Making the Cavalary Tech-Path more interesting

[Frozen-Vomit]

I have read in one of the other threads that a player (can't remember his name) was complaining that he never used any techs from the cavalary tech branch because he classified himself as "builder".

I thought about this, mainly because I also most of the times don't use those techs until I discovered everything else and just need extra t4 units for late game conquest (exept when playing Hippus of course).

The problem I have with it is not that the tech path is militaristic but that it is nothing else. All the other branches (especially religion, magic and melee) can also be used for units but offer so much more. Buildings, Wonders, Civics ect., ect...

So some suggestions to make this tech path more versatile:

Buildings

- Post Office:
+1 Trade Route
+25% Distance to Palace maintainance.

- Caravan Post(?): (with Domasticate Camels)
Requires Oasis in fat cross
+3 per Desert tile in City

Wonders

- Ivory Palace: (with Domasticate Elephants)
Requires Ivory
Starts a golden age
Reduces maintainance in nearby cities.

- Silk Route: (with Domasticate Camels)
+2 Trade Routes per Silk connected to the city

Units

I suggest a new units branch: Scout -> Explorerer -> Conqistador
Require Horses and get better things from goddie huts, but don't get the bonus vs. animals. Sort of like ligth Cavalary (weaker than normal mounted units but stronger than the normal recon units...)

To make them more usefull I would remove mobility II from not-mounted scouts (the are to fat now anyway )

Civics

- Feudal Rule (Government. With Armored Cavalary)
+10%
+25% number of cities maintainance

(Maybe make feudalism a requirement for armored cavalary)

Rituals

- Call of the Steppe
Gives the player that builds it the raider trait.


edit: I know most of these ideas are not very innovative. It's just that something should be there and I posted a few things that came to my mind...

 

[TheBoatman]

- Post Office:
+1 Trade Route
+25% Distance to Palace maintainance.

Did you mean -25% Distance to Palace maintainance?

Your suggestions are very interesting, but I think the caravan post is too overpowered. (+3 commerce is what a village gives)

 

[Frozen-Vomit]

No, I meant it this way... Kind of that the postal service gets more and more expensive the farer from the capital.

Oasis are not that common - this would encourage the players to have deserts around and not always cast spring on all desert tiles.

 

[BCalchet]

The problem I have with it is not that the tech path is militaristic but that it is nothing else. All the other branches (especially religion, magic and melee) can also be used for units but offer so much more. Buildings, Wonders, Civics ect., ect...

I agree completely. The path is just screaming for some non-military applications.

Buildings

- Post Office:
+1 Trade Route
+25% Distance to Palace maintainance.

- Caravan Post(?): (with Domasticate Camels)
Requires Oasis in fat cross
+3 Commerce per Desert tile in City

The post office looks fine - I'm thinking Stirrups would be a balanced place to put it at.

The Caravan Post would likely make already rich floodplains/town cities just plain overpowered, so... perhaps +5% and +1 for the Incence, Silk and Ivory resources?
Sort of like the Kuriorate special buildings except available to everyone and requiring that oasis?

Wonders

- Ivory Palace: (with Domasticate Elephants)
Requires Ivory
Starts a golden age
Reduces maintainance in nearby cities.

- Silk Route: (with Domasticate Camels)
+2 Trade Routes per Silk connected to the city

The palace feels a bit bland - there are already several wonders that create fake capitals. How about, say...

- Ivory Tower +4 +1 (with Domesticate Elephants)
Requires Ivory
+4 for each scientist. (Empire-wide)
-1 for each scientist. (Empire-wide)
-1 for each scientist. (Empire-wide)
2 free scientists in building city.


The Silk Route is interesting, though - not many benefits for having many of the same resource, as is.


(As for the rest of the post, I can't come up with any good comments, so I'm leaving that.)

 

[QES]

I have read in one of the other threads that a player (can't remember his name) was complaining that he never used any techs from the cavalary tech branch because he classified himself as "builder".

I thought about this, mainly because I also most of the times don't use those techs until I discovered everything else and just need extra t4 units for late game conquest (exept when playing Hippus of course).

The problem I have with it is not that the tech path is militaristic but that it is nothing else. All the other branches (especially religion, magic and melee) can also be used for units but offer so much more. Buildings, Wonders, Civics ect., ect...

Sounds good and i agree.

So some suggestions to make this tech path more versatile:

Buildings

- Post Office:
+1 Trade Route
+25% Distance to Palace maintainance.

This would never be built, as maintenance easily outstrips trade route benefits. Especially if mercantilism is chosen, instead of distance, maybe +1 Trade routes -1 gold from mines. In that city.

- Caravan Post(?): (with Domasticate Camels)
Requires Oasis in fat cross
+3 per Desert tile in City

Careful with this, desert tiles are specifically about "not being useful" and a barrier more than a productive tile. Though maybe the caravan post can give oasis extra gold, but not all desert tiles.

Wonders

- Ivory Palace: (with Domasticate Elephants)
Requires Ivory
Starts a golden age
Reduces maintainance in nearby cities.

- Silk Route: (with Domasticate Camels)
+2 Trade Routes per Silk connected to the city

I like this silk route idea. But perhaps it should come sooner in the game? Mostly I say this because for it to be "worth it" or at all impacting, it would have to involve a period where the whole of the world was not yet discovered. Etc.

Units

I suggest a new units branch: Scout -> Explorerer -> Conqistador
Require Horses and get better things from goddie huts, but don't get the bonus vs. animals. Sort of like ligth Cavalary (weaker than normal mounted units but stronger than the normal recon units...)

To make them more usefull I would remove mobility II from not-mounted scouts (the are to fat now anyway )

Explorer units cover this ground already, promotions make all the difference. However, making a Cavalry Recon unit is a good idea. But i think it should be an offshoot OF the Recon line, not seperate from it.

Civics

- Feudal Rule (Government. With Armored Cavalary)
+10%
+25% number of cities maintainance

(Maybe make feudalism a requirement for armored cavalary)

Feudalism is already in the game as labor civc (which makes more senes anyway) Vassalage is really what your talking about. And feudalism/vassalage is actually more like city-states. Each lord controls his region independantly. At the behest of a king. It does not increase maintenance, it decreases it. Long vast empires like rome were high maintenance, feudal lords and such were low. Also economies were HURT during the feudal era, not helped - this is because of the realative independance and lack of trade. So basically its the opposite of what you suggested here.

Rituals

- Call of the Steppe
Gives the player that builds it the raider trait.


edit: I know most of these ideas are not very innovative. It's just that something should be there and I posted a few things that came to my mind...

I dont really like the idea of anything giving "traits" becuase it looses the flavor of chosing a civ (for trait reasons) in the first place.
-Qes

 

[Keldan]

I agree, horse technologies is useless if you don't want to use cavalry and fast move tactics.

Having a market using ivory, incence and silk is fine too, because ivory are not used by buildings (and only for 1 national unit), silk just by Kuriotate's tailor and incence only by temple.

And making the desert useful, at least for the desert civ (Malakim ?) could be a great thing. There are a wood civ (losjo... elfe ), a hill civ (Khazad) and sea people (Lanun), so it will be fun to have desert, toundra and jungle civ.

 

[TheBoatman]

No, I meant it this way... Kind of that the postal service gets more and more expensive the farer from the capital.

Oasis are not that common - this would encourage the players to have deserts around and not always cast spring on all desert tiles.

The post expenses are usually paid for by mailers, who gain benefits from fast communication. Govermental orders have to be delivered nevertheless. Transferring the +25% trade routes yields from Inn to Post office would make more sense.

Domesticated camels come too late for this. Most people will already have elementalism, arcane lore and a lot of time to develop plains towns (1f 4c 1p) or plains farms (3f 1p + a half of a specialist) from deserts.

 

[Frozen-Vomit]

Feudalism is already in the game as labor civc (which makes more senes anyway) Vassalage is really what your talking about. And feudalism/vassalage is actually more like city-states. Each lord controls his region independantly. At the behest of a king. It does not increase maintenance, it decreases it. Long vast empires like rome were high maintenance, feudal lords and such were low. Also economies were HURT during the feudal era, not helped - this is because of the realative independance and lack of trade. So basically its the opposite of what you suggested here.
-Qes

Ok then: Another shot:

Civics

Knightdom (Economy. Armored Cavalery)

+1 :happiness: for walls
+1 :happiness:, +25% for castles

 

[QES]

Ok then: Another shot:

Civics

Knightdom (Economy. Armored Cavalery)

+1 :happiness: for walls
+1 :happiness:, +25% for castles

25% seems a bit high, but i do like a walls/castles emphasis. Maybe give castles culture boons instead. 20% Culture bonus for castles (Spreading their influence over the land)

Also, this was discussed in a previous thread about a civic section called "Military Doctrine" But i think that this could benefit from the Stalwart Defenses Idea we discussed.

Knightdom/Vassalage: (Military. Armored Cavalry) <High Upkeep>
-20% Maintenance for distance from capital.
+1 Happiness For castles, 20% culture from castles.
+25% Defence in cottages (Local defenses of knights), +50% In villages (Local defences of Nobles) +75% defence in Towns (Defences of Lords).

It would be very costly to try to march through a civilzation with those options, exspecially with a lot of towns around.

 

[Grey Fox]

- Call of the Steppe
Gives the player that builds it the raider trait.

It shouldnt give a trait, thats unfair to the civs with that trait. Instead, it could increase the amount you get from Pillaging (making Raiders get even more, and other civs come on Par with their pillage amount or so).

 

[Xuenay]

In the other thread, I suggested the following additions:

Domesticate Camels: A free Great Merchant for first discoverer
Large Animal Stables: +1 trade route.

Also, the cavalry techs could boost some existing civics. Maybe Agriculture could give +1 food in every city once the later cavalry techs are invented? (Symbolizing bigger and stronger animals being put to work on the fields - though this leaves open the question of why Summoning doesn't provide the bonus. Alternatively the Large Animal Stables could also be given a +1 food bonus themselves.) They could also boost Consumption, City-States or Foreign Trade.

 

[vorshlumpf]

The ideas look good. I don't have feedback on them, I just wanted to chime in and agree about the lackluster horsie tech path. I have yet to play a game where I deliberately take those techs.

- Niilo

 

[Maniac]

I have read in one of the other threads that a player (can't remember his name) was complaining that he never used any techs from the cavalary tech branch because he classified himself as "builder".

Basically I said that I never chose the cavalry branch because most other military branches also offer builder advantages along the way. This is the same whether you're playing a builder or warmonger.

Anyway, I'm glad you started this thread.

Buildings

- Post Office:
+1 Trade Route
+25% Distance to Palace maintainance.

to the basic idea. As others said though, I'd make this building reduce distance maintenance. Would create good synergy with the City States civic, and thus a nice new possible strategy.

Also another concern, personally I find there are way too many ways to get extra trade routes in FfH. Though this may be because I've happened to build the Great Lighthouse in every game I played until now. But in any case, personally I'm always stuck with a bunch of 1 commerce trade routes as a result. So perhaps instead of adding yet another trade route, perhaps give it increase trade route yield instead? Or if a trade route is added by this building, remove the extra trade route you get for free with the Trade tech. That tech already gives more than enough ways to get new trade routes as is.

To make them more usefull I would remove mobility II from not-mounted scouts (the are to fat now anyway )

And/or perhaps make Mobility I or II only available with Horseback Riding? The Mobility are more or less the most often used by me, so that would be a strong incentive to research Horseback Riding for me. And once you've researched the now useless tech of Horseback Riding, the investment to research further along that branch to tier3 units and further is smaller.

Civics

Perhaps make Aristocracy available with Horseback Riding? And reduce its value: get 3 instead of 2 extra commerce per farm. I don't know about you guys, but I never use the Aristocracy civic currently.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Good ideas here. I must confess that I don't research the cavalry line until future techs are available. Economic benefits would be very fitting. Just remember that we don't want it to interfere with the trade line, either. Perhaps making some either/or dependencies between the two lines would be useful.

 

[QES]

Thoughts on Making use of Cavalry More interesting, in empire as well as tactics:

Introduce the "charge" promotion and buildings that give charge for free-
Cavarly only, appears at the end of the Withdraw line.
If a unit with charge attacks another unit (only on attack) and wins the first round of combat, the OTHER unit immediately moves out of the square it was in and combat is over. (This would represent "breaking the lines") Note that while the defender is damaged, neither die. In this it would be a useful way to A) take cities, and B) create battlefield dynamics. Since this does not work on defence, there is nothing to prevent the moved unit to attack and reclaim its position.

Restrict the exploration Promtions that allow for faster movement to cavalry and recon units (no more fast warriors).

***
Cavalry specizlization and Sea speciazlization should be possible tactical motives, Not sure how to make cavalry work, but i do have an idea on the sea. It is to lengthen and strengthen both the Sea Unit line as a whole. There could be more options than Gally -> Queen. I say have a few options of ships during each teir.

Note that none of these are particularly UU.

Galley, Longboat, and Barge T1 (all restricted to coastal waters)
Galley is your average ship as it is now.
A longboat might be a special attack vessel that only funcitons as such.
A Barge would function as a trading vessel, it would have a minor effect like the great merchant.

Caravel, Skiff and Sloop T2
Caravel would be a long distance ship as it is now.
Skiff would be a very fast ship but still be limited to coastal waters.
Sloop would be a Slow (1 move?) vessel that could fight better and carry more Than a Galley

Galleon, Privateer, Flute, Carrack, and Frigate T3
Galleon would be as it is now.
Privateer would be as it is now.
Flute would be a ship that functioned as a higher level barge, a function like the Great Merchant but of course less than the great merchant, but more than the barge.
Carrack would be a VERY slow Military Ship, and have virtually no carrying capasity.
Frigate would be a very fast Military Ship with no carrying capasity.

Queen of the Line, Corvette, Corsair, and Dreadnaught T4
Queen of the Line would be as it is now.
The Corvette would be like a Queen, but no carrying capasity, and A Large amount of First strike promotions for free.
The Corsair would be like a Queen, but no carrying capasity and a large withdrawl rate for free.
The Dreadnaught would Be slow, tubby, but nigh unstoppable in water. It would have a small carrying capasity (Tank on water)

Aslo One new water sphere spell:
Sea Fortress. Cyrstalization of water creates a immoble unit in the water, str 10? That would function like Choking vines on land. Limit one per caster able to cast it. Has VERY large carrying capasity 10? So that it could be a little spot in the sea for mages to do their damage. Muahaha?

-Qes

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Could also tie some promotions onto the cavalry line. Commando, perhaps could require stirrups or something, not for raiders to start with, of course, but for others to be promoted to.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Some of these suggestions might also be well paired with the archery tree.

 

[Gamestation]

Railroad-like improvement enabled! Who never thought it would be a good idea to put some weapons into a horse drawn transport so that they can get to where they need to faster?

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Hm, how about a noncombat land unit with a high movement (3 or 4), that can carry two or three other units?

 

[eerr]

Hm, how about a noncombat land unit with a high movement (3 or 4), that can carry two or three other units?

you can do that with the trojan horse assuming it still gets mobility promotions....

how about we just put in a tier 3 unit that can move in shore and carry other units
make sure the comp would always build these instead of triermines if it could