Leaders that shouldn't be there!

[Dennis_Moore]

I agree, the guy who was talking about Julius Caesar is either a troll or too stupid to live. I would group him with such generals as Alexander, Genghis Khan when talking about military prowess. He created the Roman EMPIRE. Until him Rome was a regional power with some influence. Under him and his nephew Augustus Rome CONTROLLED the known world.

Yes, I would also group Julius Caesar with GENERALS, like Genghis and Alexander, and that's how he should be represented in the game - as a great general. That is after all how he distinguished himself in his lifetime, as a successful military commander. The rest of is fame is mostly posthumous glorification. IMO his greatest achievement as a sovereign leader was his choice of heir (who was the actual first emperor).

(Since I'm the only one in this thread mentioning Caesar in a negative light, I suppose that rather unprovoked flame was directed at me. As I have already implied, the only one being to stupid to live was Caesar himself for not reading the fine print that came with his appointment as dictator for life).

 

[GuitarHero]

Actually, Dennis, I hate Ceasar too. You're not alone.

 

[DrewTate]

How can you hate Caesar? Both the Caesars in the game were great leaders and are as deserving as anybody to be in the game.

And I moved on to rap music.

 

[Antilogic]

Well, what's kind of funny if you ask me is that if the people had really known how close to an atheist he was, I think they might not have elected him. The country itself has never been very philosophical, but if you asked me for leader traits for Lincoln, philosophical and charismatic is what I would say.

The founding fathers were remarkably non-conventional for their time as well. George Washington was a Free Mason and a Deist, Jefferson a Deist, and many others. And when you have Puritanical roots, taking a step back to say "maybe God doesn't influence every event in our lives, and just set up the world like a clock" is quite a leap of agnosticism.


Has anyone mentioned that Gilgamesh is the king in the epic, and Enkidu is the warrior? I didn't read through the 40+ posts in the middle...

 

[DrewTate]

Yeah somebody did but then another poster said he thinks he read something about people discovering some things that say he may have been a real person indeed, but nothing is certain, obviously.

This is a good topic. I don't wanna see it slip to page 2 ya hear me

 

[GuitarHero]

Jefferson's not a Freemason? Wow, Antilogic always has something new to us.

 

[Handel]

I think the including of great leaders was based simply on recognition of the names. Not the best, but the most known leaders.
If we talk about the "best" then including duch leaders as Stalin and Mao is a pure insult to the common sense. Those people killed so much from their own people as no World War could do it.

 

[qwertt]

The only leader I'm unsure about is Sulayman, I don't know too much about Moor history to pick a better leader.

maybe this map will help
the borders of ottomans in his death:

 

[aronnax]

Okay that map is a little exaarrated. Its more just trimmed around the North African shore except for Tunisia and Egypt and they never penetrated so north actually

 

[Antilogic]

Jefferson's not a Freemason? Wow, Antilogic always has something new to us.

I'm actually not sure. I know Washington was, but I thought Franklin was as well and Jefferson was rumored to be one. I didn't want to post something that was flagrantly wrong, so instead of guessing I just put down he was a Deist, which I know to be accurate.

 

[Kettu]

Nazism is banned in several countries. And neither Stalin nor Mao did start a world war. They were, externally, rather peaceful (if you disregard the cold war and such).

Well, this rather peaceful Stalin attaked Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland and Poland before coming part of the "good guys" after Hitler attaked Soviet Union. AND he managed to kill 20 million people, beating thus Hitler by millions.

 

[Kettu]

Edit: To the guy who said Julius Caesar should not be in the game? Didn't Julius Caesar establish the Roman Empire...? Pretty much. The first emperor of Rome, the greatest empire ever.

Gaius Julius Caesar was never emperor, Augustus is considered to be the first one. What Julius Caesar did, was to in reality end the Roman Republic (though the Senate continued to work for centuries after this) and proclamed himself as dictator for life.

Great guy yes, but maybe Trajan should still be in the game, if not instead of Caesar, but certainly at least with Caesar.

 

[Menzies]

Ahhh, an entire topic that can be summed up with:
Sitting Bull!!!

 

[aronnax]

Ahhh, an entire topic that can be summed up with:
Sitting Bull!!!

You win...........

 

[GuitarHero]

Sitting Bull was a good leader! But he wasn't as good as Crazy Horse.

 

[Antilogic]

Sitting Bull was a good leader of a particular American Indian tribe, not all Native Americans in general. He is an utter mismatch for a poorly-thought-out Civ.

 

[GuitarHero]

Yeah. Firaxis was a bit in a rush when they added the Natives.

 

[QBurrito]

Gaius Julius Caesar was never emperor, Augustus is considered to be the first one. What Julius Caesar did, was to in reality end the Roman Republic (though the Senate continued to work for centuries after this) and proclamed himself as dictator for life.

Great guy yes, but maybe Trajan should still be in the game, if not instead of Caesar, but certainly at least with Caesar.

Great guy? Great guy?!

He deliberately dissolved the republic, and effectively crowned himself king of Rome. He threw back the political system of one of the most forward-thinking empires of the age about 500 years! I can appreciate his work trying to avoid a civil war with Pompey, but naming himself "Dictator For Life" just ended up causing another. Good general, crap human being.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Okay that map is a little exaarrated. Its more just trimmed around the North African shore except for Tunisia and Egypt and they never penetrated so north actually

True. Since poland's borders would've extended to the black sea, there shouldn't be that much land under ottoman rule between Poland and the Black sea. and what's with that ottoman land in russia?

 

[Peng Qi]

Great guy? Great guy?!

He deliberately dissolved the republic, and effectively crowned himself king of Rome. He threw back the political system of one of the most forward-thinking empires of the age about 500 years! I can appreciate his work trying to avoid a civil war with Pompey, but naming himself "Dictator For Life" just ended up causing another. Good general, crap human being.

Somebody baselessly hates authoritarianism.