Let's test some Pantheons!

[Funak]

A 3-tile radius is workable 35 tiles, meaning that approximately 4 in 10 tiles need to be forested (15/35=42%) to get 5 f/c per turn from the Pantheon. This is almost guaranteed with a forest bias, and quite doable with even a moderately forested start Though not always centralized, it is likely that you can settle another city to receive 3-5 culture.

So, what you're saying is that if you're playing that one civ with forest stating bias, you're going to get more benefit out of renewal? Yes, that is correct...

If you're playing Inca you're probably going to get about the same benefit out of goddess of nature. With the added benefit of not getting screwed over by forest/jungle mixes (as they don't stack).

Adding to this, Herbalist'd forests and jungles are strictly superior to Farms unless you can produce proper pods (3) or megafarm sprawls until Civil Service. After that point, I agree that Farms (particularly with Imperialism, Freedom, and/or Cathedrals) become superior.

3 'pods' are pretty much a guarantee, in fact you're likely to get multiple farms with double adjacent bonuses.
Even if you disregard that, you usually have to clear forest/jungle to improve resources and you need mined hills for production-focus.

 

[TheUnholyPotato]

So, what you're saying is that if you're playing that one civ with forest stating bias, you're going to get more benefit out of renewal? Yes, that is correct...

If you're playing Inca you're probably going to get about the same benefit out of goddess of nature. With the added benefit of not getting screwed over by forest/jungle mixes (as they don't stack).

The point is that when you "win" the forest lottery, and take Renewal, you win bigger than with other pantheons. What other pantheons provide similar yields?

3 'pods' are pretty much a guarantee, in fact you're likely to get multiple farms with double adjacent bonuses.
Even if you disregard that, you usually have to clear forest/jungle to improve resources and you need mined hills for production-focus.

Three-farm pods are frequently achievable, assuming that you can dodge other resources. Even then, they have to be on Grassland to be "superior" (4f/4f/4f). On Plains, they are comparable (3f1p/3f1p/3f1p), but still require improvement time.

2 unboosted/1 boosted farm pods are not better than Herbalist-enhanced forests. I do not know of a period in which I would trade 1 food and worker time for two production.

 

[Funak]

The point is that when you "win" the forest lottery, and take Renewal, you win bigger than with other pantheons. What other pantheons provide similar yields?

Goddess of Nature, Goddess of Purity, God of the Open Sea, God of the Expanse, Goddess of Beauty, God of Commerce, God of Wealth.

There are benefits to starting in the forest, there are benefits to starting outside the forest.

Three-farm pods are frequently achievable, assuming that you can dodge other resources. Even then, they have to be on Grassland to be "superior" (4f/4f/4f). On Plains, they are comparable (3f1p/3f1p/3f1p), but still require improvement time.

2 unboosted/1 boosted farm pods are not better than Herbalist-enhanced forests. I do not know of a period in which I would trade 1 food and worker time for two production.

Double adjacent were referring to farms with 4 adjacent farms, getting +2 food.
The main benefit of cutting down the forest is that you get access to mines, and usually full food tiles. Having tiles with full food or full production is a huge benefit over having tiles with both of them on. As it leads to you being able to choose when you want to grow and when you want to produce. Besides, plain-forests aren't 3f1p they are 2f2p.

 

[joosegoose25]

For what it's worth, the Forest/Jungle pantheon is what led me to this thread. That's right...I had unfortunately pretty much forgotten about the balance subforum, but that pantheon seems so OP I made sure to seek out a pantheon thread to discuss it.

I don't have much of a cohesive argument planned out, but my biggest CBP snowballs have all involved that pantheon. A decent bit of woodlands and I complete my first policy so much quicker, not to mention getting a crazy fast religion and, this is huge, getting a decent chunk of culture in cities which would typically expand much, much more slowly. This combined with the fact that woodlands are already a pretty strong start (3 yield--4 with herbalist--tiles without even needing a worker to improve? yes please!) makes my early games ridiculously stronger in forest.

I'll never forget the first game when I realized that the woodlands within 3 tiles of the city applied to all tiles and not just in your territory. I had effectively ignored the pantheon until that point, but ever since then it's been my no-brainer go-to unless I have absolutely no woodlands around me. Often the best instant yields (no improvements required, and don't need to wait for borders to expand to certain tiles), usually the best source of local culture per city, and situationally a very high potential for faith and culture per turn, only tapering off later in the game when pantheon yields aren't nearly as important anyways.

Sorry for the wall of text. It took me a while to spout off with my 2 cents on this partly because I've enjoyed eating the game's lunch with it, but I finally started to feel cheesy about it I guess.

 

[Gazebo]

For what it's worth, the Forest/Jungle pantheon is what led me to this thread. That's right...I had unfortunately pretty much forgotten about the balance subforum, but that pantheon seems so OP I made sure to seek out a pantheon thread to discuss it.

I don't have much of a cohesive argument planned out, but my biggest CBP snowballs have all involved that pantheon. A decent bit of woodlands and I complete my first policy so much quicker, not to mention getting a crazy fast religion and, this is huge, getting a decent chunk of culture in cities which would typically expand much, much more slowly. This combined with the fact that woodlands are already a pretty strong start (3 yield--4 with herbalist--tiles without even needing a worker to improve? yes please!) makes my early games ridiculously stronger in forest.

I'll never forget the first game when I realized that the woodlands within 3 tiles of the city applied to all tiles and not just in your territory. I had effectively ignored the pantheon until that point, but ever since then it's been my no-brainer go-to unless I have absolutely no woodlands around me. Often the best instant yields (no improvements required, and don't need to wait for borders to expand to certain tiles), usually the best source of local culture per city, and situationally a very high potential for faith and culture per turn, only tapering off later in the game when pantheon yields aren't nearly as important anyways.

Sorry for the wall of text. It took me a while to spout off with my 2 cents on this partly because I've enjoyed eating the game's lunch with it, but I finally started to feel cheesy about it I guess.

You think 1 per 4 (instead of 1 per 3) would work?
G

 

[Funak]

You think 1 per 4 (instead of 1 per 3) would work?

I honestly think 1 per 4 would just be close to worthless.
I'm not saying that 1 per 3 is balanced, in some situations you get way too much out of it, but those situations are pretty rare and as I've mentioned before the belief really falls off later on in the game, both because you get forced into cutting down jungle/forest to get resources and because even if you start in a jungle you're really unlikely to be able to fit that many cities within the jungle. Later expansions are not going to get anything out of it.

I actually think the big advantage that this belief have over the other pantheons is that it works without improvements, and building improvements takes too long, but I don't really see a way to fix that.

 

[joosegoose25]

I honestly think 1 per 4 would just be close to worthless.
I'm not saying that 1 per 3 is balanced, in some situations you get way too much out of it, but those situations are pretty rare and as I've mentioned before the belief really falls off later on in the game, both because you get forced into cutting down jungle/forest to get resources and because even if you start in a jungle you're really unlikely to be able to fit that many cities within the jungle. Later expansions are not going to get anything out of it.

I actually think the big advantage that this belief have over the other pantheons is that it works without improvements, and building improvements takes too long, but I don't really see a way to fix that.

I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. If faced with a choice between 1 per 3 or 1 per 4, I would take 1 per 4 hands down from a balance perspective. Will it be one of the weaker pantheons on average? Perhaps, but there are so many pantheons to choose from I don't really care. You could add a pantheon to the game that is completely worthless 99% of the time, but gives +100 faith per turn the other 1% and I'll advocate for its removal from the game. You'll only snatch it up when it's the most useful pantheon for you anyways, and bringing the absurdly powerful potential yields back down to reasonable levels is more important imo.

I've had a few situations with +6 faith/culture or more in 2, 3, or more cities right off the bat, without even needing to improve anything. That's way too powerful that early. Sure it tapers off some later on, but at that point your pantheon has already served its purpose and isn't nearly as important. Time will tell if 1 per 4 is appropriate, but I initially feel much better about it.

 

[Der_Zorn_gottes]

Wohoo! God of war doing it!
Last game, picked it and started attacking the neighbours. I was first to found.
Later in the game (I went for Domination and was fighting non stop) I was generating so much faith from kills that I was given three prophets (after I had already enhanced).
It felt great.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I think Goddess of Protection is a bit bad which makes the AI's fascination with it just weird. 2fa1c per barracks/walls may not be terrible, but it is on later ancient era buildings with more than 1 ancient era prerequisite techs each and those buildings are also on two completely unconnected techs, effectively ensuring your religion will be late. +40% city ranged attack bonus doesn't help this enough.

It wouldn't be that bad for this pantheon to be underwhelming (some have to be) if not for the AI's weird love for this. Gandhi just loves taking it on first turn and then he often fails to even found a religion (unless he gets stonehenge) because by the time he researches those techs, some of the religions are already founded and the others are halfway to their foundation.

It's especially terrible compared to God of Fertility (I think that's the name?) which has +2faith+1food on a building available instantly and on a building that is unlocked with a tier 1 tech which doesn't have any prerequisites (granted Well will only be in some of your cities, but at least those cities are thanks to it almost equal to river cities early on), but it also gives you a quite insane +15% growth that works everywhere and is several times better than just some silly ranged attack bonus.

I feel like it could need more yields on the buildings as they come later so that while you are less likely to found a religion, at least you are more rewarded yield-wise than usual if you go along with it.

Alternatively I'd recommend adding actual CS on top of the ranged strength, or having it give free Walls and/or Barracks in the capital to at least make the AI/people who take it still get some yields while they're researching all those ancient and classical era prerequisite techs.

Or the AI should be made to know this is a bad pantheon they should be taking only if they're late to the religious game and everything good has already been taken while they have the techs/almost have the techs that require it.

 

[pandasnail]

So I came to this thread to mention two things, but they've both already been covered. Since I'm here and logged in, I'll reiterate I guess.

The new God of War, at least on Marathon is insanely good imo. 99 Faith for killing a Spearman? Yes please. Playing as The Aztecs, so there's some double dipping, but I've enhanced with only one other founded religion. And even that one is only because Warsaw has eleven mountains in its three-radius. AND when I capture a city I can imm. start healing 30 a turn, combined with the March promo, that's quite good by itself.

Second, three of the last four times Gandhi has been in my game, he's chosen the Protection pantheon. I'm not sure what's going on, but I don't understand this choice at all. I know the 2/17 version has changes to leaders, idk if this is still relevant.

 

[Gazebo]

So I came to this thread to mention two things, but they've both already been covered. Since I'm here and logged in, I'll reiterate I guess.

The new God of War, at least on Marathon is insanely good imo. 99 Faith for killing a Spearman? Yes please. Playing as The Aztecs, so there's some double dipping, but I've enhanced with only one other founded religion. And even that one is only because Warsaw has eleven mountains in its three-radius. AND when I capture a city I can imm. start healing 30 a turn, combined with the March promo, that's quite good by itself.

Second, three of the last four times Gandhi has been in my game, he's chosen the Protection pantheon. I'm not sure what's going on, but I don't understand this choice at all. I know the 2/17 version has changes to leaders, idk if this is still relevant.

Well, Zorn says its perfect, you say its overtuned, others before now said its underwhelming. What a pickle.

G

 

[Atlas627]

I have never chosen Goddess of Protection and have never seen a reason to. It doesn't help found a religion any more than any other pantheon, it doesn't give strong non-faith early game boosts (which means its good to pick if you already know you won't found but will get someone else's religion), and it has no synergy with anything.

Can it give yields for garrisons instead of the City Combat bonus?

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I have never chosen Goddess of Protection and have never seen a reason to. It doesn't help found a religion any more than any other pantheon, it doesn't give strong non-faith early game boosts (which means its good to pick if you already know you won't found but will get someone else's religion), and it has no synergy with anything.

Can it give yields for garrisons instead of the City Combat bonus?

I think on previous page Gazebo mentioned there's no script for yields for garrisons for pantheons so that's not possible.

Goddess of Protection does need some buffs though. It's seriously bad because it's on two late ancient era buildings that have two prerequisite techs (some civs have their religions done by the time you even research them both if the AI chose pantheons well), it doesn't give any more faith than other options and does it later, the culture it gives is unimpressive, it requires lots of production for the buildings while those buildings aren't must-haves neither, not like Granary/Market/Well/Shrine/etc (other buildings from other pantheons).

If it has to be only on buildings that come that late it should give more noticeable yield bonus, or those buildings should maybe be gotten free in the capital (which could be the buff this one needs), or even both.

The +40% ranged city damage buff is not noticeable neither because ranged city damage itself is rather small in CBP (it tickles), so making it 40% stronger is only a slight, barely noticeable difference.

It should go and be replaced with something worthwhile, like maybe +XP for units trained in cities or maybe bonus CS for all the cities (it'd also slightly help with unhappiness from Crime), or maybe have it make Barracks and Walls automatically be invested in so they'd be built 50% faster to compensate for the fact they are locked behind such "late" technologies when it comes to getting a religion, or maybe have the capital get those buildings for free to speed the GoP religious game up.

 

[Bromar1]

It's kinda funny actually because I find God of War to be better defensively than goddess of protection. The ranged combat strength is borderline pointless. The extra health in owned territory is much better for holding off enemies.

 

[Gazebo]

It's kinda funny actually because I find God of War to be better defensively than goddess of protection. The ranged combat strength is borderline pointless. The extra health in owned territory is much better for holding off enemies.

Some users believe God of War is OP. Perhaps drop range strike and add healing there, and leave God of War as the faith-farming pantheon?

G

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Some users believe God of War is OP. Perhaps drop range strike and add healing there, and leave God of War as the faith-farming pantheon?

G

My opinion?

Goddess of Protection's problem is less the secondary effect (although it is terrible) and more the fact pantheons are the primary way of getting to the religion in CBP. Barracks and Walls come quite late. Both require to research 3 techs for just one of them and then they need to be constructed which also takes quite the time.

They also cost a lot of production to construct each (more than Shrine/Granary/etc) so your religion will either be very late or, more likely, not appear at all (unless you've got some nice faith from UB/UI/UA/whatever). Gandhi usually fails to get a religion whenever he decides to take this pantheon on first turn.

What GoP needs is enough yields to compensate for coming so terribly late. By the time for instance Construction is researched some AIs are halfway if not more to a religion, meanwhile you've been getting precisely nothing from your pantheon and even after you construct one of the buildings (which cost a lot of production and have little benefits by themselves this early)


The problem is the Pantheon relies on two buildings that are not very good that early on themselves which is not the case with every other pantheon which all touch buildings very important for development - Granary, Shrine, Well, Market, Herbalist. In some of these cases it's even more sad as the building merely gives culture, you get faith from an improvement that is instantly/quickly gotten.

Meanwhile Walls and Barracks don't have a real synergy with themselves so early on (Barracks never seemed efficient at Crime fighting low pop), are far away in ancient era and unconnected technologically, meaning researching and building only one nets you a measly 2 Faith 1 Culture. After you get your Walls/Barracks, you still need to research 3 more techs to unlock another one for 4 Faith 2C total - in some of your cities that is, the ones without much production will need lots of time to even build them.

Meanwhile every other pantheon has been getting lots of Faith and often other bonuses beforehand and so they may take your chance for a religion away.


This pantheon needs some faith making buffs I think, as it stands it's probably the worst one for getting a religion. Can't see a reason I should ever take it. If it's supposed to be bad in this regard then maybe it should get some other yields on top of culture aside from faith?

 

[pandasnail]

I guess idk if I meant to say God of War is OP or if I think its suits what it does perfect. Not many players engage in as much early warfare as I do I think. Its my playstyle, I play on Marathon, and I'm stuck on a difficulty I'm prob too good for. I have to crush my diplomacy to get a religion from it, and it did nothing during the peaceful parts of the game. I mean God King is OP if you get the religion, its getting the religion that's hard. Here its not other sources of faith, but pissing the world off. Now all that faith plus units healing 30 a turn is maybe too much, but I think I would rec replacing the healing instead of getting rid entirely. Swag writes persuasively that faith on barracks is useless for GoP and getting a religion, maybe GoW could have that instead?

I just remember the days where I would pick GoW, fight four wars, and get no religion, and I'm just excited those days seem to be over.

 

[supracseduch]

Anyone else think we should implement a general nerf to Pantheons, especially the stronger ones? We shouldn't keep buffing the pantheons that are perceived as weak. I recognize the founding a religion is optional, unless your UA predisposes you to it. Nonetheless, even if I don't compete for founding one, the AI's have founded all available religions by 400 BC at the latest. Honestly, this is too early. Christianity and Islam, the now predominant religions, weren't even a thing back then. So imo the founding dates should be pushed further, either by increasing the faith required for a Prophet, or decreasing the faith yields from Pantheons. Doing the latter would also allow the "weaker" ones, like Goddess of Protection, to catch up when the relevant buildings have been unlocked. The tradeoff would be that the this pantheon takes a bit longer to come into play, but is more powerful than the now-nerfed other pantheons when it does. Thus, I call for a nerf-heavy approach rather than buff-heavy. Having said that, these ridiculous founding dates might be due to the AI's insane bonuses. In that case, I call for the removal of the AI's faith bonuses. This is so that the likes of Gandhi AI and Boudica AI have a more significant advantage over other leaders, giving them a much greater likelihood of founding a religion. (Since I don't like playing with a religionless India)

Now, if the removal of AI's faith bonuses would cause human players to go for a religion every single time, then it's a problem with the religion mechanic overall. If founding a religion is just too good to pass up on, nerf the founder beliefs. Otherwise, removing the AI's faith bonuses should be just fine.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Anyone else think we should implement a general nerf to Pantheons, especially the stronger ones? We shouldn't keep buffing the pantheons that are perceived as weak. I recognize the founding a religion is optional, unless your UA predisposes you to it. Nonetheless, even if I don't compete for founding one, the AI's have founded all available religions by 400 BC at the latest. Honestly, this is too early. Christianity and Islam, the now predominant religions, weren't even a thing back then. So imo the founding dates should be pushed further, either by increasing the faith required for a Prophet, or decreasing the faith yields from Pantheons. Doing the latter would also allow the "weaker" ones, like Goddess of Protection, to catch up when the relevant buildings have been unlocked. The tradeoff would be that the this pantheon takes a bit longer to come into play, but is more powerful than the now-nerfed other pantheons when it does. Thus, I call for a nerf-heavy approach rather than buff-heavy. Having said that, these ridiculous founding dates might be due to the AI's insane bonuses. In that case, I call for the removal of the AI's faith bonuses. This is so that the likes of Gandhi AI and Boudica AI have a more significant advantage over other leaders, giving them a much greater likelihood of founding a religion. (Since I don't like playing with a religionless India)

I think nerfing all the stronger pantheons would be harder than just buffing the few weaker ones but I agree faiths are founded a bit too early. Feels like the first Prophet cost should be increased by 25%-33%.

Now, if the removal of AI's faith bonuses would cause human players to go for a religion every single time, then it's a problem with the religion mechanic overall. If founding a religion is just too good to pass up on, nerf the founder beliefs. Otherwise, removing the AI's faith bonuses should be just fine.

What's the point of nerfing the founder beliefs when their bonuses are already almost unnoticeable anyway? That would do nothing.

The only good part of these is the building (that gives some heavy Holy Site bonuses if you take the right ones) which requires 20% of world under your religion and that is very hard to get on a large map.

 

[supracseduch]

What's the point of nerfing the founder beliefs when their bonuses are already almost unnoticeable anyway? That would do nothing.

The only good part of these is the building (that gives some heavy Holy Site bonuses if you take the right ones) which requires 20% of world under your religion and that is very hard to get on a large map.

Yes exactly, I don't find founder beliefs too powerful. I just assumed many people might, so I suggested a nerf just in case they do.