Man-at-Arms has no cultural variations

[Uberfrog]

It's a bit disappointing, but this is fortunately one of the areas where mods can deliver incredible value to a game.

I would love to see cultural variants of all units throughout the whole span of the game (come on, Mayan/Aztec giant death robots!), but I can also understand that this is a fairly minor thing that carries with it a pretty large expense for the developer.

Indeed! In fact one of the reasons I joined this forum in the first place was to hunt for cultural diversity mods for Civ 4!

Vanilla Civ 6 uses, I think, culturally-specific details such as helmets, hairstyles, weapons, shields, etc to show diversity in its ancient units. This seems a lot less labour intensive than bespoke unit models. Unfortunately few of the units added in the subsequent expansions really took advantage of this. Coursers and Skirmishers at least use these details, and siege units repurpose unit graphics from melee units.

But Pike and Shot and Cuirassier units, as well as these new melee units just have the one model with no cultural details.

 

[McKeu]

I mean... how many turns are most of us gonna keep man-at-arms to really make it worth to invest in the time to make cultural appropriate versions of it.
I play marathon only, so I have to look at them longer. Does it bother me? Not the slightest.

 

[FinalDoomsday]

It's a bit disappointing, but this is fortunately one of the areas where mods can deliver incredible value to a game.

I would love to see cultural variants of all units throughout the whole span of the game (come on, Mayan/Aztec giant death robots!), but I can also understand that this is a fairly minor thing that carries with it a pretty large expense for the developer.

Yes theres some nice mods out there but sadly I have yet to find one that is purely visual all the ones i've seen add new units and change gameplay significantly when I'm just after a cosmetic update for the units already in game.

Worth nothing that Amplitudes Humankind has a lot of cultural variety already going further than just some broad cultural groups to having Korean handgunners look different to Japanese ones. Norse 'Great Swordsmen' actually wielding two handed axes and with Viking helmets and clothing.

 

[pkaem]

Maybe skins come later? Or will be modable? I don't care if they wear pants or dresses, for now I'll accept them as abstract representation of medival heavy infantry which make me no more cry when my swordsman spots the first crossbow.

 

[jasper]

There is plenty of references that could be used for reneissance units. Theres no reason to give a civ like Japan for example a European style musketeer when we have tons of references for actual japanese troops with firearms that don't look European, or just go play Shogun 2.

I'm not talking about ships, yes a battleship is unlikely to have vast variations in design but theres still differences in uniforms up to world war 2 and beyond.

As for what Aztecs might look like well I already showed Rise of Nations but there is also this.

Yes its a DLC and paradox's model for DLC is controversial but I'm using it as an example of what a reneissance or post reneissance unit might look like. I don't expect unique models for every civ but even some broad cultural groups like Mesoamerican, East Asian, Sub-Saharan would be something.

Yes, and what im getting at is that those aztect models are fake even for aztecs. Do those countries even stylize their military like that today? Maybe for parades, maybe.

If people have a cultural dog bone all the time then stick to civ buildings and civ bonuses. Its more real and believable.

Native american civs dont need eagle feathers on their fighter jets anymore than aztec foot soldiers need bright multicolored uniforms just for the hek of it. This sounds more like a westerner trying to force round pegs into aztec holes (yes that sounds bad but im sticking with it).

 

[FinalDoomsday]

Yes, and what im getting at is that those aztect models are fake even for aztecs. Do those countries even stylize their military like that today? Maybe for parades, maybe.

If people have a cultural dog bone all the time then stick to civ buildings and civ bonuses. Its more real and believable.

Native american civs dont need eagle feathers on their fighter jets anymore than aztec foot soldiers need bright multicolored uniforms just for the hek of it. This sounds more like a westerner trying to force round pegs into aztec holes (yes that sounds bad but im sticking with it).

None of those soldiers models are depicting modern infantry, Europa Universalis 4 only goes up to Napoleonic era which I think is what the last soldier on the right is meant to depict. European armies had a long tradition of flamboyant colourful uniforms (Redcoats?) they helped tell apart which side you were on. How is it unrealistic for a hypothetical Aztec line infantry to have a colourful uniform?

You keep trying to steer this into vehicles like ships and planes but I'm not talking about those. Regardless the worst aspect of all this is we have actual references that could be used for a Korean Musketeer or a Arabian Man-at-Arms not a single amount of creative 'What-ifs' is needed because they existed but they get dressed up as Europeans all the same personally it takes a lot of the immersion of playing these cultures when they all run around with roundhead helmets and ruffled collars.

 

[Vityviktor]

I'm quite disappointed about the Men-at-arms thing. I wasn't expecting full new models for each set (like Swordsmen or Knights), but I think the Pikemen solution (same body but cultural-varied helmets) would be enough. I really hope this could be updated, just like many of the Swordsmen models were redesigned.

About Renaissance units, I think the same. Some of the details for some of the cultural sets (the ruffed collars) should probably be re-designed for non-European civs.

And finally, about Industrial units (like the new Line Infantry) I'm pretty much OK. I would love to see some cultural variations (it could be a quite nice detail to have Fez hats for Ottoman/Middle Eastern sets like during the Tanzimat reforms, for instance), but I think I can tolerate their "uniformity" considering the era.

 

[Killer Rabbit]

Firaxis: Here, have a free new unit in this free new patch!

Civ fanatics: BUT IT DOESNT HAVE MORE THAN ONE MODEL!

Seriously. It’s incredible how people always find something to complain about even when we’re talking about free units in a free patch.

 

[FinalDoomsday]

I'm quite disappointed about the Men-at-arms thing. I wasn't expecting full new models for each set (like Swordsmen or Knights), but I think the Pikemen solution (same body but cultural-varied helmets) would be enough. I really hope this could be updated, just like many of the Swordsmen models were redesigned.

About Renaissance units, I think the same. Some of the details for some of the cultural sets (the ruffed collars) should probably be re-designed for non-European civs.

And finally, about Industrial units (like the new Line Infantry) I'm pretty much OK. I would love to see some cultural variations (it could be a quite nice detail to have Fez hats for Ottoman/Middle Eastern sets like during the Tanzimat reforms, for instance), but I think I can tolerate their "uniformity" considering the era.

Yeah I think there could be some reuse of assets they already do this a bit already for instance I think the Roman catapult has legions in its crew which is a nice detail. The Korean UU for instance:

Why not use those models for the Korean Musketeer and Pike and Shot as well for instance? The first model could work for Man at Arms too. The units have different posture, weapons, formations and icons so they won't get mixed up. A similar thing could be done with other UU's like China's

I think a lot could be done without any new assets at all.

 

[Zaarin]

Considering the general quality of the art assets in NFP, is this really a surprise? I don't think there's a better argument that Firaxis is moving their team on to other projects than that the art assets from NFP look like they were made by a backup team.

 

[Haig]

To my knowledge art assets are one of the most expensive, if not expensive part of the game, probably Firaxis didn't have time and/or money to do ethic variations for the units.

Compared to Civ 5, which had none of it, I have been happy to see the variations for early era units. World war era infantry, machinegun etc have also variations like Germans have their stielhelms which is cool.

Even a Humankind dev said that reason there's so many similar unique units in their game is for budget reasons.
Naturally they got sympathy and positive feedback for that, while Firaxis seems to be lazy and greedy again with their man-at-arms.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Went to see if the new units might have some variations for different civs but nope.
View attachment 594596 View attachment 594597

I understand Man-at-Arms is a European term but the unit itself is trying to depict an armoured fighter of which there are many examples.

Even just having some different helmets/hats and maybe just having a couple of different weapons could have looked good. Rise of Nations 18 years ago was doing a better job with a few broad unit styles that stretched across the eras but Civ 6 has some variation but basically gives up in the Reneissance era and makes everyone look European.

Really hope Civ VII does a better job of representing the civilisations it tries to depict.

At lease F'xis had finally read @Boris Gudenuf essays regarding to Medieval melee choices. These Men-at-arms did wield weapons according to his definitions.

Judging from the look however. it seems modders (Especially Warfare Expanded team) did MUCH better than this.
There still ain't enough ethnical variations in unmodded games either! see? 'pikemen' and 'knights' wore the SAME armors in every cultres. while in truth.
1. Asians didn't get the same steel cuirass UNTIL 16th Century with tradings with Portuguese. Their medieval pikemen should wear either splintmail, scalemail or studded mail. And so did anybody else.
2. Knight armors with tabards outside were signatures of European Knights, not shared by others. (Actually I prefer Gothic Knight armor design for Euro variants, and Song era for Asian knights instead)
3. Men At Arms were more or less 'knights' in full armor but fight dismounted. or not even mounted AT ALL. Actually they wore knight helmets and not ones from European Pikemen set.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

To my knowledge art assets are one of the most expensive, if not expensive part of the game, probably Firaxis didn't have time and/or money to do ethic variations for the units.

Compared to Civ 5, which had none of it, I have been happy to see the variations for early era units. World war era infantry, machinegun etc have also variations like Germans have their stielhelms which is cool.

Even a Humankind dev said that reason there's so many similar unique units in their game is for budget reasons.
Naturally they got sympathy and positive feedback for that, while Firaxis seems to be lazy and greedy again with their man-at-arms.

It appeared that they began working on Civ7 as we speak. they're about to conclude Civ6, or if they wanted Season2 they might hire smaller studios to do it.

 

[FinalDoomsday]

To my knowledge art assets are one of the most expensive, if not expensive part of the game, probably Firaxis didn't have time and/or money to do ethic variations for the units.

Compared to Civ 5, which had none of it, I have been happy to see the variations for early era units. World war era infantry, machinegun etc have also variations like Germans have their stielhelms which is cool.

Even a Humankind dev said that reason there's so many similar unique units in their game is for budget reasons.
Naturally they got sympathy and positive feedback for that, while Firaxis seems to be lazy and greedy again with their man-at-arms.

I don't think they are lazy I assume its due to budget and they simply don't see cultural variations as worth their time and at least some people agree with them. You are right Civ V had none but I think I recall Civ IV did have some variation in one of the expansions.

In Humankind's defence they have 60 cultures so that means 60 unique units, they also have 60 unique districts and each culture has a unique city centre design. That is all in addition to having alot of cultural variety for generic units that apparently goes all the way to the modern era for infantry and crewed weapons, modern Vehicles and ships will be the same across all cultures.

However as I said in my previous post I believe they could have done something using existing assets used for unique units that could have been used to make the generic units at least a little more reflective of the civs they represent.

 

[GenyaArikado]

To my knowledge art assets are one of the most expensive, if not expensive part of the game, probably Firaxis didn't have time and/or money to do ethic variations for the units.

Compared to Civ 5, which had none of it, I have been happy to see the variations for early era units. World war era infantry, machinegun etc have also variations like Germans have their stielhelms which is cool.

Even a Humankind dev said that reason there's so many similar unique units in their game is for budget reasons.
Naturally they got sympathy and positive feedback for that, while Firaxis seems to be lazy and greedy again with their man-at-arms.

Humankind is a new franchise, Civilization isn't. Pick a better comparison

 

[Kwami]

Humankind is a new franchise, Civilization isn't. Pick a better comparison

But Amplitude isn't a new studio and Sega isn't a small publisher, so I think the comparison is valid.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

But Amplitude isn't a new studio and Sega isn't a small publisher, so I think the comparison is valid.

Actually Amplitude reworked an engine that made Endless Legend to fit with Humankind.
SEGA is a giant publisher from Japan. it began as Arcade and Pachinko publisher several decades ago.
SEGA realized the PC Potential considerably late. but once it did, Sega took VERY SERIOUS EFFORT on this platform MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE IN JAPAN.

 

[Kwami]

I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not...

 

[Futumch]

Stick a colour-shifting surcoat or tabard over their armour. It would have the colours indexed to the Civ jersey colours for that game (e.g. dark blue and white for America, white and red for Japan etc). Each civ in the current game would have a unique version of their Man-at-arms. Considering the model is mostly covered in metal it would add a bit of visual interest.
It's a bit of a hack, but it'd work.

This is something that I feel should have been built into the game anyway. Emblems on ship sails, knight shields, tails and wings of aircraft. There is plenty of scope to slap down a decal of your civ's emblem on a fighting unit.

 

[Kwami]

Stick a colour-shifting surcoat or tabard over their armour. It would have the colours indexed to the Civ jersey colours for that game (e.g. dark blue and white for America, white and red for Japan etc). Each civ in the current game would have a unique version of their Man-at-arms. Considering the model is mostly covered in metal it would add a bit of visual interest.
It's a bit of a hack, but it'd work.

This is something that I feel should have been built into the game anyway. Emblems on ship sails, knight shields, tails and wings of aircraft. There is plenty of scope to slap down a decal of your civ's emblem on a fighting unit.

Would that really satisfy the fans here, though? I think they want varying skin tones and different armors and the like.