ArmOrAttAk
Warlord
You can only have one> choose
Leonardos, or Michaelangelos
- Thread starter ArmOrAttAk
- Start date
Rowan
Warlord
Leonardo's forever[dance]
[dance]Ace
Emperor
Mike's Chapel is the best. gotta have the happiness and it lasts the whole game. Leo's is a very close second, but if I can only have one, its gotta be Mike's.
sethos
no allies
Leo's will become obsolete, Mike's never. Mike's chapel saves you a huge amount of gold. It's harder to live without Mike's than without Leo's.
But perhaps it's my personal opinion that I like more the WoW which never become obsolote (Pyramids, SoL, Bachs and so on).
But perhaps it's my personal opinion that I like more the WoW which never become obsolote (Pyramids, SoL, Bachs and so on).
Old n Slow
Emperor
I almost always end up with Invention before Monotheism (which implies a vote for Leo's). Similarly, I see pressure in my SP games for Leo's before Mike's (again another vote for Leo's).
I hear a voice whispering of the virtues of a Power Democracy (a vote for Mike's)...
But if I have to make a choice, then I'm in a tough situation -- & tough situations have aspects of risk that call for increased safety -- the vote goes to Leo's.
I hear a voice whispering of the virtues of a Power Democracy (a vote for Mike's)...
But if I have to make a choice, then I'm in a tough situation -- & tough situations have aspects of risk that call for increased safety -- the vote goes to Leo's.
Marlos
Christian Soldier
LW, but not by much. If you can't upgrade your units immediately, you will spend the entire game trying to play catch up! I hate 
having to construct entirely new units because my own research has made them obsolete! It's illogical! The path of technological breakthroughs in the real world is not as disjointed as it is in the game.
Personally, I like LW because (as a non-Civ playing friend of mine put it) it's like the military passed out a memo and everyone understands and uses the new technology!
MC is fantastic for keeping everyone happy, though, especially in towns right after they are built.
Good poll, BTW, these are the two best wonders in the game.
having to construct entirely new units because my own research has made them obsolete! It's illogical! The path of technological breakthroughs in the real world is not as disjointed as it is in the game.Personally, I like LW because (as a non-Civ playing friend of mine put it) it's like the military passed out a memo and everyone understands and uses the new technology!
MC is fantastic for keeping everyone happy, though, especially in towns right after they are built.
Good poll, BTW, these are the two best wonders in the game.
Kev
Hired Goon
It really all depends on the level being played. Emperor and Deity, Mike's is probably more valuable. Below King, Mike's won't make as much of an impact and Leo's would be the more valuable. At King level, it could go either way.
Ming
Prince
I agree with Kev...
If it's a Deity game, MC is the better of the two.
If it's at any lower level, happiness just isn't a problem, and you can always build a cath or two in key cities if you really need to.
If it's a Deity game, MC is the better of the two.
If it's at any lower level, happiness just isn't a problem, and you can always build a cath or two in key cities if you really need to.
Below deity Leo's. For a deity duel I'd choose Leo's. Personally I like HG, and if you get Leo's you are first in line for SOL, and commie sorts out unhappiness for a bit.
I'll say Mikes with more players. Civ is so flexible, it always depends.........
I'll say Mikes with more players. Civ is so flexible, it always depends.........
willemvanoranje
Curitibano
I think that players that don't master Deity yet Leo's is more important. For people that can (easily) win at each level Mike's is more important. Besides that your goal matters: fast conquest or late conquest/space race with lots of points.
When you think about it, Leo doesn't really help you in the important time. The automobile times.
Mike's does.
If you get that wonder, and Adam's wonder... And go communism. You'll save a lot of money.
Communism is fun to play with, selling all your improvements that take away unhappiness is cool.
Mike's does.
If you get that wonder, and Adam's wonder... And go communism. You'll save a lot of money.
Communism is fun to play with, selling all your improvements that take away unhappiness is cool.
Andu Indorin
Retired Druid
As a part of the Colossus/Hanging Gardens/Mike's Chapel triadic foundation for early growth toward the Power Democracy, I've got to vote for Mike's in all cases.
Besides, if somebody else builds Leonardo's Workshop, you can always capture it prior to its expiration to upgrade all those barbs you've bribed.
(Of course, if I ever start playing MP, my opinions may change.)
Besides, if somebody else builds Leonardo's Workshop, you can always capture it prior to its expiration to upgrade all those barbs you've bribed.
(Of course, if I ever start playing MP, my opinions may change.)
atawa
Mastered by puppets
You dont need both, I'd rather hold those caravans for a couple of turns and build statue, a much more powerfull wonder then mike's and leo's
Fyrehawk
Chieftain
What makes the chapel so special? When Leanardo's Workshop is about the best thing since the great Library? 
You'll find out as you move up in difficulty level.3 contented citizens and 4 with Theology is quite useful.
Ohwell
Deity
I don't like Leo's because it takes away veteran status...
And I often don't build cathedrals because they take a while and the upkeep saved is often a lot of money.
And I often don't build cathedrals because they take a while and the upkeep saved is often a lot of money.
It's fun to see so many different opinions. Interesting that you mentioned the great library. In my opinion it can often be harmful to build this. If you are going to build a science city it is definitely harmful. With the (not so) great library you will pick up a handful of junker techs early on and it will take extremely long until you discover university and astronomy. After that you will pick up another handful of junkers and maybe two or three techs that you actually need. Now, those junkers are eventually needed later in the game but you can just trade for them with the ai and you will get them for free. In the meantime your research has slowed down thanks to the library.
How useful is Leonardo's? It will turn your warriors and phalanxes into riflemen and your horses to cavalry. You will then save 20-30 shields for each rifleman you want to build and 40 shields for every cavalry. Cavalry is good enough to beat the best defenders out there at the time it's available unless you are attacking a city with walls. Riflemen are not as strong and should, in my opinion, stay at home. So, you can build 10 horsemen and one Leo or 10 cavalry for the same amount of shields. Is an attack force of 10 cavalry enough? No, I'd say you need 20 cavalry and some diplomats to be successful. That's another 400 shields that Leo will save.
OK, what about Michelangelo? To save 400 shields you need 7 cities that require cathedrals. Also, small cities don't need temples. So, maybe if you have 5 bigger cities and 5-10 small size 1-3 cities, then you will save 400 shields with Mike's.
So, if I plan to go to war in the midgame, then I would prefer Leo if my empire is smaller than 10 or so cities, otherwise I would choose Mike.
Let's take another example. You plan to be peaceful and not fight any wars. Then you will need one rifleman for protection in every city and you also want one engineer for each city improving the land. Normally, you aleady have a settler which is about half an engineer. You can then save 20 shields with Leo's upgrade. If you have 2 settlers, then you will save 40 shields. As I said earlier, you will spare 30 shields when your militia is upgraded to rifleman.
OK, that's 50-70 shields for each city. Compare that to 120 shields that a cathedral costs. In the peaceful world Mike is clearly better.
So, my conclusion is that Mike is better in most cases.
How useful is Leonardo's? It will turn your warriors and phalanxes into riflemen and your horses to cavalry. You will then save 20-30 shields for each rifleman you want to build and 40 shields for every cavalry. Cavalry is good enough to beat the best defenders out there at the time it's available unless you are attacking a city with walls. Riflemen are not as strong and should, in my opinion, stay at home. So, you can build 10 horsemen and one Leo or 10 cavalry for the same amount of shields. Is an attack force of 10 cavalry enough? No, I'd say you need 20 cavalry and some diplomats to be successful. That's another 400 shields that Leo will save.
OK, what about Michelangelo? To save 400 shields you need 7 cities that require cathedrals. Also, small cities don't need temples. So, maybe if you have 5 bigger cities and 5-10 small size 1-3 cities, then you will save 400 shields with Mike's.
So, if I plan to go to war in the midgame, then I would prefer Leo if my empire is smaller than 10 or so cities, otherwise I would choose Mike.
Let's take another example. You plan to be peaceful and not fight any wars. Then you will need one rifleman for protection in every city and you also want one engineer for each city improving the land. Normally, you aleady have a settler which is about half an engineer. You can then save 20 shields with Leo's upgrade. If you have 2 settlers, then you will save 40 shields. As I said earlier, you will spare 30 shields when your militia is upgraded to rifleman.
OK, that's 50-70 shields for each city. Compare that to 120 shields that a cathedral costs. In the peaceful world Mike is clearly better.
So, my conclusion is that Mike is better in most cases.
