Labor Unions - Influential, but not in the Game?

[Antilogic]

Well, as the title suggests, labor unions have had a massive influence on the Industrial era, but I really don't seem them implemented in the game whatsoever. The closest thing to Labor Unions in the game is communism, and despite having several communist leaders, labor unions were significantly different from communist parties.

Essentially, I want to open up a thread to brainstorm about how these could be represented in the game. It has to be limited to the Industrial and Modern eras, but besides that, let's start posting ideas!

So, here's one to get the ball rolling: all factories automatically generate 2 unhappiness, which is corrected by the new 'Labor Unions' technology that requires 'Communism' and 'Industrialism'.

Alternately, we could lump them in with 'Emancipation' (after all, the Russian czars of the early 20th century considered them legal, and the Russians were running the serfdom civic), and have the unhappiness penalty of factories be removed by the Emancipation civic.


EDIT: Sorry everyone, I thought I was posting in the Ideas and Suggestions forum. Could a moderator move this?

 

[Vael]

Until Civ 4 religion wasn't in Civ. Given the series' history, it's not a huge surprise labor unions are missing. There's only so much you can fit into a game.

 

[ShannonCT]

I dont know about you, but I use child labor in my factories. If they complain, I just give them candy.

Seriously though. Factories already cause unhealthiness. Unhappiness on top of that would be too much.

 

[Antilogic]

I'm just throwing out ideas here...

Civics is another way to do it, but I don't know how to reconcile an independent 'Labor Unions' civic option with Emancipation.

 

[the_elf]

Perhaps there might be a way to incorporate it as random chance in cities that become a certain size in a particular era.

For example, if you're running Emancipation, one of the risks is that you have a x% each turn of a labor union assembling in your size 14 or greater cities. Once the form, they would have the chance of making demands. "We want you to get wine for our people!" "Pay us more!" Etc., etc. That way, you kind of have to deal with their demands, or risk facing a penalty in production (-x% hammers).

 

[lbhhh]

Labor union was a tech in civ1(allowed mech inf, 6/6/3) and possibly in civ2.
A possible way to implement could be with a tech, which would eliminate the unhealthyness factor from factories. Not that I feel the game needs it though.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

Until Civ 4 religion wasn't in Civ. Given the series' history, it's not a huge surprise labor unions are missing. There's only so much you can fit into a game.

They always had religious technologies to discover.

Labour Union was in earlier Civs but again just as a tech name.

 

[Crighton]

Please don't forget Fascism's relation to labor unions as well.

 

[bovinespy]

How about having a tech branch off of Communism - call it Labor Unions or Organized Labor or some such thing. It would enable the construction of a building called a Union Hall. In combination with this, I would tweak Forges so that they added 1 , and Factories so that they added 3 . Now, I know what you're thinking here - ol' Bovine has had his cheese slide right off the cracker! But, stay with me on this...

Now, one thing I've tended to notice is that, happiness has, over the long-haul, very little effect as a cap on city growth, due to the ease of gaining luxuries, constructing certain buildings, certain civcs choices, etc. By adding some happiness penalties to Forges/Factories, you actually would have a strategic decision to make, especially when Industrialism rolls around. With a Factory, you would have to make a trade-off between a lot of , or a few extra . This is where the Union Hall would come in. It could only be built in cities that had Forges/Factories, and would provide maybe +2 , but at the cost of a % reduction in /per turn, say 15%. This would represent a diversion of production to more consumables for laborers.

I think this would allow for some interesting strategy/role-playing options come the Industrial Age. You could be a benevolent ruler with a large, happy, though somewhat inefficient work force, or you could be a bloodthirsty capitalist tyrant, cruelly exacting every last drop of sweat from Joe Lunchpail, while keeping armed guards around the mansion to keep back the revolutionary hordes.

Perhaps cities without Union Halls would also experience War Weariness more severely, which would have the side benefit of making the near universally reviled civic Police State a little more palatable in certain game situations...

Whaddaya think?

(By the way, any numbers or % are merely meant as a starting point for discussion, not as written in stone.)

 

[Underdawg]

How about having a tech branch off of Communism - call it Labor Unions or Organized Labor or some such thing. It would enable the construction of a building called a Union Hall. In combination with this, I would tweak Forges so that they added 1 , and Factories so that they added 3 . Now, I know what you're thinking here - ol' Bovine has had his cheese slide right off the cracker! But, stay with me on this...

Now, one thing I've tended to notice is that, happiness has, over the long-haul, very little effect as a cap on city growth, due to the ease of gaining luxuries, constructing certain buildings, certain civcs choices, etc. By adding some happiness penalties to Forges/Factories, you actually would have a strategic decision to make, especially when Industrialism rolls around. With a Factory, you would have to make a trade-off between a lot of , or a few extra . This is where the Union Hall would come in. It could only be built in cities that had Forges/Factories, and would provide maybe +2 , but at the cost of a % reduction in /per turn, say 15%. This would represent a diversion of production to more consumables for laborers.

I think this would allow for some interesting strategy/role-playing options come the Industrial Age. You could be a benevolent ruler with a large, happy, though somewhat inefficient work force, or you could be a bloodthirsty capitalist tyrant, cruelly exacting every last drop of sweat from Joe Lunchpail, while keeping armed guards around the mansion to keep back the revolutionary hordes.

Perhaps cities without Union Halls would also experience War Weariness more severely, which would have the side benefit of making the near universally reviled civic Police State a little more palatable in certain game situations...

Whaddaya think?

(By the way, any numbers or % are merely meant as a starting point for discussion, not as written in stone.)

Happiness as an easy cap to happiness to remove? Are you kidding me?

But really, I can only speak for Monarch/Emperor, but I am coming from behind 3/4 the game, unless I play normal and lower sized maps (in which it is smooth sailing after you rush one or two civs and effectively wipe them out as well as take their land, but especially on Huge maps (where even wiping out two neighbour civs could still make you end up as just 'middle of the pack', I am always trailing 3/4ths the game. Though that could be an effect of the fact that I always play with 14AI/18AI civs in large and huge maps respectively.

Happiness is a big issue for me. But for this case, happiness caused by factories, by that time I have so much happiness in my cities the limiting factor is health.

Just wanted to add a little conjecture on the issue of Happiness in Civilization.

 

[bovinespy]

Happiness is a big issue for me. But for this case, happiness caused by factories, by that time I have so much happiness in my cities the limiting factor is health.

Well, that's kind of my point...

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well, in my Civics Mod (of which phase 3a is already out-hint hint ) I removed emancipation entirely (it seemed silly to me because, ultimately, isn't emancipation simply the absence of slavery?) and replaced it with Professional Labour, Conscripted Labour and Organised Labour respectively. So professional labour (Guilds) represents the standing armies and skilled labour employed in the Late Middle ages on. Conscripted labour (Nationalism) represents that sidetrack into labour forced upon criminals and vagrants in both civilian and military fields. Organised labour will obviously represent the formation of trade unions, and will come with Industrialism or Steam Power.
Though I don't recall their exact effects in Phase 2, my planned effects for phase 3 are (subject to change): Professional- +2 hammers from villages and workshops; +25% military production time. Conscripted- +2 hammers from barracks and jails; can conscript up to 3 units per turn. Organised Labour- +2 hammers from Power Stations and Factories; +1 happiness from same.

What do you think, Antilogic, does this come close to what you were looking for?

EDIT: Oh and, just for the record, I am trying to make happiness more of an issue by having more civics generate unhappiness as a flip-side to a bonus they might create. A case in point is Conscripted labour, which will produce unhappiness from barracks and jails.

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[lbhhh]

Sounds like an interesting mod.