major lack of realism when discovering techs!

WuK

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 19, 2008
Messages
5
I have just spent a while searching through the forums and I was surprised that I could not find this suggestion anywhere! :confused:

I would love to see a game option that you can set in the lobby whereby instead of players/AI choosing to discover specific technologies they would choose to focus their research on a sliding scale of economic, military, science, religion/philosophy, art/culture, growth, industry etc etc and allocate points to prioritize each one.

These are just suggestions for 'research fields'. The idea could potentially be simpler than this (or more complex) with new research fields becoming available and older ones disappearing as they become irrelevant.

Then one might be surprised to learn that his/her society has made a breakthrough in the field of metallurgy and now has knowledge of basic iron working. A much more intricate tech tree would help to make this more implementable.

What do people here think about this idea? I think it would add an incredible amount of realism to the next civilization. If you think it's a worthy supposition then please post and bring it to people's attention!

WuK
 
It wouldn't be that hard to modify slightly, even doing the "blind research" like in Alpha Centauri. For each of the military, discovery, exploration, religion categories, you say if you want to research it. So if you want to do only religion techs, you specify only religion and you'll research those as much as you can.

That way, you prevent cases where you beeline for gunpowder, but haven't discovered something like Writing yet.

You can do it like the Great Person system. Each turn, you have 10 "science" points to assign. Once you get enough lightbulbs for a new tech, it does like for Great people, where you may have an 80% chance for a "religion" tech and a 20% chance for a military tech.
 
I have just spent a while searching through the forums and I was surprised that I could not find this suggestion anywhere! :confused:

I would love to see a game option that you can set in the lobby whereby instead of players/AI choosing to discover specific technologies they would choose to focus their research on a sliding scale of economic, military, science, religion/philosophy, art/culture, growth, industry etc etc and allocate points to prioritize each one.

These are just suggestions for 'research fields'. The idea could potentially be simpler than this (or more complex) with new research fields becoming available and older ones disappearing as they become irrelevant.

Then one might be surprised to learn that his/her society has made a breakthrough in the field of metallurgy and now has knowledge of basic iron working. A much more intricate tech tree would help to make this more implementable.

What do people here think about this idea? I think it would add an incredible amount of realism to the next civilization. If you think it's a worthy supposition then please post and bring it to people's attention!

WuK

There already is a mod(comp) that does this and blind research (optional). Check out the Mods section. (It should already be in the DL Database, as I've seen it announced.)
 
What do people here think about this idea? I think it would add an incredible amount of realism to the next civilization.

Yes it would. That's what's wrong with it. It's realism that weakens gameplay by making strategy less controllable.
 
Yes it would. That's what's wrong with it. It's realism that weakens gameplay by making strategy less controllable.

Thanks for your valuable and constructive reply. For me, realism in computer games and the extension of it by means of my imagination is what makes civilization so addictive. (i.e. I enjoy reading history books and I will usually have a game as a civilization that is relevant to what I've been reading straight after!)

I would not choose to play with blind research in a multiplayer game (hence why I suggested it would be good to have an option in the game lobby - not a mandatory change for all games), but anyway, it would make for a much more interesting storyline singleplayer imo. especially if implemented in the kind of detail i have suggested at the beginning of this thread.

will
 
Thanks for your valuable and constructive reply. For me, realism in computer games and the extension of it by means of my imagination is what makes civilization so addictive. (i.e. I enjoy reading history books and I will usually have a game as a civilization that is relevant to what I've been reading straight after!)

I would not choose to play with blind research in a multiplayer game (hence why I suggested it would be good to have an option in the game lobby - not a mandatory change for all games), but anyway, it would make for a much more interesting storyline singleplayer imo. especially if implemented in the kind of detail i have suggested at the beginning of this thread.

will


Well what makes you think they just said
"Let's try to discover Divine Right...."
instead of
"Let us see where a religious studies take us"?


It can't be proven how tech research happens.
Besides, that isn't really realistic. Some technologies were perfected by governments telling there scientists to pursue that 'craft'.
 
Well what makes you think they just said
"Let's try to discover Divine Right...."
instead of
"Let us see where a religious studies take us"?


It can't be proven how tech research happens.
Besides, that isn't really realistic. Some technologies were perfected by governments telling there scientists to pursue that 'craft'.[/QU]

This is surely true in a handful of more advanced cases, however, in the example you gave there is truly no argument that divine right was the culmination of a process of social and political evolution.. It did not occur due to people saying 'lets discover x' nor did it occurr due to people particularly focussing on religious studies. it's actually a political innovation.

I can not think of one example in history prior to the modern era (nor imagine in my wildest dreams of one in prehistory) where a certain group of people chose to research a particular technology. (certainly not a technology that is as huge and broad as the ones in civilization)

So anyway, that's why I think it would make for a cool storyline in single player games to be able to play the game in a less predictable fashion.

Cheers,

WuK
 
I fully support an idea like this. I have a few suggestions, though:

1.) This system has enough flexibility that it could be possible to research individual units, civics, buildings, etc. rather than technologies (which encompass several units, civics, buildings, etc.)

2.) Research should not be blind. Especially if you're implementing the above suggestion, civilizations would have enough foresight to know what they were researching towards. It should be possible to select all immediately available advances and have the sliders automatically adjust to let you research that advance most efficiently. This would help facilitate the (hopefully permanent) transition from the tech tree to the tech sliders in Civ 5.

3.) Sliders shouldn't appear and disappear. I'm sure it would be possible to come up with a set of generalized sliders that apply equally to each era. Ones I can think of are Military, Industry, Culture, Science, and Economy.

Sid, if you're reading this, MAKE THIS IDEA A REALITY IN CIV 5.
 
1.) This system has enough flexibility that it could be possible to research individual units, civics, buildings, etc. rather than technologies (which encompass several units, civics, buildings, etc.)

I am very strongly opposed to this.

2.) Research should not be blind.

I have no objection to blind reseach as an option, but I would never play with it.

It should be possible to select all immediately available advances and have the sliders automatically adjust to let you research that advance most efficiently.

Only if it's also possible to do other things with them if you have other priorities.

This would help facilitate the (hopefully permanent) transition from the tech tree to the tech sliders in Civ 5.

You want to be rid of the tech tree entirely ? Ick. What is that going to do to strategic tech trading ?

3.) Sliders shouldn't appear and disappear. I'm sure it would be possible to come up with a set of generalized sliders that apply equally to each era. Ones I can think of are Military, Industry, Culture, Science, and Economy.

So you have no means of representing acquiring qualitatively new sectors to your economy as the game progresses.

Sid, if you're reading this, MAKE THIS IDEA A REALITY IN CIV 5.

Sid, if you're reading this, I vote as strongly against the idea.
 
Actually what I would like to see is the removal of research points (at least until later in the game)

You should get points towards technologies based on what you do... if you are working a water tile you get points towards/fishing sailing... build+use warriors and you get points toward certain military technologies. Build temples and your points get shifted towards religious ones. Working mines gives you points towards Bronze Working. Working gold mines gives points towards currency. This would make your research far more connected to your overall society.

You would get some 'flexible' points and that would increase as you developed philosophers/scientists who come up with ideas about something as their primary job as opposed to coming up with ideas about doing something as a side effect of their primary job.
 
Actually what I would like to see is the removal of research points (at least until later in the game)

Whoa there. Being able to control what you research is part of the fun. If your current priorities and your desired research aren't lined up, it could lead to some serious strategic nightmares.
 
You should get points towards technologies based on what you do... if you are working a water tile you get points towards/fishing sailing... build+use warriors and you get points toward certain military technologies. Build temples and your points get shifted towards religious ones. Working mines gives you points towards Bronze Working. Working gold mines gives points towards currency. This would make your research far more connected to your overall society.

Why is this a plus ? It's a notable reduction in strategic flexibility.
 
No just a different type of strategic flexibility... you choose what to research by choosing what to do. If you want to research a seperate path you need to change what you are building working, etc. (although you would have some generic research... as well as contacts with other empires.)
 
No just a different type of strategic flexibility... you choose what to research by choosing what to do. If you want to research a seperate path you need to change what you are building working, etc. (although you would have some generic research... as well as contacts with other empires.)

I don't just mean strategic flexibility in what you research. I also mean strategic flexibility in terms of what you guide or lure the AI to research.
 
Three ideas.

1. Have it so you can "blind research" but still be able to use the normal method we have. Blind researching would allow you to place many points in different places.

2. The "Normal Method" would require ALL of your lightbulbs.

3. There should be different levels of each technology. For instance, gunpowder can be upgraded to smokeless powder to give a stealth upgrade.
 
I don't just mean strategic flexibility in what you research. I also mean strategic flexibility in terms of what you guide or lure the AI to research.

and you lure the AI to research things only by trading techs with them/taking the 'punch' out of a wonder/'first to bonus' tech.... well in this system you could also lure the AI to techs by encouraging them to change thier behavior, by changing how you deal with them besides just trading techs.
 
well in this system you could also lure the AI to techs by encouraging them to change thier behavior, by changing how you deal with them besides just trading techs.

How ?

I'm not seeing a way that arises naturally from your proposal. I'd love to see diplomatic options including agreements to research specific technologies, but I do not see how that flows clearly from your proposal.

I also dislike the notion that if you are a warmonger, this system forces you to get "military research" benefits more than any other, even if that's not necessarily what you want at the time. (I know I've argued for being the strongest warmonger getting you Militaristic trait bonuses, but that seems to me to be a different scale of thing entirely; it's global strategy rather than turn-by-turn tech-by-tech decisions.)
 
Well, I certainly haven't modded it myself yet, but I'm intending to work out a system that paces a sort of "world tech." Basically, during the early game (I would set a cutoff around Education or Printing Press) technology research is somewhat limited, somewhat shared between civs.

So, all civs would have to set the slider somewhere between 20% and 80%, the premise being ancient societies are not very effecient at allocating the general "commerce" resource - you can't spend everything on research, or everything into gold. This would also encourage more use of gold/espionage in the early game, also less "deficit" teching. Then, half of this slider (technically, half of total beakers produced in case you're getting them elsewhere...) would apply to the civilization's own, individual research. However, LIGHTBULBS go to ONLY your own research - for a balancing emphasis on specialists. Representation no longer gives +3 beakers, instead I would give Rep a maintenance bonus (I'd be modding other civics too, State Property would probably lose this bonus for something else). always thought the pyramids were broken - later in the game some tech will unlock specialists giving more beakers.

So, what about the rest of the beakers - well, they go into a something like a "world bank". More specifically, for every civ you have contact with, this research is split and applied to techs among all civs. World technology researches techs in a mostly pre-specified order (I think some variations game to game would be cool). For instance, the first "world tech" to be researched would be the wheel - but if a civ already has this it goes to the next on the list. If it was to vary game to game, the level of tech shoud be kept the same (So, in a different game, a random seed decides mining is the first world tech-then the wheel, and so on). Obviously world tech ends at Edu/PP whatever the limit is - after this a civ's own tech is entirely there own (BUT, they still get world tech from the OTHER civs, until these other civs obselete it as well). You could even move back the mercantilism civic for an early instance of this - a civ that purposely isolates itself to keep its own researches but not share in others.

How would this affect the game, though?- That's the main goal I am looking for. For one, tech in ancient times would be both more even and more guarded between players. If any civ has a massive lead in commerce, some of this will diffuse into world tech for other civs. Playing an isolated start has even more of an effect, because no contact with anyone else means world tech has no effect on you. However, specialists would likewise become more important (but not pyramidsSE broken) because bulbs are not shared with anyone - these early monopoly techs could be crucial. This system would also end a lot of problems that exist with WFYABTA because early backfill techs are achieved through world tech, rather than more trading. And remember, there is of course still incentive to have more research because you're never behind another civ (you still get half of your beakers towards whatever you want, some share of their beakers to you, and you and choose your own techpath) as worldtech will almost always be more backfill.

This would also require retooling of the AI (one of the main reasons I haven't modded it and other things yet, cause I'm just not ready to handle all that). But I think it would give an appropriate use for more stinginess/monopolizing on early trades, also, achieving a certain tech advantage would be even more effective if you're the only one with it. I would also be sure to allow great people to have a choice between techs to bulb (if at all reasonable) instead of having to bulb a certain tech, to allow this flexibility. And again, this concept of "world tech" allows more focus on espionage (stealing away monopoly techs) and other uses of gold (I think some things on the upgrade/pay rush system should be modded too.)

Finally, to respond to some of the other suggestions, I don't like blind research, and research for a very specific purpose is lost in civ. For instance, many scenarios do have a use for researches like "upgrade gunpowder weapons" but for the general civ game, you'd have to massively slow it down for these techs to be used. In various mods/scenarios they make more sense, but the progression through the tech tree has to be emphasized in the main game. The only exception is I think is diversifying final SpaceShip parts that each have their own, future tech (The tech only allows building a special part - say, researching solar sail allows this part which speeds up your ship, but that's all it does).
 
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