Liberty and Pyramids

[Magean]

So Liberty unlocks the Pyramids... When gameplay matters it make sense, since this wonder allows you to quickly develop the land of a wider empire, which is the point of Liberty.

But... OK, the game always plays with real history and all and that's fun, but here we get the EXACT opposite.

In my opinion, the Pyramids are a symbol of slavery, of massive forced labour... And ancient Egypt is a perfect example of a Tradition civilization (the Tradition tree's background is even Egyptian), if any.

The other Social policy trees unlock consistent Wonders - consistent with the real "flavour" of the tree. The Uffizi is a place of culture and art, Big Ben symbolizes a trade empire like Britain was...

However, Pyramids and liberty.

 

[GeoModder]

I wouldn't be so sure about the Egyptian pyramids being built by slaves if I were you...

 

[Louis XXIV]

A couple points.

One: This has been talked to death, so there won't be much new added here.
Two: Egypt didn't build the Pyramids through slaves. They were compensated. Generally, they were farmers who built the Pyramids when the Nile flooded and wasn't useful for farming at that time. Although Egypt, as a whole, is certainly more associated with Tradition (plus, the icon for building wonders faster is the Pyramids).
Third: For gameplay reasons, it makes sense. There's an argument that the Temple of Artemis would fit the theme of Liberty better and not be completely inappropriate (this would help preserve the historic flavor without unduly hurting strategy), but there's no doubt the Pyramids make the most sense.

I think that sums up all viewpoints.

 

[Magean]

Egypt didn't build the Pyramids through slaves. They were compensated. Generally, they were farmers who built the Pyramids when the Nile flooded and wasn't useful for farming at that time.

Aaaah, thank you, didn't know that. The cliché was probably too strong in my head. Standard schools and all.

 

[noto2]

Yeah, you're a little behind the times. It was generally assumed the pyramids were built by slave labour, and I mean the bible talks about slaves in Egypt so I'm sure most Christians and Jews just assumed that to be the case, however recent archaeological evidence (I think quite recent, like in the last decade) has strongly suggested they were built by paid labour. Back then most civilizations had slaves so I wouldn't be surprised if slaves had a hand in the building, but it seems most of the work was done by regular workers.

 

[seancolorado]

Except Wonders are the one feature in Civ where they don't have to be historically accurate. If it was true, then America would always be building Statue of Liberty, Canada would be in the game for CN Tower.

Where are people complaining that Borobudur, which requires you to be built in a holy city, wasn't actually built in a "holy city" in real life?

And let's be honest here, what does the Louvre really have to do with Exploration and the great competitive race to sail the high seas? And how is the Porcelain Tower the epitomizing wonder for Rationalism and major scientific advancements?

Non-issue imo. I'm all for immersion, but this is one instance where gameplay > flavor

 

[Louis XXIV]

Well, two things about the Louvre. One, it's gigantic. I think you need an explorer and sherpa to get through it

Second, the theming bonuses involve artifacts, so exploration makes some sense.

Also, the Louvre is a good example of historic theming. France historically had the Louvre and they benefit more for having it in the game because of the double bonus to themes.

 

[MikHolmes]

I think they did an amazing job getting as many things to tie in regarding history and mechanics as they did now. Sure it's a bit weird for the pyramids to be a symbol of liberty, but in a world where any civilization can build any wonder, it's not too difficult to believe. One could ask, how does building a bunch of triangles in the desert give you /more/ workers. You'd think a bunch of people would've died building it.

 

[pilot00]

The only historical evidence we have comes from two sources:

Herodotus the man credited as the father of history and the first one to write down actual history, stating in his writings that most were slaves.

And on the other side a discovery during the 1990s by Egypt's archaeology chief Zahi Hawass, (of whom I value his opinions and publishes a alot I might add) of a tomb complex speculated that it was a burial ground of workers that were not slaves.

The research to this day is ongoing and no conclusive evidence has been provided still.
There is nothing to say that slaves did not work alongside paid workers or what the ratio of slave to hired worker was. Especially in a caste system that had a slave labor caste. Specially trained workers were not uncommon at the time and were a prized resource, but slaves were not exempt by virtue of their presence.

We simply don't know yet the actual truth but most of the scientific community (as opposed to rumors and hearsay in tabloids) believes that the case was slaves working alongside a skilled workforce. But yet are not certain 100%.

Especially if you take into account the number of the Pyramids build (as of 2008 around to 120) the situation cannot be the same for them all since you have to take into account the following: Time period, Ruler, Political and Social beliefs of the time (though Egypt was relatively stable) and location of the construction taking place.

EDIT: Add to this the speculation of possible intervention of foreign artisans, architects and workers involved in the mix and this gets more complicated.

 

[BobDole]

It's a game. The end.

One: This has been talked to death, so there won't be much new added here.

Oh, and this.

 

[InsanelyApple]

The AI never seems to go Liberty in my games anymore. In the last game I played, I picked up the Pyramids in ~1300 AD.

 

[King_Course]

The phrase: Arbeit macht frei, comes to mind.

 

[I_qua_I]

This thread again? Weren't the weeks leading up to BNW's release already flooded with this discussion?

 

[pilot00]

The phrase: Arbeit macht frei, comes to mind.

Short mustache and all

 

[killmeplease]

i also think pyramids bonus is strange
they should consume workers not give

i think culture/tourism bonus would fit pyramids more.
say +6 culture, another +6 with archaeology and +25% tourism
or +6 culture and +2 GE points

 

[Adjuvant]

The term "slave" didn't carry the same connotation we ascribe modernly from the most recent 18th century examples. Slaves were more akin to how we'd view "indentured servitude", I guess. They were a lower class socially or foreigners, worked for the most part as laborers, weren't allowed to "leave", weren't allowed to hold office or be priests, and had no representation for their treatment or well-being.

Payment for working included modest lodging, meals and pay. Multiple generations of entire extended families lived "on site", like massive semi-permanent cities moving project to project. Occasionally if they were very obedient and productive they'd be allowed to be buried in the tombs, with the understanding they'd serve the pharaoh in the afterlife. This was the highest honor.

 

[killmeplease]

in my second BNW game i went liberty path
worker policy first, then hammer one then setler.
pyramids unlocked so i think should i build them or not?
i already have 2 workers, one built and one from policy. and there are 2 cities so far
pyramids would give another two what seems quite excessive at this stage of the game. besides that pyramids arent guaranteed as theres catherine adopted liberty too.
it seems its better to build settlers and work boats now, not pyramids?

what i want to say, if you go liberty, pyramids arent much needed, but they are a liberty wonder.
pyramids should belong to tradition i think, while liberty could be given temple of artemis

 

[feralminded]

I have gone liberty a few times now and I notice that I actually wind up with too many workers and semi-bankrupt myself supporting too many improvements (oops). I love the pyramids and indeed they are major boon but when combined with liberty my workers literally mow down the planet. It's nice to not have to worry about workers and to constantly have optimized land but still it takes some adaptation. In the end it does make liberty a bit easier and "fits" the social policy very well ... regardless of whether it is historically accurate or not. I just need to get used to these super-workers.

Also, indeed, the AI doesn't seem to favor liberty much. Wide empires are a tad trickier now (this is a good thing).

 

[Cymsdale]

I wish they would at least change the pyramid policy icon, it just makes the absurdity stick out more.

 

[Vidszhite]

I wouldn't be so sure about the Egyptian pyramids being built by slaves if I were you...

Yeah, this is a myth.