KoS2 - There can be only war

[kossin]

I started with some trades we had discussed.

Spoiler :

Next turn I re-negotiate I resource deals.

Spoiler :

Sal's first stack was dealt with easily.

Spoiler :

I had to whip an emergency spear as BBB sneaked in a HA.

Spoiler :

Meanwhile, the RNG was messing with me. Again!

Spoiler :

One of our gold mines got sabotaged and Sal parked a Mace on it afterwards... I lost a worker in the process

Spoiler :

Sal's next stack wasn't so small!

Spoiler :

And then BBB thought it was a good time to send hers...

Spoiler :

I attacked it so they were hurt a bit...

Meanwhile, SB was doing a good job to free our Dye.

Spoiler :

The one loss in Sal's attack was a bogus consecutive hits by a Chariot against a WE.

Spoiler :

As WK started researching Paper, I did this trade with him:

Spoiler :

I did a quick Literature detour after that and HE is being built in Eridu.

We've got Sal mapped out now. His cities are close together but he'll be a tough nut to crack...

Spoiler :

New resource deal with SB.

Spoiler :

I suicide some units on BBB's growing stack...

Spoiler :

Turn 200 I stop...
We can research Liberalism and we should have no problem getting there first. The problem though is will we survive?

Defense in Kish

Spoiler :

vs. Sal's stack

Spoiler :

Defense in Ur... ugh.

Spoiler :

BBB's stack is just a few pictures above. 4 catas and 16 units... not good at all.

BBB brought in a second stack and merged them together. At first the second was going to Ulundi but it turned back...

We've got a second GG sitting in Eridu. I'd consider using him to make a super-defense unit against BBB. (Drill 4, CG 3 etc.)

Techs

Spoiler :

Getting our hands on Engineering would be nice to allow faster troops movement and to get some pikes against Sal.

Short-term: survive. Add some LBs to target cities (Kish and Ur) so we lose less units.

Mid-term: Lib->Nationalism. We might be able to get Taj or failure gold. Getting Globe Theater to draft non-stop would be nice in this game setting.
Uruk could be used for this but I prefer it as a GP farm (NE being built there). Maybe Ur?

Let's hope we can get to Rifles soon enough.

 

[kossin]

Roster:
1. kossin - Just played
2. The Simple Mind - UP!
3. Stochastic - On deck
4. mjg5591
5. Meerk

 

[Stochastic]

Wow, those stacks are starting to look a bit scary. Especially the speed at which the maces showed up. Silver-lining: At least Boudica didn't give her maces city raider III!

Will one super defender unit be worth the general? We'll only be able to give it 4 promos out of the gate (5xp +20xp), and if we're using a general I'd want to put leadership on so that it gets better faster and so that we get generals faster. That means we'd only get CG3 and Drill2 off the bat. (we could attach to a lvl 3 unit but that is painfully inefficient) It would suffer collateral the same as everyone else unless we go down the Drill line and then it won't be so good at defending. Maybe we should make a medic now? Or just get another city providing 5xp units out of the gate.

WK is currently willing to trade Engineering +junk for education. While I am loath to give it to him such a good tech for such a poor price, perhaps it is worth our survival? We could also build castles then. (The first time I would do that ever!) I guess the worst thing that would come from essentially gifting edu to WK would be making loosing liberalism much more likely.

Some creative options to ease our defense woes:
vs Boudica:
If we built a fort on the jungle hill east of Ur and filled it with units would Boudica be stupid enough to attack that instead of our city? It is right on the previous invasion paths and would give a bit more defense than the walled city. Obviously we can't do that now with the units sitting on our door step, but just a thought if we don't get a castle.

What if we took Isica? It is on a hill and currently relatively poorly defended. It would be a better place to hold the barbarians at bay than our current "flat plain surrounded by hills" defensive nightmare.

vs Saladin:
From the map Saladin has no iron and only one horse. If we can pillage the horse he will only be able to attack us with maces (bad enough I know...). I ran a test and the base cost to destroy a pasture is 75 eps. Now there will be a bunch from distance penalty, but we can settle in place to partially counter that. If we put Neribu on Spy duty with whips we might be able to keep Saladin from bothering us with Camels. We'd have to focus all eps on Saladin, but we aren't going to get anything from WK with our current level of spending anyways. +12eps/turn for say ~90 eps points/pillage = one pillage every 7.5 turns. The horse is 26 squares away from our capital so it will take 9 turns to get there with a spy and engineering. There is no reason why we couldn't keep that up forever with multiple spies to keep the horse's running wild.

Saladin's only copper is under Baghdad. If we can take that and keep the horses down (wishful thinking ) then he would effectively be neutralised until gunpowder. Fortunately WK has close cultural proximity, so if we can get up an attack force, that should be, in my mind, the first priority (it also has Colossus and astronomy is not coming any time soon if ever).

Cities:
Micro one coastal to the plains in Eridu to get HE in 2 turns instead of 3. It could mean life or death! (Only slightly melodramatic given the current situation...)

Maybe whip the LB in Kish to help save all the high xp units there?

Units:
We should sent the galley to pick up the chariot in Nirbu asap (I assume it is for medic?), and whip the chariot when one turn away.

 

[kossin]

Leadership can wait after the initial promotions (CG3+Drill4)... better he survive than he rake up exp faster at the start. Starting with CG1 and Drill1 so it would be CG3 and Drill 3, and 2 exp away from Drill4. Leadership can come later. The goal of the super GG is to kill catapults without taking damage, hence the many first strikes. Too bad our city isn't on a hill :S

We can live with WE against Camels for now, just keep packing them and adding Longbows rather than Vultures. Maces are also fine.

Sal can probably re-build the horse the same turn we pillage it but here's the fun fact: Camels are resourceless so it won't do anything at all!

Fort: could work but I wouldn't bet our life on it.

City micro: yea sounds fine. Whip the LB in Kish

The Chariot in Nirbu is for city garrison there. Build a 7xp one (a stable in Eridu) so that it gets Medic3+the movement promotion.

 

[Stochastic]

Sal can probably re-build the horse the same turn we pillage it but here's the fun fact: Camels are resourceless so it won't do anything at all!

That would throw a wrench in that plan, I totally forgot about that!

I see your point about the catapults, I hadn't thought about that. Maybe it is worth more consideration than I gave it.

 

[Meerk]

I like the super GG defender plan. Also, with so many incoming stacks, we are likely to get more GGs soon.

On the diplo front, is this the time to encourage one of our friends to attack? I am hoping that would reduce the force of subsequent attacks.

I totally agree that UR is a defensive nightmare. In retrospect we should maybe have put it on one of those hills.

 

[The Simple Mind]

Hi all, sorry I’m late playing my set. RL can be a pain the a*@! sometimes. So plans for my set are:

Main goal (some would say only goal)

Stay alive and try to not lose any cities. To help with this I'll need to make a super longbow (CG3+Drill3). Hopefully one of the LBs in Ur with CG3+Drill1 will survive the attack by Boud's stack.

Cities

Uruk – slow build NE (4) then LBs or maces
Eridu – swap coast to plains, get HE in 2 then build LBs + one chariot for medic 3
Kisk – whip LB then build some more
Ur – oh boy. Keep building LBs.
All other cities – slow build units, preferably LBs or maces.

Trades

Stochastic noted that:

WK is currently willing to trade Engineering +junk for education. While I am loath to give it to him such a good tech for such a poor price, perhaps it is worth our survival?

Do we accept to get pikemen & extra movement? Lib is about 20 turns away. What’s the likelihood that he’ll get there before us if don’t trade it to him?

 

[kossin]

I'd wait until we're a bit past the halfway point to Liberalism. Tech is slow right now and the free tech will be a good addition (especially if we can setup GT and draft muskets+).

On the plus side, odds are that we'll be able to get a better trade than Engineering+junk for Edu (lump of gold)

 

[The Simple Mind]

IBT

Eridu, swap coast for plains, HE now 2 turns instead of 3.
Move general Charles M towards Ur, though keep him far enough away from Boud’s wounded HA.

Hit enter & cross everything.

1410AD

Oh oh, this isn’t good.

Sal attacks Kish. We kill 3 of his but unfortunately he kills 6 of ours. It’s still ours but we only have 3 vultures (one wounded) and a spear here.

Sal has 4 maces (3 wounded) plus two wounded camel archers. Boud has a GW in the vicinity. I whip the lbw to bolster the defense.

Boud attacks Ur. We kill 3 catapults, a maceman and a HA. This isn’t enough to retain Ur as she kills the 11 units in the city and it’s now hers.

I didn’t notice there was a worker 2 west of Ulundi (not sure if it could have moved) and Boud’s wounded HA grabs it. Attack with our WE and succeed.

Livy doesn't think much of us, not that we care:

Wang offers this deal:

I deline.

1420AD

Sal attacks Kish again. We kill one maceman but lose 3 vultures.

We now only have 1 spearman (full health) and a CG3 lbw (at 4.9 out of 6 health). I three pop whip a lbw and hope it will hold out against Sal’s stack:

Boud moves her stack west of Ur. Not sure if intending to go for Ulundi or heading home to recover. Hopefully the latter.

Eridu completes the HE -> lbw (2) and will attach GG.

We get an event, I take the culture as getting the “free” great artist will cost us 165 gold.

1430AD

Oh bad man ye, Sal attacks Kish. We kill one mace but Sal kills all our units and captures the city.

Though, Sitting Bull then captures it from Sal. This is a problem as our always peace deal means we can’t grab it back.

More bad news, Boud’s stack moves towards Ulundi.

Our units in Ulundi:

Boud’s stack:

She also has a HA, chariot & pike ready to join this stack plus a GW on the way.

Overall, a very short disappointing set of turns. I’m not sure how we can get out of this and handover so the group can decide the best way forward.

 

[kossin]

Ugh, that's a really bad roll we got here.

I just loaded the last save and the end result was very different. I lost a lot of units but both stacks were wiped out =\

Anyway on how to proceed from here:

1. Close borders with SB. Saladin should eventually take Kish at which point we move in and take it back.

2. When Boudi gets in range (will she cross the river) and starts bombarding, promote catapults down the barrage line and mop up her stack.

3. We need to work on a stack to send at Ur right now to take it back before it's out of revolt and before she reinforces it. As soon as it's out of revolt, she'll start whipping Longbows out of it = a pain to kill.

4. Build units...

 

[Stochastic]

Ouch, especially the part about SB "helping out." I was hoping that his large stack coming would keep WK and Saladin distracted for a while, but I think Kossin is right about closing borders. We'll just have to try to open up again as soon as we retake Kish.

Looking at the combat log it looks like we lost a bunch of combats that we probably should have won. Of course once our units are hurt the odds don't really tell the whole story...

I'd suggest we could merge our defensive GG with the archer in Eridu, upgrading general lead units is free and right now we need every scrap of cash we can pull together.

Right now a few WEs will be able to retake Ur so long as no reinforcements come in, although I see a highly promoted pike coming in towards Ulundi which will make our WEs very obsolete. If that links up with BBB's current stack it will be very hard to take down with our current forces.

Maybe go for a whole bunch of LBs in Lagash, a few WEs in Uruk and Eridu and then maces/LBs.

We will probably need Maces+1-2 catapults to re take Kish when Saladin grabs it because of the large number of LBs that he is bringing up.

Also, we'll be getting a GP this round, if a merchant I assume we'll try to settle it in one of SBs cities for cash? If scientist, I assume settle in Uruk?

 

[Stochastic]

Just realised that I was on deck. The Simple Mind, did you want to finish your set or should I pick it up now?

If I don't pick it up by the end of Thursday I'm going to have to take a skip, the weekend will be awfully full for me. (I'm flying to New Zealand on Sunday )

 

[kossin]

"I’m not sure how we can get out of this and handover so the group can decide the best way forward."

I guess he means he's handing it over but I'm not sure. Let's give him until tomorrow for an answer otherwise the save's yours.

 

[Stochastic]

OK, sounds fair.

I've rethought the idea of closing borders with SB. I don't think that it will save Kish because WK will probably be able to take it before Saladin does anyways.
So I think keeping open borders will have 3 advantages
1) It will keep the pressure up on WK, slowing his tech rate and avoiding a runaway.
2) If it allows SB to keep Kish (I doubt it will, I still think WK will take it) then that effectively will eliminate Saladin as a threat for a while because he will attack SB instead of us
3) If we get a great merchant I think we will probably want to to the short term trade mission to help with our immediate research towards liberalism.

 

[kossin]

1) Fair enough. Although, if Saladin does capture it -> close borders.

 

[Stochastic]

OK, I've played to the end of TSM's set (turn 210), and the short summary is everything is still ok. I re took Ur and Ulundi is still under siege, but well fortified. Also we've started 100% research for Liberalism, showing up in 6 turns from the save and should have no worries getting it.

A more detailed report will follow with with pictures and words after I eat supper and go to fencing (and maybe some stretching, those were the most tense 7 turns of civ I've ever played )

Here is the save...

 

[Stochastic]

Ok! Here’s the detail, thanks for the patience!

Inherited turn 203

• I decide to move the archer in Eridu up a bit along with Charles Martell. Merge, promote to LB, but hold off on the promos for now.
• I decide to whip the lighthouse in Bad-Tiberia, a bit of a waste, but I want to crank LBs out of every city, and a baracks isn’t needed b/c of Protective.
• I move the spy back towards our land and reveal that saladin might still be able to take out Eridu if he moves fast. I’ll follow and decide on open/closed borders with SB depending on the outcome.
  
  Spoiler :

  

Turn 204

• BBB moves away from Ulundi, but that joins it up with the Combat III Formation pike, our WEs will have a hard time with that stack now...
  
  Spoiler :

  
• Saladin splits the stack I marked for taking back Kish, sending the wounded units forwards and the fresh units back!
• SB is still moving through our territory, the first stack could make it through next turn, the second, larger, stack needs one more turn. I decide to not close borders with SB, it really does not look like Saladin will take Kish back with a Camel Archer and 2 macemen, one of which is as 5/8 health.
• Uruk finishes National Epic, now getting a GP in 4 turns. Start on a Mace in 2.
• Eridu finishes LB, will be used as defense now the archer is gone. WE in 1 to try to take Ur back.
• Ulundi finishes LB LB in 1.
• I pay 95 gold to upgrade the archer in Ulundi.
• I also snipe a celtic HA close to Ulundi with a WE.

Turn 205

• IBT apparently SB is no longer wanting our ivory as much. I re negotiate, apparently he’s totally our of gpt and wants ivory and 10 gpt for his crab! Despite wanting the health, I have to cancel the deal outright.
  
  Spoiler :

  
• Also Saladin adopts Mercantalism
• Health is now a serious issue, all our core cities are unhealthy and Uruk and Eridu are starving.. I might have to whip some to not loose the population needlessly
• In Eridu I queue up a mace after the WE
• Lagash gets a LB after finishing its WE, it will be whipped
• Niribu finishes its Chariot, moves to a galley, library in 9, it has decent commerce and a bit of surplus food that could run specialists.
• Ulundi finishes LB, I queue another LB in 2 turns, then Boudica will be laying siege so I think I’ll whip out a wall at that point. I figure whipping a wall last minute is better than a unit b/c the unit won’t get a chance for fortification or promos while the wall will hold BBB off for another turn's worth of bombardment (hopefully).
  
  Spoiler :

  As you can see Boudica made a typical computer move by moving the spear away.

  
• I’m not going to be able to get a force to take Ur back before it comes out of rebellion, Uruk and Eridu are just too far away for the units to get there quickly enough.

Turn 206

• Uruk finishes the Mace, I queue a University, the plan is to whip when we get the GP (2 turns). Uruk will starve to size 15 in 7 turns anyway.
• BBB is now on our doorstep at Ulundi, so time for some catapult suicide! First strike cat first... (6% odds) It dies. Then the unpromoted one to Barrage II (31%)... It dies too. Finally the city raider gets barrage I (47% odds) Retreates! Yay! Then the WEs roll out and kill 3 city raider II maces! Woo!
• Whip the LB inLagash, it will be sent to Ulundi to help out against future stacks.

Turn 207

• Our spies show that WK has started research into education. I call the trade in. Edu for Engineering +200 gold +Compass+Map. I could have gotten Monotheism instead of Compass, but that would be stupid. He switched to.... Economics! So liberalism is still safe!
• WE attack on BBB again, I kill 2 cats and a Xbow with three eles (one of them the one from Lagash) The fourth is heavily wounded but got to 10xp last turn, I promoted to formation and then attacked at 80% odds sadly it dies. That was probably the wrong call, but I wanted to do damage before the pike shows up next turn and the unit I was attacking was wounded as well.
  Here's what's left and what's next:
  
  Spoiler :

  
• Because of that we will have enough gold to 100% liberalism so I 2 pop whip the library in Niribu

Turn 208

• Thanks to the trade with WK we now have enough gold to 100% liberalism. So I do that... Liberalism in 8 at -85gpt.
• I 3 pop whip a castle in Ulundi, I want to save us some collateral from the trebs coming up.
• Also, we got a great Merchant. I’m moving it up with the hope of setting up a trade mission with SB for more deficit research.
• Timed a chop with Bad-Tibria to finish an LB this turn, I load it onto the Galley with the Mace.

Turn 209

• I retake UR!!
• BBB managed to whip in 2 archers, but I managed to kill the two HAs with the WE, one archer with an amphibious assault with a mace, then I lost a mace to the last archer at 96%odds!
  
  Spoiler :

  

  
  Keep in mind that this archer had only city guard I! . Of course the Mace had no promos, I thought I'd save them.
  
  So I fully promoed Charles Martel and attacked at 99.9%,... and won! Phew! Queued an archer and sent in the archer from Bad-Tibria as well.
• Also, Saladin looks like he might retake Kish next turn.
  
  Spoiler :

  
• Uruk finishes the Uni, that knocks a turn off of Liberalism (now in 6) I decide to queue a harbour in 2, it will be very useful for health.

Turn 210
Turns out Saladin did retake Kish, SB doesn’t have any more stacks incoming right now, but we should consider closing now, the only thing to hold back on is our GM.
Here is the situation around Kish as of now:

Spoiler :

I’ve read that GMs can walk through closed borders, has anyone actually done this?
The other issue is WK went into Mercantilism, so we don’t have any trade routes with him right now. For some reason we also have no routes with SB right now, but maybe that will get fixed next turn?

Notes:
General

• We should probably try to get a settler in the northern city site eventually, at the very least it will be a whip/draft candidate for LBs.
• Production of LBs doesn’t really need a barracks because we are protective
• If we do retake Kish we should probably position Charles Martel between our three border cities so that it can move to either one in one turn depending on where the fighting is thickest.
• Finally if it can be squeezed in we still need a medic, I've been working on the immediate needs of LBs, lots of LBs and grabbing Ur back.

To take back Kish:

• Saladin is holding Kish with maces with shock and C I. The logical suggestion is to build a bunch of crossbows to deal with them, but LBs will probably be coming a backup soon too, so maces will be needed to crack those if we don't grab it asap.
• The WEs in Ulundi can probably be used to help take Kish as BBB’s super pike makes them pointless for counter attack now.
• I’ve been going nuts with LB production, which shows in our net positive city count, we are probably OK now as long as Ulundi, Ur and Bad-Tiberia keep cranking them out for a bit more. So I’d suggest our other cities focus on units for Kish. Maybe one or two trebs or cats for collateral (remember the cultural defense~=0 for a while) and then 4-5 Xbows. When you kick in the WEs that should be able to do it.

Ur/Ulundi
Probably need a few more Lbs to guarantee the defense, remember they can also be siphoned off later to help keep Kish so we can never have enough Robin Hood wannabes.
Here is the Current situation in those cities:

Spoiler :

In Ur:

And in Ulundi:

The archers pretty much all have City Guard II and Drill I

Nirabi
Is building a galley to transfer troops to the mainland as the other one I’ve marked out for shuttling troops from Bad-Tibria and Uruk (if they are going to Ur it is faster by sea by a turn). After that I’d go for some relatively cheep stuff like LBs or Cats.

Eridu
Is building a pike (has been microed for 1 turn) with the idea of helping to hold Kish from smelly grumpy Camels. After than, see the notes about taking Kish for what I’d suggest building.

Uruk
Going for Harbor for health purposes (and trade can’t hurt either) After that see the notes about Kish.

Techs

• I think we will be able to trade for gunpowder and guilds (though SB is being a tight fisted git), so probably go for printing press next.
• Also what with capturing Ur and WK going all mercantile, our finance is in a bit of trouble again, but I don’t think we can do anything about it short of getting some trades with SB.
• Here is the current situation:

Spoiler :

I can't believe that SB won't trade with us! Everyone has guilds but he "doesn't want to start trading it away right now"

The GM
I think the best place to park the GM will be SB’s capital, but London might be good too. I found this thread that helps explain GM mechanics. Basically we want a large city with harbours that is far away from Uruk.


The save is in This post.

 

[The Simple Mind]

Well done on saving the situation . No doubt if it had been me the RNG would have given Ulundi and any other city attacked to the ai .

Just to let you know that quite a few of the images aren’t showing.

 

[kossin]

Very well done!

Yea... only 3 images are showing, the rest are moved/deleted.

I'd probably move Charles Martel to Ulundi as that's where BBB seems to be concentrating her attacks for now.

Be careful with the great merchant. Boudica can move 6 tiles with Horse Archers and see 6 tiles in any direction wherever she has one of them (yes, the AI sees through the fog). Similarly, there's a worker within range of Sal's camels near Kish.

While Cahokia is the best location to get the trade mission, maybe we should settle for a few less gold less and take him to York next turn?
Trick: hold shift while doing this: click go to, select city, then put the mouse over the trade mission.

SB is doing a good distraction job on WK and Sal... let's keep those borders open some more!

We'll want a few pikes for the east front as well. Boudi now has Guilds.

After Liberalism (I'm assuming -> Nationalism for now), take a quick detour to Drama (for Globe Theater/Draft) before heading towards Rifles.

Bananas<->Corn with SB will gain us 1 health everywhere.

Let's keep churning out units and hope for the best!

Roster

1. kossin
2. The Simple Mind
3. Stochastic - Just played
4. mjg5591 - UP/Skip?
5. Meerk - On deck/UP

Haven't gotten any news from mjg since his las post. Let's give him 24 hours for a notice otherwise Meerk is UP.

 

[Stochastic]

Thanks for the heads up on the pictures, I thought they worked last night, but they should be fine now.

Regarding researching drama, maybe it would be better to put a few turns of research into guilds and then trade liberalism for drama+guilds? Then we could trade nationalism for banking+gunpowder (partially researched). I know WK won't trade for drama now, but it is only a matter of time before the monopoly is broken.

I like the tip about holding shift down for the GM, but I don't seem to be able to make it work. Right now the GM doesn't have the trade mission option open, do I have to wait to be on a city before doing it?
I think we should go for the most gold possible, the big risk is by York, if the GM get's past there then it should be home free.

Good point about the pikes, maybe whip up one or two in Ulundi?

Final point, I forgot to mention that Uruk is running no specialists right now b/c I wanted to grow back after the Uni whip. They should be re hired when we get back to size 15.