Let's talk about Guided Missiles & modern warfare

[Xaviarlol]

Hi Gazebo / crew / all

Just wanted to discuss modern warfare in CBP and hear other peoples thoughts on the below.

Guided Missile
In CBP you moved guided missile to earlier tech and reduced its damage to 50. Just wondering if it would be a good idea to create an upgrade in a later tech to bring it in line with modern warfare? I personally love using them but they are obsolete in the modern game due to the low damage.


Drones
There is a pretty cool drone/UAV unit mod ( http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=494209 ). I think there is definitely some space in the game for a unit like this. It is movable like a helicopter and can travel on water without embarking. It has a recon promotion, giving it naturally good visibility and is invisible (except by Destroyers and missile cruisers, same code as Subs) so it works really nicely as a spy plane. It can also carry 2 Guided missiles (but not nuclear), but otherwise can't attack. The hardest part about adding this unit would be the AI - it is not really good at targeting hover units in water.

Helicopters
A nice change would also be allowing helicopters to hover over water (at the moment they embark) (nevermind this change is already in CBP). This would allow them to engage naval units and give them a little more flavour then they currently have. One other change I've made in my own mod is to allow them to move after attack, reflecting its relative high-speed and giving it a little more utility.

Stealth Bombers
At present, these act as a simple upgrade to bombers. In my opinion this causes a few problems in the late game, mainly that you can't really counter them effectively. It is also highly unrealistic as B2 Stealth bombers do not replace modern bombers as they cost far more. In my mod I changed them to be standalone strategic bomber units that are much more expensive, cost 2 Aluminum, greatly increased production cost, and have a longer bombard range. Also removed upgrading bombers to stealth bombers.

Nuclear Submarine
This unit becomes far less effective after Missile Cruisers, to the point where it becomes silly to even build them. Missile Cruisers are better in every way - and they have direct bonuses against Subs. A few suggestions in keeping nuclear subs unique and effective is as follows:
- Remove combat bonus from Missile Cruiser against it. It is already more powerful in combat against nuke subs, it doesn't need to be able to one-shot them. No change to their ability to detect subs.
- Allow nuclear subs to move after attacking. This at least makes the nuclear sub a threat to the naval dominance of the missile cruiser and fits the right flavour of subs being hit and run attackers.

That's all I got for now, what are your thoughts?

 

[Tarzan737]

I can suggest u to play with advanced air units mod and advanced ground units mod
I do that together with This mod! Its really fun!!

There is advanced naval units mod to but im not sure it works with this but i think so!

U can set the animation speed by yourself in the code

(moverate)

 

[zeta]

I can suggest u to play with advanced air units mod and advanced ground units mod
I do that together with This mod! Its really fun!!

There is advanced naval units mod to but im not sure it works with this but i think so!

U can set the animation speed by yourself in the code

(moverate)

If those mods add any new units, I wouldn't recommend them. Might not be balanced with CBP. As you know CBP makes changes to units as well, so values are probably off-charts.

 

[JungleBucks]

Drones
There is a pretty cool drone/UAV unit mod ( http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=494209 ). I think there is definitely some space in the game for a unit like this. It is movable like a helicopter and can travel on water without embarking. It has a recon promotion, giving it naturally good visibility and is invisible (except by Destroyers and missile cruisers, same code as Subs) so it works really nicely as a spy plane. It can also carry 2 Guided missiles (but not nuclear), but otherwise can't attack. The hardest part about adding this unit would be the AI - it is not really good at targeting hover units in water.

Scouts currently upgrade to paratroopers which loose a lot of the Scouts promotions. Something like a drone unit would be perfect for maintaining information age surveillance on enemies. It's a small complaint, considering how late game it is, but I REALLY like having Scouts around.

 

[Matches]

The guided missile was given a bonus vs. cities, but I'm not sure I think that's right thematically for a guided missile. I don't envision cruise missiles as something where you say "Okay let's use 3 or 4 of these to completely reduce a city's defenses." Aren't these used to destroy high value targets with precision?

 

[phantom1998]

In an ideal word, the guided missile should completely eliminate a target if it attacks a unit. If it attacks a city it we should get to choose which building improvement it attacks and it should destroy (have a high chance to) that building (e.g. factory, military academy, etc.)

 

[Moi Magnus]

In an ideal word, the guided missile should completely eliminate a target if it attacks a unit. If it attacks a city it we should get to choose which building improvement it attacks and it should destroy (have a high chance to) that building (e.g. factory, military academy, etc.)

Or kill the unit in garnison ? Easier to code, and no AI traning to do.

 

[phantom1998]

That's why I said in an ideal world

 

[Matches]

Problem is, what if there's no unit garrisoned? I am just wondering from a flavor standpoint would be better if the missile had it's bonus reversed -- poor vs. cities (this is what artillery is for) and close to one-shot deadly against contemporary ground and naval forces?

I'd also like the missile to be able to effect the destruction of tile improvements. In fact all air units should probably have this but as I recall I dont think they do. Should be able to bomb out oil wells, mines, etc. if you have air superiority.

 

[HG_CassiusA]

Problem is, what if there's no unit garrisoned? I am just wondering from a flavor standpoint would be better if the missile had it's bonus reversed -- poor vs. cities (this is what artillery is for) and close to one-shot deadly against contemporary ground and naval forces?

I was thinking much the same thing, that it really should severely damage if not outright kill even contemporary units.

I'd also like the missile to be able to effect the destruction of tile improvements. In fact all air units should probably have this but as I recall I dont think they do. Should be able to bomb out oil wells, mines, etc. if you have air superiority.

This, so much this. I also really miss the air recon ability aircraft had in Civ4.

 

[Revolutionist_8]

close to one-shot deadly against contemporary ground and naval forces?

That would be way too overpowered in my humble opinion, given the fact that missiles are pretty cheap.

I'd also like the missile to be able to effect the destruction of tile improvements. In fact all air units should probably have this but as I recall I dont think they do. Should be able to bomb out oil wells, mines, etc. if you have air superiority.

This would be indeed a really good and welcomed feature, but maybe bombing is hardcoded to units and cities only?!

 

[Matches]

That would be way too overpowered in my humble opinion, given the fact that missiles are pretty cheap.

Well the version I'm using right now, the missile is 64% of the cost of a Bazooka, with the same combat strength. If it's not overpowered to give it a 50% boost vs. cities, I don't know that it would be that overpowered if it were in reverse. Right now a Guided Missile gets 75 strength vs. cities which is comparable to the contemporary Rocket Artillery.

75 strength and a penalty vs. cities makes it stronger than a bazooka vs. most units, less strong than a bazooka vs. tanks, with the drawback that it dies on use.

This would be indeed a really good and welcomed feature, but maybe bombing is hardcoded to units and cities only?!

I doubt it would be bombing, but somehow applying pillage abilities to the ranged of the unit? Not sure if it's doable.

 

[Revolutionist_8]

Well the version I'm using right now, the missile is 64% of the cost of a Bazooka, with the same combat strength. If it's not overpowered to give it a 50% boost vs. cities, I don't know that it would be that overpowered if it were in reverse. Right now a Guided Missile gets 75 strength vs. cities which is comparable to the contemporary Rocket Artillery.

75 strength and a penalty vs. cities makes it stronger than a bazooka vs. most units, less strong than a bazooka vs. tanks, with the drawback that it dies on use.



I doubt it would be bombing, but somehow applying pillage abilities to the ranged of the unit? Not sure if it's doable.

I think I see what you're saying, but just think about it: nearly deadly shot on contemporary units would mean two missiles for each unit. You can just basically stockpile them, with their range plus being able to put them on subs and cruisers could potentially make other units useless. And they aren't affected by interception either.

Yeah me neither unfortunately, maybe a 'Raze' function could be given to their 'Bombing' ability, if no units / cities are present on that tile. No clue :/

 

[Matches]

I wonder how they are used now, if at all? Personally I rarely used them outside this mod as they seem like a waste for what they give me. With the CP, I just think the flavor of making it specialized vs. cities is all wrong. I'm sure there's a balance to be found where they are useful in some situations but OP to the point where it's "why would I build anything else"? Does it make sense to have them require aluminum? That would prevent stockpiling...