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Alright, it's about time I asked this one.
I know multiple sources of Mana give bonuses, either giving free access to rank 1-3 spells, increasing the latent bonuses, or just powering up affinities.
Normally, I try to nab one of each kind of Node to grab the widest spectrum of possibilities, and giving each (Arch)Mage two spheres to focus on, sometimes three if they live long enough means with enough Mages I have pretty much all the spells I could ever want.
Now I'm trying to figure out, which way is better for someone who tends to be an all-conquering, generally skull-bashing kind of person like me, regardless of limits or special bonuses (Amurites) civilizations bestow.
Or if you can't be bothered to read that - which way and why?
I should have said that first.
imho that depends on you civ and what you want. as an example a calabim will LOVE a lot of death manas but an amurite needs diversity... it very situational that and deppends on your aemy and waht do you want... another example would be an ljolsalfar as it needs fire, and enchantment (for fire arrows), water (spring) and health (to stop hell from destroying forests) but an illian just with ice could live on...
That's why I was thinking of a more civilization-agnostic view, based more on strategies than civilizations. If you work it hard enough, it's possible to use any strategy with any Civ. Going to war as the Elohim and peacekeeping as the Clan of Embers, reversing the normal roles. Sheiam lowering the AC instead of raising it, and so on
Obviously it's a strategic decision and there is no right or wrong answer. That said, if I have the time, I will usually go first for diversity and then later go for specialization. I will tend to build adepts with different types of mana, just so I have buffs or debuffs that I feel I need covered. It depends on how many nodes there are too. If possible, I try to go for double of mana types for the free promotions when building adepts, and dispel/build new ones for a new wave of building. If I have lots of mana nodes, I'll have a lot of pairs going on, and when I'm doing mages, I'll look for threes of course.
There are often one or a couple of spare mana nodes, and I'll switch these around and buy the promotions with experience in addition to the free ones. Even at times I feel I need water mana, I'll still only make one or two adepts with it usually, so I don't bother doubling up on it.
But I typically only diversify to get the promotions I'm looking for, ultimately I want to be specialized if my casters are going to be offensive. Sometimes I switch gears prematurely if there's war, so I can get the upper hand now, instead of later.
With some civs, and in some games, I don't use my casters as offensive weapons at all, but more as defensive ones, or as support for my non-casters. In these kinds of games I may specialize, or I may diversify, it just depends. If I want to boost my research, I'll go all mind, if my happiness hurts, I'll do enchantment, if I'm desperate for mithril, I'll go earth, and so on.
If I'm not specializing in a non-caster game, I'll usually go based on what promotions I want adepts (or mages) to have. I might look for two mind nodes for Inspiration, 2-3 spirit for hope/courage, 2-3 body for haste/regen, 2-3 enchant for buffs, shadow and chaos and sometimes nature are other choices too. The free promotions just make it easier and faster to round them out with the spells I want them to have most for my particular strategy.
Some interesting ideas in them at least. I think I'm going to have to experiment a bit with them in the next game.
Now, I've kinda only just stumbled into OverCouncil because I got bored of steamrolling everyone else with more votes in the UnderCouncil. Over can outlaw some mana types, I noticed.
I'm assuming this makes it as if you had no access to those mana types, but I've voted against them every time so far because I don't like being restricted, so I haven't found out for sure.
Does it block getting the promotions for those mana types, or is it a complete nation-wide ban?
It blocks the members of the Overcouncil from having any access to any mana nodes of that type. You can still buy higher level promotions on units that have lower level promotions of it, but no one can buy the first level.
1) Don't diversify unless you need to or have the luxury of doing so.
For instance, if your units get combat bonuses from certain types of mana, like Death, and you're going to be fighting with them, stacking it is the best thing you can do.
But, what if you have enough Death Mana to hold you over, for now? Then, why not get some Shadow/Entropy/Chaos/Spirit and go for the Tower of Necromancy (+1 Death). Yet more Death for you to stack and you get Rust, Blur and Dance of Blades to boot! (Blur and Dance of Blades are awesome.)
Fire is great to stack, but I wouldn't build more than two, normally. (In that case, I'd hope the third comes from my palace or wonder.) It depends on whether you're going to be using a lot of mages to take down walls and weaken defenders. If not, you don't need it as badly.
2) If you Diversify, have a reason.
Having lots of low level mages popping off a whole slew of Level 1 spells isn't the best use of your effort. Sure, it may give you some advantages in certain situations. But, in a slugfest, someone who stacked Mana is going to have better casters than you. Unless you can guarrantee your mages a lot of experience to build on, don't pump them out with all sorts of different level one spells. Try to get some automagically, first, then do some fill-in work. Promoting mages that instantly get fireballs frees up a promo slot for something else...
So, if you diversify, make sure you're doing it for a reason. Building a wonder, getting the territory bonus (+happiness/+research/whatever) or because you need Metamagic for Dispell (to reconfigure nodes later or to dispel effects) are all good reasons.
I generally stick to one plan, depending on the type of civ.
If it's units that are "alive" then Fire/Metamagic/Enchantment/Body are usually my first choices. I like having units that can dispel early in the game. But, I might bump up Enchantment a notch if I didn't think I'd need Dispel Magic.
If they're "not alive" and have a synergy, like with Death, then it's Death/ Death/Fire/Meta and then Chaos/Enchantment (If they don't already have Shadow. Blur is too awesome as a first level spell to pass up!)
I believe they do.
Just how does one get Gaelen, incidentally? I've only just run accross him owned by someone else, and all I can find is that it's an event.
Generally: I focus on acquiring the specific mana needs of my civilization or strategy - regardless of the fun aspects of other manas. Usually that means capturing mana nodes or trading for mana that correspond to the civ's palace mana. Most of the time, I've found it convenient to build on a civ's palace mana because it's a quicker route to higher level spells and most palace manas are appropriate for their civs' strengths or weaknesses. If I'm not particularly familiar with playing a civ, I've found it a useful rule-of-thumb (palace mana) to go this route. It's not always optimal though.
For example: When I play the Ljosalfar, using Amelanchier as a leader, I'd leverage my palace Nature and Air manas by first getting more of the same so as to open the more powerful second level spells of their type; the Air II spell is a good substitute for the Elves lack of siegecraft. In the Ljos case though, I haven't found extra Life mana (their 3rd palace mana) especially useful so I often go for Enchantment mana instead; it buffs their mediocre infantry and helps their specialty Archers. Three different manas focused on what the Ljos under Amelachier need.
If I'm going to play a certain strategy - say I want to play a peaceful environmentalist (just for a change of pace), I still like to focusrather than going for diversity. In the environmentalist strategy, I'd try for two environmental mana (say Nature and Life) types and one stereotypical power mana (say Fire).
However, I often through conquest get more types of mana but I don't often base my initial mana goals on diversifying.
1) Don't diversify unless you need to or have the luxury of doing so.
2) If you Diversify, have a reason.
Having lots of low level mages popping off a whole slew of Level 1 spells isn't the best use of your effort. Sure, it may give you some advantages in certain situations. But, in a slugfest, someone who stacked Mana is going to have better casters than you. Unless you can guarrantee your mages a lot of experience to build on, don't pump them out with all sorts of different level one spells. Try to get some automagically, first, then do some fill-in work. Promoting mages that instantly get fireballs frees up a promo slot for something else...
So, if you diversify, make sure you're doing it for a reason. Building a wonder, getting the territory bonus (+happiness/+research/whatever) or because you need Metamagic for Dispell (to reconfigure nodes later or to dispel effects) are all good reasons.
Sorry, I don't agree, if you are building your mages as supporting/buffing units, then I don't care that your mages are stronger by concentrating on a few mana sources.
Say I have an army with 100 units, mostly melee, maybe with archers, assassins, rangers, etc. And my opponent has a similar army.
Then if I have even a few adepts/mages, the power of buffing is magnified since the buff will impact every single unit in the stack. If I have one mage casting dance of blades, one casting a first and second level enchantment spell, one casting blur, one casting haste, and a bunch casting rust, and of course maybe 2 casting maelstorm, I'm not worried if my opponent's equal sized army has stronger mages all summoning specters, for instance. The fact that my regular army is now such much stronger would be decisive.
So I still think you have to distinguish if your plan is to win through conventional force, and threfore magic is best being supportive (say with the Bannor), or if you are planning on your magic users to be a dominanct source of power (Amurites).
Good points, Breunor, good points. As someone who plays mediocre combat Civs (like the Ljosalfars) I suppose I might make more frequent use of the full panoply of Level 1 buffing spells for my green machine but I often feel it's a luxury what with all the nodes one would have to have - and don't get me started on the research and opportunity costs learning different mana spheres.
Still if your army's large enough and you can afford the luxury of diverting research into multiple magic spheres and foregoing fast quicker access to the Level 2 spells l...
Sorry, I don't agree, if you are building your mages as supporting/buffing units, then I don't care that your mages are stronger by concentrating on a few mana sources.
Say I have an army with 100 units, mostly melee, maybe with archers, assassins, rangers, etc. And my opponent has a similar army.
Then if I have even a few adepts/mages, the power of buffing is magnified since the buff will impact every single unit in the stack. If I have one mage casting dance of blades, one casting a first and second level enchantment spell, one casting blur, one casting haste, and a bunch casting rust, and of course maybe 2 casting maelstorm, I'm not worried if my opponent's equal sized army has stronger mages all summoning specters, for instance. The fact that my regular army is now such much stronger would be decisive.
So I still think you have to distinguish if your plan is to win through conventional force, and threfore magic is best being supportive (say with the Bannor), or if you are planning on your magic users to be a dominanct source of power (Amurites).
But, some of the spell spheres are more useful than others in the early levels. And some, like Fire, take two promotions to reach a very dominant and powerful spell - Fireball. If you're shooting for Fireballs to take down walls and soften up troops, doubling up on Fire early is a good way to get a leap on the competition. (And light a fire under them, as well...) It's not that you'll have access to fireball any earlier. You'll still get a point when they reach Rank II. So, as long as they started with Fire and got Blaze as a pre-Rank II promotion, you can be assured of having a point to spend in Fire when they advance. But, if you were guarranteed to get Fireball when they advanced, you'll free up that point for another spell. Thus, they can serve double-duty instead of just being a glass cannon.
The best one-shot-wonder spheres are going to be Body (Haste), Chaos (Dance of Blades), Death (For skeletons in early game), Enchantment (Enchanted Blade) and Shadow (Blur). Those are all good flavors of mana, in general, IMO.
But, you have to spend a promo point to get that first spell.. unless you double up. Then you get it for free and your point can be spent elsewhere. You're always going to have some sort of spell availability due to the mana from your Palace. Doubling up on that mana resource, especially if it's one of the good flavors of mana that nets you great first tier spells, is a good choice.
That being said, I always have two grades of casters. One are "Buffers." All they do is buff the stack. The rest are utility and glass cannon casters (fireball/summons/debuffs/etc..) I'm always going to have some sort of Mana from my Palace. (I think. ) So, depending on what that is, I may choose immediately to double up on it. Then, with one node, I never have to worry about assigning a promo point to a unit for a useful spell. I can use that point to get another spell in another school. I'm going to have 3 (IIRC) different types of mana coming from my Palace. That point can be used to span into another school.
There's a lot that depends on how developed the current game is. For instance, if you can afford to pump out several magic using units and assign them to different buff spell duties, then, by all means, do so. But, if you've got to maximize your return on units, doubling up so you can get an extra spell for those units so they can serve a double-duty role, where applicable, is a smart move, IMO.
Much depends on the composition of the army, as well.
For instance, with Bannor, I want all the buffs I can get. My champions are going to be leading the way. I want Dance of Blades, Blur, Enchanted Blade, etc.. pronto! But, I doubt I would double up on those mana sources right off the bat. Why? Because, I'm not going to have Champions for awhile in most of my games. I need to see where I can expand to in order to gain those nodes that I need/want for the later game.
But, with a Civ like the D'tesh (RiFE) or Calabim (FFH2) that benefit hugely from Death, I'm going to want to pump out Death Nodes like candy, as soon as possible. The spectre summons alone can be changed from ho-hum attrition units to a wave of black destruction!
More in the spoiler:
Spoiler:
In closing, I don' think there's an easy answer. I'll see if I can sum up what I think someone should be examining to be better able to make such a decision:
1) Does your Civilization have units (or use a lot of summoned creatures) that have a synergy with a particular mana type? ie: +1 combat w/ Death Mana If so, getting more of that mana could be a very easy way to drastically increase their combat potential.
2) Are you a Builder or a Conqueror? If the former, you may benefit from the Civilization-wide benefits some nodes can bring. (Body +1 Health, Mind 3% Research, Enchantment +1 Happy, etc..) If the latter, you may also need to consider those Civ wide enhancements. But, for the most part, you're going to be looking for buffs and offensive capabilities for your troops. (ie: Fire/Death/Chaos along with the above)
3) Are you planning for a late game victory or an early game conquest? A late game victory gives you time to locate and capture other nodes. So, you may not need (or have the chance) to worry about diversifying early. But, in the late game, if you don't have a few key spells (like Dance of Blades/Haste) you might find yourself in more trouble than you would be otherwise when you face more powerful units.
4) Then, can you afford to pump out several unique caster units and dedicate them to a spell while pumping out troops they can buff as well? How's your production and cash? Do you have enough cities to pump out the number of units you'll need? A buffing mage, while not completely useless in combat, is not going to perform its intended function without units to buff. Buffs in FFH2 are force multipliers. The more you have, the stronger your force is. But, many have to be applied every round, so you'll need dedicated casters that have the experience necessary to cast that spell. Are they going to have the experience necessary to cast the spell you want and can you supply them without negatively impacting your combat potential in the field.? Can you deal with just assigning that unit "Buff Monkey" status?
5) What mana does your Civilization get from its palace? Everyone gets something. (3 types, IIRC) Are any of your starting mana's really useful for what you intend to do during the game? Would doubling up one of those give you an edge? Always check your starting mana and decide whether or not you want to double up on one as soon as you get the chance in the early game. (If you start with Fire or Death, congratulations..)
6) Do you have any unique features nearby that provide mana? Always try to take advantage of the mana from unique terrain features (Pyre of the Seraphatic <sp> etc.) whenever you can. They can double your mana in a sphere or give you access to a desired one you didn't have, freeing up one of your mana nodes for whatever you wish to use it for.
Many of the first tier spells are almost too powerful and too useful without much of a hurdle to reach. That sort of clouds the issue, a little bit. IMO, we shouldn't be able to get away with cranking out one unit that gives a stack an I-Win button right off the bat. But, you can do it.. At best, a first tier caster should only be able to effect a few units or not have access to the prime combat/buff spells in their sphere without several promotions. But, they do..
Eek! Sorry for the tldr post... Oh well, hiding part of it in a spoiler so as not to offend anyone that doesn't want to read a long post..
Hey, Morkonan, I'm wondering, is it worth diversifying if I'll get a tower out of it? I mean if I'm not going for a tower of mastery victory, but, for example, if I'm playing the Sheaim I get three of the mana requirements for the tower of necromancy just from my palace. Is it worth not doubling up on one mana type so I can get out a tower of necromancy?
Towers are good... sometimes. When you lack just one mana node to get a tower, it may be worth it.
Tower of necromancy is good if you want to go for death summons.
Tower of divination on the other hand... is good almost always
Yeah, a well timed Tower of Divination can grab you a tech 50-100 (perhaps even more) turns earlier than you'd normally get it. If you have the mana to go for it, via empty/raw nodes and palace, you definitely should.
IF that Tower gives you an edge you want, of course it is. You're getting a "free" Mana node out of that, on top of getting additional mana you don't have. Plus, you're going to double-up a mana source you want anyway when Tower is completed. Then, one has to consider the benefits of the other effects the Tower will have. When playing with a civ that benefits from Death, I always try to build a Tower of Necromancy when I can.
But, there are some situations where I may not do that. For instance, if I have relatively few nodes and I really need Enchantment (for the buff and +happy) or Metamagic (for dispelling nodes in the future) or Fire (For Fireballs) then I may decide not to prepare ahead of time for a Tower of Necromancy by denying my civ these benefits. So, I may convert nodes in captured territory at a later time in order to meet the pre-reqs for a Tower.
IF that Tower gives you an edge you want, of course it is. You're getting a "free" Mana node out of that, on top of getting additional mana you don't have. Plus, you're going to double-up a mana source you want anyway when Tower is completed. Then, one has to consider the benefits of the other effects the Tower will have. When playing with a civ that benefits from Death, I always try to build a Tower of Necromancy when I can.
But, there are some situations where I may not do that. For instance, if I have relatively few nodes and I really need Enchantment (for the buff and +happy) or Metamagic (for dispelling nodes in the future) or Fire (For Fireballs) then I may decide not to prepare ahead of time for a Tower of Necromancy by denying my civ these benefits. So, I may convert nodes in captured territory at a later time in order to meet the pre-reqs for a Tower.
If you manage to get both the Order and Empy holy cities, you're quite close to getting the Tower of Divination (depending on your civ). It may just take one or two more mana types to get that one.
Given the diversity of strategies outlined here -- always leave room for one metamagic node, espcially if you're trying out different strategies within one game.
Given the diversity of strategies outlined here -- always leave room for one metamagic node, espcially if you're trying out different strategies within one game.
I often follow the diversity strategy and my first mage gets metamagic 1 and then Dispel magic on promotion. One of his first acts is to change the metamagic node to something more useful for the following adepts and mages. If you look after him only one Dispel Magic mage is often enough, unless the nodes are widespread when another couple can be useful
After that I often pair up sets of nodes with other mana sources such as my capital and a shrine or two, so my adepts get free level 1 spells, then when they're promoted to mages I shuffle all the nodes around. I build adepts in batches and upgrade my mages in batches too to reduce the inevitable micro-management, but I enjoy that sort of fussing about with a game like FFH2.
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and opportunity costs learning different mana spheres. 
) So, depending on what that is, I may choose immediately to double up on it. Then, with one node, I never have to worry about assigning a promo point to a unit for a useful spell. I can use that point to get another spell in another school. I'm going to have 3 (IIRC) different types of mana coming from my Palace. That point can be used to span into another school.
