Let's deal

[Victoria]

I have been having a play with deals.

A player that is denounced clearly rips you off or if you have a really bad score they start demanding rather that dealing which is not deals.

For deals in general is seems like you get the best deals from the wealthiest civs rather than how friendly they are above denounced. I am just wondering how others find deals.

 

[historix69]

I get more in a deal when I am on friendly terms with the AI, AI wants something from me and when AI initiates the deal (during AI turn).
When I offer the same deal to the AI, they usually deny or have unrealistic demands. Probably AI needs to first make up its mind what it wants and what it is worth and that is during AI turn.

If they denounce me, they usually do offer only crap for my resources or demand them ...

You should be able to test the value of a resource or artefact to AI by offering a lump sum, e.g. in a game I could buy Great Works from Kongo for 2.500 Gold per piece. (When I asked them what they want, they demanded something silly like 2.000 Gold for 30 turns + lots of resources, but 2.500 Gold in cash was ok.)

 

[agonistes]

I get more earlier in the game, and more for strategics than amenities provided the ai doesn't have it.

Japan, Kongo, and Australia tend to give me the best deals - the only deals post- classical that aren't laughable, actually, unless a peace treaty is involved.

edit: which, Victoria, makes me wonder if distance plays a part in how good a deal might be. Further they are, more they will offer? Or distance impacts something else that impacts deals?

edit 2: I've pretty much stopped making trades at anything less than 2+ gold/t for a resource. A good trade I consider 9ish/t.

edit 3: If memory serves, you can get upwards of 500 gold for horses in ancient times, before you can even use them

 

[Rosty K]

Friendly and Unfriendly AI will try to rip you off in a different way

Unfriendly AI will offer ridiculous deals (like lump sum of gold for 3 luxuries, strategic resource and your leg). Friendly AI will offer a good looking deal but will try to push something outrageous along with it (like a research agreement for a tech you are about to discover in 1 turn, or a joint war with another friendly AI). In the latter case you can usually remove that questionable item, and the deal will still be good.

 

[Victoria]

Japan, Kongo, and Australia tend to give me the best deals - the only deals post- classical that aren't laughable, actually, unless a peace treaty is involved.

The trick is this.... open up the deal screen and click in all their gold... you then see what they have on the table
Japan aus and Kongo often have lots of gold... well not so much Japan. Also Qin.

Now find the one with the most GPT and swap your lux with them 23/30 per turn whether unfriendly or not... just not denounced... denounced is turning out to be quite a nasty thing.

 

[ShakaKhan]

This goes back to civ5 where the source of the problem is that having redundant copies of the same resource gets you absolutely nothing. FIrst off, this makes no sense; having just enough citrus to make yummy drinks for only the social elite of a society will not have as much of an appeasing effect on the populace as it would if you had enough citrus to make drinks for the entire population. Second off, it leaves you with additional resource yields, which in this game are basically a form of currency, which gives you nothing unless you are able to trade it for something of value. Third, it puts a much harder cap on the amenity ceiling, which may be a good thing because it suggests benefits of a taller empire instead of a wider one that the game currently has a great deal of imbalance with, but it usually doesn't work that way and instead just means that it's going to be a harder, or rather less successful, game. It would seem to be very logical that a start where your first three cities can have 20 goldmines should lead to an incredible start, but due to this game mechanic it would be much better to have just one copy of 10 different resources than 30 copies of a single resource.

As such, for the original topic I just take what I can get, because having extra copies is wasteful. Yeah, one gold per turn is a pretty minor advantage, but having a second copy of a luxury is no advantage at all.

 

[Photi]

As such, for the original topic I just take what I can get, because having extra copies is wasteful. Yeah, one gold per turn is a pretty minor advantage, but having a second copy of a luxury is no advantage at all.

sorry, but this is quite the exaggeration here. maybe the first copy only provides the primary advantage, but the secondary advantages that accrue to duplicates of resources in the form of deal making are perhaps more valuable than the primary:

Spoiler Door #2 :

edit and fyi: the -66 to Tomyris is for a great work of writing

 

[Victoria]

is that having redundant copies of the same resource gets you absolutely nothing

My best deal last night for salt was 30 gold for 30 turns and 80 gold.

If you want to steamroller (not a game requirement) then you will miss out on these deals.

Please open a thread if you want to discuss the value of amenities, (gold mines ) here we are discussing the value of deals.

 

[cazaderonus]

Deals are completely dumb at the moment.

Sometimes i can sell the same luxury to the same AI multiple times for insane amount of GPT, and sometimes i cant. An Ai will agree to buy a lux or a strategic resource for up to 45 GPT while being angry at me, and a friend will give me +4GPT for the same lux. Though overall, having good relations with an AI will get your more profits from trades.

So, all i have to say is : Deals matter and can be full of surprises ! Especially those strategic resources you dont use can make you rich as hell. Oh, and those useless great works of art ? CA$H them in if you dont go for a cultural victory. A few times I used those to get Great works of Writing to fill my amphitheaters, managed to get 2 GwoW for 1 GwoA

 

[Victoria]

An Ai will agree to buy a lux or a strategic resource for up to 45 GPT while being angry at me

Unfriendly... not angry... this confirms to me that deals are not primarily based on mood unless denounced. Thank you!

and a friend will give me +4GPT for the same lux

YES!..., that is because of my comment erlier Let's deal
... you chose a poor friend and a rich enemy, maybe not much choice in the matter but hey, gold is still gold

Here is a great example... I am just starting a deity game and next to be is Gilga, Pedro and Gorgo... Pedro is just going to hate me eventually and I just do not like him anyway and he contests my common VC.
Gorgo and gilga are both risks.... what do I do? ... well I can declare against pedro to please gorgo..... or I do a joint war againt pedro with Gilga... If I can get Gilga onside he can be a friend for life!
But wait... just how desperate is Gilga for war?... below is how much, it may not seem like lot but gilga is now 2 GPT poorer and lost all his loose cash...and I am richer and gold is god. It also gives me +6 with Gilga for a joint war... happy days

A few turns later at turn 61... I have not built one district yet and this is my income

Now you cannot ignore that much extra gold that early... it just gives such opportunities
.... and this is while being a warmonger.... so many out there just seem to not appreciate the value and are just flamey rather than say OK fair enough, there is some value. Cmon, the evidence is there.

Gorgo is now my main competition and how much cash does she how have? It seems you can use gold and deals to catch up while slowing down your enemies until you can catch up

 

[cll3]

gonna throw in a couple of ai tendencies I've noticed for negative reaction deals. These happen less when you're neutral rating (ie when you first meet them), in which case you're dealing more predictably. But I piss everyone off eventually so here are some things I noticed the AI do:

1. peace treaty offering initiated by ai is usually at half the static amount, max per turn amount
after changing the amounts to find the exact breakpoint hundreds of times (usually double everything, halve the delta a bunch of times, eventually reducing delta of 1 to quickly find the breakpoint.. kinda like quadrature lul). So, you just slide the gpt to 0 and max static gold at slightly >30:1 ratio, then slide the gpt up 1 at a time from your initial breakpoint total, to find max total much faster than simple trial and error. If you're lazy and don't have the OCD to always get max, just double the static gold offer and it'll be pretty close.

2. deals are not purely additive, especially in lower reaction ratings. So if A trades for 200g and B trades for 200g by themselves, when you put in A and B together in one deal, it'll usually be >400g.
So, for example if you're about to start a war to wipe someone out, try to basket deal for all its static gold in one deal to maximize return efficiency (it likely won't matter anyways because you're about to declare war anyways).

3. sometimes items can go into negative value.
I've noticed multiple deals later on where I actually gotta pay the AI more (or ask for less) when I toss in open borders. Nice meme, Pedro.

 

[Victoria]

Here is another nice deal... turn24 of my next game ... tricky choice as I have 3 elephants

 

[Abraxis]

Super cute, funny and silly elephants for an old man's dirty old used bathrobe. He's playing you for a sucker!

 

[DizzKneeLand33]

Yes, WHAT is with the AI selling their (permanent) relics for a luxury deal for 30 turns? I had a game where I got *three* relics (thank goodness I made the temples to hold them) before turn 85 (epic/immortal). Does the AI not value the relics? Or maybe if the AI victory condition isn't culture then it doesn't? Very strange....

EDIT: One of those deals was for a horse for 30 turns, the other two luxes.

 

[Abraxis]

The victory they're going for definitely factors in. I've priced out great works of writing from France the turn before and the turn after I got the message she'd switched her victory aim away from cultural and she was willing to sell them for half the price she had been before.

 

[Victoria]

Nice! Thank you, just what this thread is for
I really need to get such tips into a doc
Those alerts are jolly annoying but have their uses.
I guess it's a question of how much you want to engage with the game

 

[PYITE]

The AI puts extra value on cash up front vs gpt in deals.

I have noticed getting better deals for certain luxuries to specific AIs. It could be a function of availablility but it seems like some leaders have preferred luxuries. For example if I have extra copy of 2 luxuries that Monty doesn't have and one is tobacco he will give more for his preferred tobacco. I have had the same thing with wine-France and jade-China.

 

[Victoria]

Interesting, I have seen no difference in testing but jade china is a good example and as you are seeing a difference and I am not then that does indicate they may have a specific desire....makes the game deeper.

 

[Abraxis]

Here is an immortal save with almost everyone allied with top secret access level and a near endless supply of gold to test out different values if you want. It was this game where France changed strategies and value for her works. She changed a few times and probably would again.

 

[Victoria]

I think I am done with load n test games. Done so many I just like chillin and watching when I play.
I may have enough for some sort of dip guide soon but it will not be complete coz many things are hidden, threads like this just help me so much.
I may loadntest but if they are mostly allied it's a bit meh as I am trying to get some type of real of what truly effects deals as I see little in the xml files.
Just a hint from my "peek under the hood of diplomacy" thread pics that only denounced players have different deal modifiers.