Making the jump from Prince to King

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by oPunchDrunko, Jun 6, 2013.

  1. pilot00

    pilot00 King

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    Same thing, either or order or auto and you are set for conquest, freedom for culture/science.

    On king you still get a flat +9 happiness too. But the AI is challenging to some degree (at least it forces me to go into wars to win).
     
  2. Unresolved

    Unresolved King

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    Freedom is certainly not for science. Perhaps OCC science, but I don't play that. Order for science/domination/diplomacy, Freedom for culture. Autocracy needs a buff to compete with the Order opener for domination.
     
  3. pilot00

    pilot00 King

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    I am used to using a buttload of specialists. Order with 4 cities is a waste of the tree. My science is always pop growth dependent, so decreasing food consumption is a priority. Plus it increases the output of specialists.
     
  4. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    Nothing in Freedom (or Order, for that matter) increases the output of specialists. Freedom does help with specialist food and unhappiness, but not yield per se.

    Anyway, I'm a firm believer in actual testing. Testing the two strategies on different maps will yield noisy/inconclusive results, so try this in your next game. Create a save when you are about to select your first Industrial Era policy. Play through once with your preferred Freedom strategy, beelining for the finisher. Then reload the save and play through taking just the Order opener and Planned Economy, applying "extra" policies as you see fit (finish Rationalism more quickly, pick up Aesthetics in Patronage, beeline to Communism, whatever). I would be curious which one yields a faster finish for you from the same baseline.
     
  5. pilot00

    pilot00 King

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    Ahem... I did say that I do it to free food, therefore In essence the city grows faster (therefore more science output) while the specialists slots are filled, with rationalism for me its a no brainer so they provide (more) science too. I did express it wrong though you are correct. I should have said: It allows for increased use of specialists.So yes indirectly Freedom (and with Rationalism into the mix) can increase science output by virtue of growth. And it is not a marginal output either.

    Also order helps science with the flat 25% increase per factory (planed economy).
    And yes testing is the way to go.
     
  6. Unresolved

    Unresolved King

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    Freedom is a great tree...if you have enough turns to utilize its finisher. For quick strategies, only culture games have enough time to fully utilize Freedom. By the time you can finish Freedom in a science game, you've got maybe 20-30 turns before the game is over. And that's if you can even finish Rationalism in the same game. If finishing Freedom costs you the Rationalism finisher, that's a good 14-16 turns of science lost. For my games, if I were to really push culture, I could see myself getting full Tradition, 2 in Rationalism, and full Freedom by turn 200 at the very earliest. Probably closer to 210 or 220. That gives me around 25 turns before the game is over while needing 3 more policies to finish Rationalism. You could cut turns off that time by building all the culture wonders, but then you're probably sacrificing some other part of your game.
     
  7. pilot00

    pilot00 King

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    I usually play at epic speed and always delay victory of any type for the last possible moment.

    At epic I can pull off science and/or culture (usually those two come hand to hand in my games) around turn 400-450 or so if I feel 'rushing things'. Don't know how it translates to standard.

    As I said I don't rely on the finisher when I use it (unless I want the cultural output that is) because most of my games are science disguised as 'insert-victory type'. That said I strive for the largest amount of food (food = science) to grow the cities and support as many specialists through the use of rationalism. By the time my empire reaches the renaissance it becomes a small Korea if I might describe it that way. Therefore all I need from freedom is the right polices if culture doesn't allow for more. Finishing rationalism is a given, though when is a big discussion. It depends on circumstance: ETC if I desperately need a wonder (etc Sydney opera or UN) Ill wait till I get the shot to unlock those. If I am at war Ill try and time the finisher to give access to some powerful units to help me stem the tide and retaliate or go atomic bombs.

    Rationalism's finisher has turned games for me when timed right and as a result is a high priority. But there have been games where I completed the right branch of freedom and then decided to spend the finisher in Ratio. Interesting enough one of my quickest victories came from cherry picking policies from various trees and finishing only tradition.
     
  8. Unresolved

    Unresolved King

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    400-450 on epic would roughly translate to 267-300 turns on standard. Probably a little lower since GS bulbs are better on standard than epic.

    But since you're debating whether or not X is better than Y, you're going for the best turn time. And when you do that, you're trying to get the lowest finish time, hence the least amount of time for Freedom to function. Without getting the Sistine Chapel or planting Great Artists(which would be sub-optimal in a SV), I really don't see finishing Tradition/Liberty, Rationalism, and Freedom in one game. And certainly not in a time frame where you would get the Freedom finisher early enough to make a noticeable difference. Not to mention the fact that you would likely have wasted a policy or two in Patronage because of SP timing.

    If you were debating which is better for a role-playing experience, then nothing I say above holds.
     
  9. pilot00

    pilot00 King

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    Erhm...I said that I almost always delay my victories didn't I? Also I am not sure I understand you completely: I am saying that freedom aids in science (not victory-science,but beakers per turn) if you have 4-5 cities and have the infrastructure to produce huge pops in said cities. Then you use freedom to cut down food consumption, essentially making your specialists as semi-free commodity and you gain two more sources of science: More pop (due to the cut down costs of the specialists) and the specialists themselves (through rationalism).

    If I have a large sprawling empire I rarely can find a use for freedom since I will keep pop at head (unhappiness problems) and I will use the factory boost to gain beakers instead.

    Oh and just to clarify I am not debating X vs Y in a sterile environment, but X vs Y under certain conditions: Large vs Small empires.
     
  10. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    This bit of the thread is reflective of a common debate (not proposing to re-open it, by the way) among those who want/try to zip through their games in the most efficient fashion (i.e., quickest path from 4000 BC to victory) and the many, many others who want to revel in the game, stretching it out, fully developing their empires, etc. And I guess there's a third group (maybe separate from the first two, maybe not) that wants to play WITH the game, to see how it works and what you can make it do (both base game and with mods and scenarios).

    All are valid and all can be great fun, but it can be confusing when strategies that are intended to facilitate stretching out the game, making it richer, more immersive, etc. are discussed interchangeably with those intended to facilitate brutally efficient game play. Not saying they shouldn't be discussed concurrently, but clarity about what result the suggested strategy is intended to accomplish/facilitate is always helpful.

    Candidly, in my personal play I find myself from time to time in any of these three "camps." I always enjoy unpacking the game, experimenting with strategies, and figuring out how to fine-tune my game play, but other times I just want to mess around. The other night I fired up a huge Emperor game larded with every silly OP wonder mod I could find in the Steam Workshop just to see how large/rich I could make my empire. I dominated my way to take every city on the map (pangaea), leaving Carthage with one tiny city hemmed in with three citadels (only workable tiles were the city center, one mine and some sea tiles -- take that Dido!). But, rather than finishing her off and moving on to a new game, I spammed out cities to fill the map, and churned out wonder after wonder, ending up with 98 cities, over 1700 happiness, 12,000 gpt, 30,000 bpt and 10,000 cpt (when I finished 6 policy trees, I nuked Dido into the Stone Age and walked a scout into her cap). Is that in any way reflective of efficient, crisp play? Hell, no -- not a model for anything except how to have some fun while waiting for BNW. (Took Order, by the way, not Freedom - just sayin'.)
     
  11. smileyy90210

    smileyy90210 Chieftain

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    Great way to phrase it :)
     
  12. Unresolved

    Unresolved King

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    400-450 on epic doesn't seem like throttling your win to me :p. Many players struggle to achieve those times if translated to standard speed.

    May I ask what turn you finish Freedom on and how many GS you plant? It may be a product of the game speed and not empire size because the slower the speed, the more GS you plant and the less you bulb. Firaxis did a poor job translating GS values across the different speeds.
     
  13. pilot00

    pilot00 King

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    I don't consider myself to be an expert player mind you. Also since we are discussing this I should also say that I play at king. My science planting depends on weather I can build a strong faith (in other words what CiV I rolled through random selection and whether Boudicca and Selassie are in the game and their choices :p) generation and my policies (though I almost 99.99% of the time I am adopting rationalism).
    By the industrial usually I am getting 3-4 GS naturally, and those I plant. The rest (either through generation or bought through faith) are kept in reserve (every time I can afford it I buy one, if I don't need a prophet).Then they are either bulbed as needed (emergency teching to get some important units for example if at a protracted war or planning one :D) or kept till the information/atomic to form an orgy of bulbing. That will usually create a technological chasm between me and an opponent.

    As I said I don't always choose freedom. Sometimes I go to order if I build numerous cities or if my puppets exceed 15 or so. Also I havent kept a mental note sorry. But assuming that by turn 300-something I have finished rationalism, then I would say ending the 300s to entering 400turn I start it, give or take i finish it around the end of 400. But as I said this all speculation. You cant have hard numbers since culture is defendant on many factors. 3 Cultural CS will cut those numbers by 1/3 if I have the convenience of having them permanent allied.

    Sorry for being so vogue on the turns but it never occurred to me to keep notes about turns/policies :D
    I only start to notice the turn counter in two phases: Start till 100ish turn because I MUST have the NC by then and when I enter the 1900s(game date) because by then I know I have to rush things to stop the 'dreams' of the AI having a chance to win. And finally the wining turn. Last one was a conquest 567 I think. But scientifically I blew it, almost lost to a science vic to William. Had to wipe him off completely in a rush.

    EDIT: If I get a day off in the coming week and I still remember it (my brain is fried right now) I promise to play a game and post a turn counter.
     
  14. Unresolved

    Unresolved King

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    I may have done the math wrong(since I don't generally do the math for this game), but if you have 4 GS, finishing freedom will grant you an additional 48 bpt before modifiers. If you city has the NC, university, research lab, and the observatory, that would be an additional 144 bpt. In my last game with 5 cities(2 annexed capitals + my 3 cities), I calculated that I got over 100 bpt from the factory bonus alone. If I had more cities, presumably the bonus would have been even higher.

    That's without considering the actual bonuses in the Freedom and Order trees. You could get the happiness/food/gold boosts from Freedom or the factory production/happiness boost from Order while also getting Scholasticism from the Patronage tree. And you would get the factory bonus before you got the Freedom finisher, resulting in another 30 turns of increased science by going Order.

    One thing to keep in mind is that my 100+ bpt from factories came from a game where I posted a 229 SV. My science was quite high in that game and not representative of every game I play. I probably average 90 bpt from factories in a normal T250 SV.

    Edited for math corrections
     
  15. pilot00

    pilot00 King

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    I never managed to get such times on standard speed :D
    I understand that you calculate the net bonus, not the tile bonus of the academy (in other words multiplied by buildings in the city), yes then you can possibly reach such numbers I assume (not good at math either :D)

    To me the hole order vs freedom thing in regards to science can be answered one way:

    Do you have a large empire (15+ cities and/or puppets) but don't want to go on a domination spread? Order.

    Do you have a smallish empire (4-5 cities and no more than 5-6 puppets)supported by specialists and your science is based on growth? Freedom.
     
  16. Unresolved

    Unresolved King

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    Even for a small empire, I still believe Order is better. Let's do some turn-by-turn calculations assuming that the Order bonus is 100 bpt and the Freedom bonus is 150 bpt. 1 social policy per 10 turns(average CV culture rate). 8 GS stored to bulb after research labs. Turn 250 victory.

    If you can get Planned Economy at turn 180(I have never gotten it that early, but with better culture I suppose you could), then you would get 7000 bpt from the 70 turns and 6400 beakers from the 8 bulbs. That's a total of 13,400 beakers.

    If you finish Freedom at turn 210(3 more policies than Planned Economy), then you'd get 6000 beakers from the 40 turns and 9600 beakers from the 8 bulbs. That's a total of 15,600 beakers.

    If you finish Planned Economy and Scholasticism at turn 220(1 more policy than Freedom), then you would get the 13,400 beakers from finishing PE at turn 180, 1500 beakers from finishing Scholasticism with 30 turns to go(assuming it gives 50 bpt. No idea what it gives, could use some real values), and another 3200 beakers from the 8 bulbs. That's a total of 18,100 beakers.

    Now personally, I've never done better than full Tradition, full Rationalism, Planned Economy, and Aesthetics. But I assume that with enough culture pushing, these turn times could be achievable. Obviously the slower your culture, the less impact Freedom will have on your finish time. You could get an additional 13,400 beakers by getting 14 policies(including openers), 15,600 beaker by getting 18 policies, or 18,100 beakers by getting 19 policies. If you can't open Rationalism immediately after finishing Tradition/Liberty in either the Planned Economy or Freedom path, then you would need an additional policy for both of them.

    If I made any math mistakes, please let me know :). And some comment on how many bpt Scholasticism gives would be appreciated. I have only gotten it a few times and I'm basing my values off of a vague memory.
     
  17. Digary

    Digary Chieftain

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    Made this jump recently myself.

    First game was a science victory with Pacal in turn 380. Was held up a lot my a never ending war with Japan but got the victory so I was happy.

    Second game as China, I fell victim to Atilla and his battering ram rush of doom. Lesson learnt.

    In my third king game now. Playing as China going for a domination. 2 civs wiped out so far. Chu ko nu are so incredible it feels like cheating.

    Someone correct me if i'm wrong, but the first 100 turns/ surviving the first DOW while you build a decent military, expand and develop infrastructure seems to be the hardest part. After that it just seems to fall into place?
     
  18. Unresolved

    Unresolved King

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    Correct. The first 100 turns are definitely the most crucial in the game. If you survive those with a decent infrastructure/science, you're set up for the rest of the game.
     
  19. Bfoxius

    Bfoxius Chieftain

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    Heh, King is way more fun because you don't get a major lead in science without trying, and have nothing that your spies do except hang out around your cities and drink coffee.
     
  20. pilot00

    pilot00 King

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    I think your estimates are correct, however in the case of freedom the bonus is sublime and you need to calculate other things as well. First of all freedom as I said as far as science is concerned, doesn't give bonus beakers (directly). It reduces the food percentages of the science producing specialists (all of the if you have rationalism, which you should) and double the great person tile output. That means more food to grow the cities, more pop = more science and your 4 or so academies become 8. In other words you bet on long term gain (you will grow the city by at least 5 or 6 pop, The largest I had ever done was 53ish I think). In the long run I think thats more than 25% but I cant say I am good at calculus. I also almost never take patronage except with the civs that need it, or when surrounded by city states and need a cultural victory. My social policy plan is this in a science game: Tradition, (if I play a save polices game) Rationalism, and either Order or Freedom, then anything goes depending on the game and the map layout. If I have social policy saving off, I either stagnate my culture as far as I can and beeline to the renaissance asap, or if I don't time it right, I choose commerce and go right side till rationalism (at some point here Ill build the Oracle if I can). Then follow rationalism, Freedom/Order.

    More or less, I have strained myself in my recent games to keep on par in science with certain AIs. Adolphus and William for some reason seem to be science freaks. Patchachuti seems capable of been a strong contender as well. But in my two recent games, the first two Gentlemen, had been breathing too close to my ear and I was thanking God that the AI doesn't know about tactics. Almost lost to William, I took his last city some turns before he launched.

    Truth be told though, I had the last piece of my own ship ready about 50 or so turns before him but I wanted to win a domination (first time eva too yay!)
     

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