Leonardos, or Michaelangelos

[Ace]

Originally posted by cliff
[OK, what about Michelangelo? To save 400 shields you need 7 cities that require cathedrals. Also, small cities don't need temples. So, maybe if you have 5 bigger cities and 5-10 small size 1-3 cities, then you will save 400 shields with Mike's.
QUOTE]

The last game I started on diety level, yesterday, it was very apparent, as usual, that real soon, like the sixth or seventh city, starts with an angry citizen. Without temples, you will need loads of warriors to keep the peace, and a city building warriors is not building settlers and caravans. both of which are the lifeblood of the game. Besides, if you haven't got at least 35 or 40 cities, your not really trying....

Yes, you can skip temples, but they make the happiness problem much easier to handle til you build marketplaces and switch to Democracy.

:tank:

 

[cliff]

I sometimes play like that and build 30 or 40 cities as fast as I can. In that case I always build hanging gardens, not temples. I will also build Mike early.

Or, to use your words: cities that build temples are not building settlers and caravans. Now, the gardens cost 200 shields, as much as 5 temples. You also need one warrior in every city to make two guys happy as a temple does. If you have 7 cities, then you would spend 270 shields building the gardens and a warrior in every city. If you build 7 temples instead, that's 280 shields. If you have 40 cities as you suggested, then gardens + warrior cost 600 shields while 40 temples cost 1600 shields. Those 1000 extra shields can be better spent.

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

True, building HG before temples in all your cities is also a very good way to keep unhappiness under control very early on.

The only other thing is that the cities will most likely need HG, a warrior, and temples on Deity once you have quite a few cities and they get between size 5-6.

Another angle people seem to have skipped is the maintinance costs that are associated with the Cathedrals. So, not only are you saving all those shields (and turns of building), but the cash for each one every single turn.

 

[KingWilly]

Firstly, I try and get both.
With Leos Workshop I really like to have Sun Tzus Academy so that the effect of losing veteran status (with Leo's upgrade) is slightly diminshed. I love the fact that Leo upgrades the units, but hate that it takes way their veteran status.

I really think that it depends on the level and type of game you are playing. The higher the level, the greater importance of Mike's chapel to increase happiness.
Also, if you want to win by conquest, Leo's can help make victory quicker, while for a Space Victory, Mike's comes in really handy to keep your population content / happy, so you can spend your time worrying about science, revenue raising.

 

[cliff]

If I build 40 cities, then my strategy is to wipe out all or most other players before modernizing my civilization. It is good enough to have Mike, Bach, Gardens, all cities but your science city being size 6 and having no city improvements. If I decide to leave one pet civ and start modernizing I prefer to set up trade routes first and then build market places. No need for temples with my strategy!

 

[Mayhem]

Why not market places first then caravans? Wont the Revenue be greater?

But you also have the time it takes for the caravan to get to where ever.

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

Originally posted by Mayhem
Why not market places first then caravans? Wont the Revenue be greater?

Nope.

Marketplaces don't have any affect on the revenue you get from Caravans. It is based on the number of trade arrows the city has.

Once a caravan is delivered and it increases the number of trade arrows in the city the marketplace can then increase the amount of taxes the city generates, but not what the caravan itself pays on delivery nor how many extra trade arrows it generates for each city.

 

[Kev]

Duke makes an excellent point - to make sure you get the most of caravans, things like libraries, universities, and superhighways (along with the SSC wonders) will help bump up the arrows and thereby the payoff. Moving workers around in both cities to get the most arrows can also help - after delivering the caravan/freight just change them back to where they were.

If connected by roads or rail, that helps as well. Different continents will usually pay more as well delivering to foreign lands (though I like to trade with my own cities only). Freight is more valuable as well.

Also, if both cities have airports, it increases the payoff even further.

This is a great reason why trading in democracy and republics are preferred. More arrows and less of them going as waste.

That's way off topic - sorry. There are MANY, many threads that deal in the art of caravan/freight trading.

Back ON topic - I daresay that in Deity level, Mike's is indeed the top priority. The second one, however, is NOT Leo's in my estimation. That would fall to JS Bach's for the same reason that Mike's is #1: Happiness. The good news with this is that the AI puts a very LOW priority on Theology.

 

[Smash]

yes its nice.Once Mich's and JSB are onbaord,you're all set for a long time on deity.Sure is nice to get that settler>engineer upgrade though.And boats as well.Horses>knights>dragoons>cavalry is a fast track to conquest...I want them both

 

[ArmOrAttAk]

I voted for mikes. It's my most looked forward to wonder of the game.

 

[Ace]

Originally posted by Smash
yes its nice.Once Mich's and JSB are onbaord,you're all set for a long time on deity.Sure is nice to get that settler>engineer upgrade though.And boats as well.Horses>knights>dragoons>cavalry is a fast track to conquest...I want them both

While Mike's is, IMHO, the most important, I always go for all three at diety level, sp or mp.



:tank:

 

[starlifter]

Easiest choice I've seen. MC, far and away. Of course, I assume normal game at the Deity level. Neither wonder is particularly valuable in OCC, for instance.

Sethos said it pretty well "Leo's will become obsolete, Mike's never. Mike's chapel saves you a huge amount of gold. It's harder to live without Mike's than without Leo's".

With a basic 150 large cities, you save 3*150=450 gold per turn in a Democracy. Even in Fundy, you are granted 3 (or 4) gold in tithes per city.
In late game, I buy (not build) improvements for new cities every turn or every 2nd turn. This alone saves me about 230 gold per city in construction costs, plus allows the city to come online 1 or 2 turns sooner.

The analytical resoning of Ace and Cliff make excellent points, too. In the end, a high difficulty game makes the MC a hands-down must-have.

Of course, a truly unique wonder that is also more valuable than Leo's is JS Bach.... no wonder or improvement can duplicate it's effect, and is 2nd behind MC for the MVP.

 

[starlifter]

by Kev:

If connected by roads or rail, that helps as well. Different continents will usually pay more as well delivering to foreign lands (though I like to trade with my own cities only). Freight is more valuable as well.

Roads: 50% bonus, Rail 50% extra bonus (100% total).

Delivery to foriegn lands: 100% of value; to your own city, cut by 50%. Do not be afraid of earning upwards of 4,000 gold for a single carefully chosen freight delivery to the enemy... they get no bonus. I'd pay to put airports and SH's in their cities if I could, LOL...

Also, if both cities have airports, it increases the payoff even further.

By exactly 50%

Mike's is indeed the top priority. The second one, however, is NOT Leo's... JS Bach's for the same reason that Mike's is #1: Happiness.

A huge, but often overlooked reason is that no other wonder or improvement can do what JS Bach does.... well, Shakespeare does, but for the entire city (or sometimes 19-20 citizens in some govt's like commie); also, a police station (or WS) can cut democratic unhappiness by on (leaving one unhappy) per respective unit. But the key is the unhappy citizens that are mollified in line 5 -- that is, AFTER all other unhappiness from citizens away (rep & demo) have been applied. This fact can allow a much larger democratic army in the field, before or after PS/WS.

As for Leo's, simply found new cities with settlers, and make new engineers. All other units can be recycled (50%) or expended... the upside to that is you can create Vet. replacement units. Downside is movement, time, and gold/shields. In GOTM 16 today, I was ready to assault the Spanish capital with 3 vet legions, when Leo's converted them to worthless (for assaults) non-vet musketeers. Thanks for letting Madrid live for about 150 more years, Leo. Best friend the enemy had, LOL. Another example is the midst of a pitched naval battle or bombardment with vet ironclads, when you get non-vet destroyers which die or take heavy damage to get their critical vet status back. Such downsides do not exist with MC or JSB.

That said, I still like Leos. But in a full, competitive game, it actually comes in #4 behind Hoover Dam for me personally. Any way you slice it, I'm either gunna build or capture Leos.

 

[Philosopher12]

Leo's is great for an absolute warmonger like me. Too bad it Expires before Mobile warfare, cause I love Calvalry and Tanks :tank:

 

[starlifter]

You can make it never expire by changing ou rules.txt:

....
; Expiration advancements for Wonders of the World
;
@ENDWONDER
nil,        ; Pyramids
RR,         ; Hanging Gardens
Fli,        ; Colossus
Mag,        ; Lighthouse
E1,         ; Great Library
The,        ; Oracle
Met,        ; Great Wall
Mob,        ; Sun Tzu's War Academy
Ind,        ; King Richard's Crusade
Cmn,        ; Marco Polo's Embassy
nil,        ; Michelangelo
nil,        ; Copernicus
nil,        ; Magellan
nil,        ; Shakespeare
Aut,        ; Da Vinci's Workshop
nil,        ; Bach
nil,        ; Newton
....

Simply change Aut to nil (be sure to make a backup copy of your rules.txt before editing it). You'll also get everything else upgraded, LOL....

If Leo's never expired, it would move up to #3 in my list of favorite wonders .

 

[Ren]

damn you s.l. you took my comment

well under my rules, leo's is invaluable, considering i usually play on Prince or lower

under normal rules, Michelangelo's takes the prize, cause it doesn't expire and it also saves money on maintanence (as does Pyramids. Also Great Wall before Metallurgy - under normal rules anyway )

 

[starlifter]

You have the most information packed into your Signature, Ren! A saying, a credit, a link, an advertisement with link, and a cool note! And all in multicolor without having clutterishness.

damn you s.l. you took my comment

hehe.... early bird gets the worm!

Yeah, Leos really is great, esp. if you have a large army faraway. Can't beat that instant upgrade.

But that instant upgrade can beat you. I was attacking Madrid in GOTM16 with vet Legions, and I forgot and built Leos. The Vet Legions were converted to non-vet musketeers, and I had to break off for a century or two.

 

[Ren]

Is there really that much difference between Veteran Legions and Non-Veteran Musketeers? I must check that out.

And btw that saying is all links as well You should see how long the vbcode is for those 5 lines

 

[macmgr]

As you've all pointed out, it depends on the level and the goal - however, I really get a charge out of seeing a gazillion diplomats evolve into spies -- it's the little things in life...

 

[Old n Slow]

Same topic, different slant -- when was the last time anyone actually had to CHOOSE Mike's or Leo's in SP? I voted for Leo's but I think that Mike's is more valuable as already noted.

The key for my vote was the pressure to CHOOSE. For newbies & mid-grade folks, being down a tech level or facing too many enemies, hmmmm.

Personally, I think that having Mike's in place & getting the advantages of WLT_D can prevent a tech deficit, and that is the way to go. But I also think that most of us in SP can build the majority of Wonders, especially all of the critical post Ancient ones.

Which comes down to the element of choice. What would you recommend for a newbie who was under sufficient pressure (game level commensurate with playing skill) that a choice was needed? Some of these players may be at Warlord level with two defenders in every city under a monarchy & no city larger than size eight -- a case where Mike's does.....(pick a small random number).