic warrior down next to UR. Somehow I didn't see that coming, although it was obvious in retrospect. Too rushed I guess. We may want to move another vulture down that way, and we certainly need to move the workers out of the neighborhood. I *think* UR should be safe, since it's only one unit.

It looks like we have enough EPs on WK to steal tech once we get to 50% discount, unless I misunderstood (steal tech is listed at 713 from Pyongyang, where spy is waiting):

 

[Meerk]

Also, I wanted to say sorry that I didn't have more time this evening. I wanted to keep the ball rolling, so I figured a short turn was better than waiting.

 

[Stochastic]

Pre-turn

Beg 40 from WK, 40 from SB, and 60 from Lizzy. They were all very gracious about it.

[snip]

Reduce tech slider to 80%, since it will still net us construction in 2 turns. Put 10% into espionage for the plan of stealing HBR. Two spies in Pyongyang are waiting for the chance to shine.

640 AD
One of the spies is caught. Pyongyang has some serious anti-espionage!
At the same time, needed to pump research back up to 90% in order to avoid slowing construction, which seems the top priority.

[snip]

Boudica has moved her gallic warrior down next to UR. Somehow I didn't see that coming, although it was obvious in retrospect. Too rushed I guess. We may want to move another vulture down that way, and we certainly need to move the workers out of the neighborhood. I *think* UR should be safe, since it's only one unit.

:rubs hands: Excellent, fresh turns... Thanks for serving them up! Unfortunately I can't look at the save right now, More detailed comments to come later.

Good to know about the gold!

Pyong ate our last spy too, he probably sold out our network in exchange for amnesty in the technologically superior lands of Korea. Or maybe they were both sent to the Silver mines in the north.
Did it turn out that Pyongyang was cheaper to steal from than Chenju and the other one because of trade routes?

In terms of techs, I think WK has metal casting? We can hopefully steal it from him, I don't think we will have the spare hammers to build the forges we will get as now we want to churn out an army to take out Shaka. Maybe go for Aesthetics for trade value?

Yeah, not sure what we could do about Ur right now, we can't whip immediately. I think you are probably right about it being safe, how fortified is the Vulture? Is there any point in leaving one worker as bait? On the other hand, even if we do loose Ur, we could re take it in 3 turns if we use the choke units.

 

[kossin]

Looks good, I'll have a look at the save tomorrow when I am on my computer... Kinda hard on my iPod!

 

[Stochastic]

Ok, looking at the save now that I've finished making cookies.

Trades that should be done on the inherited turn:
WK will trade wine for pigs, that will solve our unhappy problem in Uruk.
He will also give 3 gpt for clam.

Uruk and Eridu would then each have one surplus health, the rest of our cities will have less. Eridu will be at the limit for usable tiles when it grows one more, and Uruk is in a similar position, so I don’t think trading away those health resources will be a problem in the short term. Health is not as important to WK right now, happy is more important in the early game, so WK won’t be getting much from us.

In short, I don’t see any downside to those two trades and, unless anyone disagrees, should be done asap.

Other trade possibility:
WK is willing to give us HBR and 100 for Currency. The gold would fund excatly 2.5 rounds of 100% research, or 250 beakers (we are currently at 100bpt and -40gpt at 100% ). Currency=624, HBR=390 so it is 624 for 640 .

I’m not sure if this is worth it. On the one hand that is a 1:1 beaker trade, on the other, Currency is probably more useful that HBR even if we do want ‘phants. Since WK has positive gpt (in trade screen) perhaps we should wait a bit to see if the gold we can trade for will go up a bit? We won't be able to start building elephants just yet as Ur still needs defense and we need catapults anyways, so its not like we will be wasting hammers waiting for HBR.
Also, WK would then be able to trade Currency to others, but we don’t have anyone else willing to trade with us for Currency...

Techs:
Looking at the tech trade screen makes me think that my earlier suggestion of Aesthetics for trading possibilities will be a less than stellar approach. Maybe Metal Casting will be a better tech to go for, but I think my earlier comments about its utility still stand. The other option I see is code of laws to move towards bureaucracy, but that is a long time from now.
The main advantage of going for MC is that then we can use the eps points to steal Calender, and that will let us put a plantation on the banana and sugar (when we get it).

edit:Ur
Will be interesting, we are fully fortified, both units have combat I and +25% vs mêlée. Ur has +20%, so, if I understand the subtraction due to city attack, we will end up with +35% over the Galic warrior. Time to start praying to the RNG I think...

 

[The Simple Mind]

I've got it and will look at, comment & ask stupid questions tonight. A couple of questions the now:

Did it turn out that Pyongyang was cheaper to steal from than Chenju and the other one because of trade routes?

I've always wondered whether the EP distance cost is calculated from our borders or from our capital.

WK is willing to give us HBR and 100 for Currency. The gold would fund excatly 2.5 rounds of 100% research, or 250 beakers (we are currently at 100bpt and -40gpt at 100% ). Currency=624, HBR=390 so it is 624 for 640 .

I&#8217;m not sure if this is worth it. On the one hand that is a 1:1 beaker trade, on the other, Currency is probably more useful that HBR even if we do want &#8216;phants. Since WK has positive gpt (in trade screen) perhaps we should wait a bit to see if the gold we can trade for will go up a bit? We won't be able to start building elephants just yet as Ur still needs defense and we need catapults anyways, so its not like we will be wasting hammers waiting for HBR.
Also, WK would then be able to trade Currency to others, but we don&#8217;t have anyone else willing to trade with us for Currency...

Is anyone likely to discover currency any time soon? If so, its trade value would be devalued. Also, due to the nature of this game I don't think we'll be able to make many trades so this seems an acceptable deal.

 

[kossin]

Agree with resource trades.

Spy: I did say to move him to Cheju, if you look in the Esp Advisor, you'll see it is a bit cheaper (dist. from Capital). For that matter, Hyangsan is even cheaper and WK is roading towards it. Target: MC although we'll need more EP for that. (It'd be nice to steal Colossus from WK... don't want him getting 4 coast...)

Trades: PH to SB for his gold
Currency: I think it might be good to WK. He'll get additional Trade routes so maybe we'll gain some commerce from it. Also, I find WE make excellent defenders! Best defense is a good offense

Uruk: don't whip. Trade for wine and swap in Colosseum+temple if we're going to go unhappy

Eridu: I'd like a lighthouse to grow here... we can switch the mines to coast and put the new citizens on mines to get more commerce

Kish: either cottage a few tiles or let it grow via Ocean then switch to scientists one grown enough

Lagash: stop improving it, it can't grow before CS. Send the worker elsewhere or start chopping

Ur: start working the cottage rather than the mine. Let it grow let it grow, let it grow... move one of the choking archers here and the spear that's close by. Swap to an archer and finish the chop, it will appear this turn. No need to pray Add another farm for growing

Techs: CoL>CS... this is more important than anything else right now I believe although an argument can be made for Literature to build HE

Happiness: Colosseums are very cheap and provide +1happy, why not build them when in need?

Goal for the set: build catapults and prepare to take Ulundi. We should be ready next round for that I think.
Also use the vulture by Elizabeth to uncover the fog in north sea so we can trade resources with her.

1. kossin - On deck
2. Stochastic
3. mjg5591
4. cripp7
5. Meerk - Just played
6. The Simple Mind - UP!

 

[Meerk]

Did it turn out that Pyongyang was cheaper to steal from than Chenju and the other one because of trade routes?

Spy: I did say to move him to Cheju, if you look in the Esp Advisor, you'll see it is a bit cheaper (dist. from Capital). For that matter, Hyangsan is even cheaper and WK is roading towards it. Target: MC although we'll need more EP for that. (It'd be nice to steal Colossus from WK... don't want him getting 4 coast...)

Oh damn. Those are clearly better as a theft location.

On the bright side(such as it is), having a spy in Pyongyang did give us a bit more intel about incoming Saladin units. Still, it would be better to have the cheaper steal. How much does it save to steal from Hyangsan? If it is <50 EP, should we leave the spy in PY (to save the turns)? Clearly any new spies should go to Hyangsan.

re: trade
I also think it is sensible to make the currency<->HBR+ trade Stochastic described.

Uruk: don't whip. Trade for wine and swap in Colosseum+temple if we're going to go unhappy

Eridu: I'd like a lighthouse to grow here... we can switch the mines to coast and put the new citizens on mines to get more commerce

Goal for the set: build catapults and prepare to take Ulundi. We should be ready next round for that I think.

It seems to me that since this is our next goal, Uruk/Eridu should be pumping catapults, since they are our GG cities. I presume the lighthouse comes after our catapult stack, right?

I absolutely agree about the trade for wine, and that removes any urgency to whip.

Kish: either cottage a few tiles or let it grow via Ocean then switch to scientists one grown enough

I had sent a worker over that way to get the

Lagash: stop improving it, it can't grow before CS. Send the worker elsewhere or start chopping

Yea, that cottage was probably a mistake -- I should have just sent the worker to Kish. I had envisioned working the cottage for Lagash to grow, but in retrospect does not make sense.

 

[Stochastic]

On the bright side(such as it is), having a spy in Pyongyang did give us a bit more intel about incoming Saladin units. Still, it would be better to have the cheaper steal. How much does it save to steal from Hyangsan? If it is <50 EP, should we leave the spy in PY (to save the turns)? Clearly any new spies should go to Hyangsan.

True. Maybe we should keep sending the spy West to investigate Saladin's territory? If you look closely you can just see his border to the west, it looks like WK is quite hemmed in (which makes Currency a more attractive trade for us). We'd have to build a replacement to steal techs.

It seems to me that since this is our next goal, Uruk/Eridu should be pumping catapults, since they are our GG cities. I presume the lighthouse comes after our catapult stack, right?

Goal for the set: build catapults and prepare to take Ulundi. We should be ready next round for that I think.

I totally agree with this, I really want to get rid of Shaka to consolidate borders, I think infrastructure should be done after that. The only thing I'd change would be to have one of the two building (Uruk has higher base production) war elephants so that we can get lvl2 WEs right out of the gate as well. Then Kish can build a few more catapults to take up the slack.

It'd be nice to steal Colossus from WK

Wow, I hadn't even thought of going for wonders in an all war game. But its true that on this map it would be nice. Is there any point on sending our spy to check for (and sabotage) a forge in either/ both of Pyongyang/Seoul?

Finally, is there a worker near by that could mine the forest by Uruk? We can finally work that tile, and the lumber could go to a happy building. Or should we save that chop for the Colossus? (Forge+Copper=lots of hammers.)

 

[The Simple Mind]

IHT – 660AD

As everyone agreed, had a wee chat with WK and accepted this deal:

Complete the pigs for wine & clams for 3 gold deals with WK.

Sell PH to SB for 50 gold.

Change research from MC to CoL (4turns).

Uruk – slot in colosseum at front of queue
Eridu, Kish & Lagash – no change
Ur – slot in archer & swap mine to cottage

Move choking archer towards Ur

Turn 144 – 680AD

Ur – Archer -> Granary

Boud’s GW attacks former choking archer and wins. Ur’s vulture successfully attacks the GW at 88% odds.

Workers start building cottages in Kish.

Sal’s units move from Pyongyang to Seoul.

Turn 145 – 700AD

Lagash – Barrack -> Monastery.

Turn 146 – 720AD

Shaka has 3 archers heading towards Ur. Now what’s he going to do? Attack or pillage?

Spy in Kish reaches 50%. Unfortunately, we don’t have enough EPs to steal anything.

Sal’s stack are no longer visible.

Turn 147 – 720AD

We discover:

and we found:

in Kish. Select CS which is 9 turns at 100% losing 41 gold / turn. Slider at 0% +26gold / turn. Chat to our “friends” SB & WK (Liz only has 10 gold) and only SB is forthcoming:

Drop slider to 0% for a couple of turns.

Eridu – catapult -> catapult

Kish’s water supply is poisoned. Checking the EP screen it looks like WK was the guilty party. The steal tech cost in Pyongyang has went from 990 to 283. Our spy can only steal poly so let him stay where he is.

Turn 148 – 760AD

Liz requests:

The only deal we have with is open borders, no trade routes. So I agree, hope this wasn’t a bad move.

Kish’s cow pasture has been destroyed. Send workers to repair.

Turn 149 – 780AD

WK builds pyramids
Shaka sends an archer onto Ur’s mine and one NW of the bananas
Sal has 3 Has + 2chariots in Pyongyang + another HA roaming in WK’s territory.

Turn 150 – 800AD

Shaka’s archer NW of bananas attacks our spearman and loses.
Barb galley attacks our galley and loses.
Vulture loses to a Zulu archer at 87%. Spearman kills the wounded archer.

Turn 151 – 820AD

Sal kills our vulture returning from Liz’s land with unknown HA in Shaka’s territory.

Herodotus doesn’t think much of us:

Sal’s stack has moved towards the barb city up north.
Boud has a GW between our choking vultures at Ulundi.

I haven’t used the Toaist missionary yet. Do we want to spread to one of our cities or to one of our friends to create unrest?

Our spy can now steal Calendar from WK. I have been holding out for MC but I think we should steal calendar as we have 1 health + 1 happy resource that we can improve immediately and I think it will be awhile before we are able to steal MC.

I’ll hand over here so that the group can decide.

TSM