Manverulin's thoughts

Manverulin

I'm not crazy...
Joined
Aug 29, 2003
Messages
427
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In the shadows...
Here are my thoughts and ideas. I'm gonna be putting more when I come up with any more. Ideas, thoughts, suggestions, and constructive criticism welcome! :)


Immigration

If you build certain Wonders like the Pyramids or the Sistine Chapel, if you have lots of culture, if you have a better government, are richer, etc. then, along with city flipping(immigration would be a mild version of city flipping), you could attract immigrants in the form of labourers in your cities. This could happen when a foreign city near your borders gains a population point, and then you would gain a population point as well.

Another idea, we could reintroduce(IIRC its been in a previous civ game) the Statue of Liberty wonder that would attract more immigrants from bordering civs(you know, that 'bring me your huddled masses' stuff fits perfectly).

For example, you're America and you have a border with the Babylonians. If you have a greater cultural value than Babylon, or if you could build the Statue of Liberty wonder, then when one of Babylon's border cities, let's say Lagash, gains a population point, then the nearest city or maybe your capital gains a population point as well. This commensalistic relationship then profits your cities while not harming Lagash, or Babylon as a whole. Or maybe, they just come directly from their cities, and they lose population points, while you gain.

Also, there are refugees that could come seeking refuge in your nation in times of war. You could limit the amount of people coming in and they could either go back when the war is over, or they could choose to stay.


Tourism

Although tourism is already implemented in the game, I'd like to see it develop more.

You have some really old Great Wonders, and they become famous world-wide. People, or tourists, come to see them and this generates income for treasury.

There could be a new city improvement, like a Tourist Department or Hotels or Customs Office or something of the sort, that would allow tourists from other civs to come into the cities which have the great wonders. Like, you know the population roster in your city screen? Well, there could also be a 'Tourist Roster' that could tell you what nationalities the tourists are and how many tourists there are. Or instead of that, there could be a tourist advisor and the tourist advisor screen could be modelled in a fashion like the domestic advisor's, so that there would be the list of cities that have the tourist improvement and the nationalities and amount of tourists in each city. There would also be certain amounts of gold from each tourist or groups of tourists, depending on the situation of the tourist's civ. And this gold would come from the tourists themselves and not the civ's own treasury. Just imagine having a continuous drain on your treasury just because your people want to go see the Pyramids in Trondheim!

Let's use the city of Boston for example.

So you go to Boston's display screen, or you look for Boston in the tourist advisor screen and you would be able to see the tourist icons with the appropriate colours of the tourists' nationalities.

Perhaps you see a group of French tourists, and let's say that France has tons and tons of gold. That would mean that the French tourists would have a lot of gold to spend, and therefore we profit from the large amounts of gold that the tourists would spend, (let's say that the max amount of gold a tourist can spend is 25(?)gold per turn and the min in 1) which would be about 15-25 gold per turn. Then you see some English tourists, and England is relatively poor. The English tourists would then spend about 1-5 goldgold per turn because of their civ's financial situation. You would then get a small stream of gold from tourism, each group of tourists from different civs giving different amounts of gold each turn. Of course, the amount of gold per turn for each group of tourists would keep changing and some civs won't even have any tourists to your nation.

Of course, there would also be negative aspects to tourism. There would be the terrorist that would be disguised as a tourist. And when the terrorist attacks, the suspects would be any civs that have tourists in your nation at the time. Almost like a spy if you will. This could then become a spy mission, and you could do this yourself. There would then be an option to refuse entrance to tourists of certain untrustworthy civs that are 'cautious', 'annoyed', or 'furious' towards you. If you yourself choose to do this, then there is of course a chance that you could be caught, and gain a black mark on your reputation. And of course, like other spy missions, this would cost gold.

For example, you just had a big trade disagreement with India and Gandhi went from 'gracious' to 'furious'. Well, you see a decline in Indian tourists, but a few turns later, a bomb explodes the library in Washington. You're on friendly terms with everyone that has tourists except for India. Guess the nationality of the terrorist. You got it, Indian. So, it leaves a black mark on Gandhi's reputation when this is revealed.

But if it turns out that you're not sure if Gandhi actually did it, and you have no actual proof that Gandhi did it(or he actually didn't do it), he doesn't get any black marks, and Washington is left being deprived of it's library.

Terrorists could also be able to somehow damage wonders, either by negating their effect for a certain amount of turns or something like that.


UN Meetings

Somehow, we could include meetings with the whole UN thing. When the UN is built, sessions could be held for solving problems, like 'China and Japan are at war. Should we stop them?' or 'The new World Bank needs funding for poorer nations for the next 25 years. How much gold/turn should each rich nation deposit?' etc. Then there would be a whole list of options about how to solve the problem. Kinda like the United Planets in Galactic Civilizations, for those of you who've played it before. Then the voting could happen at longer intervals, so there are more meetings before someone gets to win the election.


Original Inhabitants

In real life, nations like Canada, the US, and Brazil have many original inhabitants, or native peoples, which live on the land, but don't exactly completely control it. Why not put this in Civ? When you first inhabit an area, there are minor tribes which live there. You control the land, but they still live on it. They are like small towns which just are there and they can occasionally produce workers or population points for nearby cities. As long as you set aside small plots of land for their own use(about 4-9 tiles which will be left undeveloped, like reserves if you will), they are happy. If you treat them badly, then your reputation is marked.


Resource Introduction

In the beginning, certain resources, mainly plant and animal, are only found on certain continents/islands/whatever, and not on others. A real life example would be the introductions of horses to the Americas(I think). When the Europeans brought horses to the Americas, they became adapted to the environment and populated the land. The way these resources could be introduced are by trade, or when you colonize on another continent/island/whatever which doesn't have the resource. The resource would then start to spread and pop up all around the place.


Changing Terrain

We already have terrain changing due to pollution, but we should have stuff like shrinking lakes, and changing elevations.

Here are some examples:
-Terrain change due to pollution (already in the game)
-Shrinking lakes due to either global warming or some other reason (real like example could be the Aral Sea)
-Rising and decending sea levels due to pollution/global warming/whatever
-Rising and decending land elevations due to tectonics, like hills to mountains, vice versa and some other stuff (of course in real life, stuff like this isn't really noticeable, but hey, it's Civ)
-Jungles, forests, and marshes 'grow' (so if there is a group of the stuff around, or you replant it, it can slowly expand, like in real like, where animals, people, and wind spread the seeds around, then it slowly grows)
-Other stuff that the Firaxians can easily come up with :)


Natural Disasters

Add in stuff like:

-Tornadoes
-Hurricanes/Typhoons/Monsoons
-Drought
-Pests
-Tsunamis
-Earthquakes
-Forest fires
-Floods


Unit Trading

Pretty much self-explanitory.


Okay now I have some editor ideas

Culture Groups

The only culture groups available are Asian, American, European, Mediterranean, and Mid Eastern. We should be able to make new culture groups, like African, or Mesopotamian. The ability to make new culture groups could also allow us to make different graphics for different civs, if we wished to. For example, we could make different temples for the Zulu, Arabs, and Babylonians, who would otherwise have the same graphics under Mid Eastern. We could assign each a different culture group(African, Mideastern, and Mesopotamian) and have more flavour in the game.


Misc.

Some small things that could be useful:

- A move selection option (don't you just hate it when you place something really big on the map that you don't want to change, like a whole land mass with positioned resources, only to find out that it needs to be moved more to where ever?)

- A cut and paste option (for when you want to transfer a part of one map to another)

- Delete all of _____ resources and delete all of _____ resources in selected area

- More colours to pick from for the different civs (there are enough selections to pick from so that each civ has a different colour, but some look so much the same)
 
Immigration

This has already been discussed a lot somewhere. Perhaps it was under CivilWars?

Also, there are refugees that could come seeking refuge in your nation in times of war. You could limit the amount of people coming in and they could either go back when the war is over, or they could choose to stay.

What would be the pros and cons in this? Refugees aren't exactly the best thing one can hope for, so they shouldn't be just more citizens. How do you prohibit their entry - via military? Interesting idea, though.

Although tourism is already implemented in the game, I'd like to see it develop more.

I think your suggestion would not bring anything new to tourism in terms of gameplay - your old wonders would still bring money as before. I would stick with the far more simpler existing system. But how would it be determined which nations would send in their tourists and which wouldn't?

Guess the nationality of the terrorist. You got it, Indian. So, it leaves a black mark on Gandhi's reputation when this is revealed.

How would the nationality be revealed? It might just as well be the crafty, albeit gracious, Zulus that just decided to take an advantage of your poor relations with India. Just the fact that India doesn't like you is hardly any proof. The murderer isn't always the one who disliked the murdered person! ;) So what would settle it? Would it be just about the terrorist somehow getting caught or be identified? How would this then differ from spys and what would it have to do with tourism? Hmmh, perhaps just that you could make it harder for other nations' spys to enter your country by prohibiting their tourists from entering - while at the same time limiting your income? This sort of tourism-concept should be linked to culture in general, not only wonders, though. If it should be implemented at all, I mean.

UN MEETINGS: Yeah, I'm with you :goodjob:

ORIGINAL INHABITANTS: I think this should be done via barbarians - like it is done now. It would be too much trouble to handle all those original inhabitants and putting them into reservates.

A real life example would be the introductions of horses to the Americas(I think).

There were actually horses in America in times long past, but they were extinct by the time the indian civs rose. This of course is just a remark, nothing against your idea, which is nice. It might (once again :lol: ) be a bit too complicated. This problem has been discussed before, and IMO should be handled by not requiring certain resources after certain time has passed. This would represent the spread of resources as well as some resources such as iron being found in abundance.

CHANGING TERRAIN: there should indeed be more of this sort of problems caused by pollution. About the tectonics...well.. It is often so that if something is real, it may not be introduced into Civ, but if something isn't real, it shouldn't be introduced. The rising and falling of mountains is WAY too slow a process to have ANYTHING to do with civ. Or perhaps Civ should begin from 5 billion BC? :crazyeye:

About the other stuff: fine by me :D Though what is the actual difference between mid-eastern and mesopotamian culture groups? I think the time-difference should not be a factor - we have Americans roaming the lands 4000 BC, remember! :)
 
Originally posted by Shyrramar
What would be the pros and cons in this? Refugees aren't exactly the best thing one can hope for, so they shouldn't be just more citizens. How do you prohibit their entry - via military? Interesting idea, though.

Pros would be they could become, I dunno, foreign workers or something for a while, or maybe they could become your citizens. Cons could be your citizens could be unhappy with the refugees, or something. Can't think of anything right now. They could showup on city screens as population heads, but they could be seperated from the your other population heads. Prohibit their entry by closing the border or something. An advisor can show up asking if you want the refugees in or out. You could somehow set how many are allowed in. You could also declare war on the nation that the refugees are coming from if they don't get their citizens of your land. A bit sketchy but they could probably be worked upon.


Originally posted by Shyrramar
I think your suggestion would not bring anything new to tourism in terms of gameplay - your old wonders would still bring money as before. I would stick with the far more simpler existing system. But how would it be determined which nations would send in their tourists and which wouldn't?

Nations that are friendly with you or that are rich or whatever would have tourists. If you have a great wonder, then I guess tourists would come from almost everywhere. Nations that are at war with you or are not friendly or are poor wouldn't have tourists.


Originally posted by Shyrramar
How would the nationality be revealed? .... So what would settle it? Would it be just about the terrorist somehow getting caught or be identified? How would this then differ from spys and what would it have to do with tourism? Hmmh, perhaps just that you could make it harder for other nations' spys to enter your country by prohibiting their tourists from entering - while at the same time limiting your income? This sort of tourism-concept should be linked to culture in general, not only wonders, though. If it should be implemented at all, I mean.

A new spy mission could reveal it. Maybe something like 'Investigate Sabotage' or something. Yeah, I guess you're right, it's similar to spies, but whatever, it's a new perspective to spy missions, I guess.


Originally posted by Shyrramar
Though what is the actual difference between mid-eastern and mesopotamian culture groups?

Religion mainly. But I put those in as an example because I know that some people want a Mesopotamian culture group.
 
Originally posted by Manverulin
Pros would be they could become, I dunno, foreign workers or something for a while, or maybe they could become your citizens. Cons could be your citizens could be unhappy with the refugees, or something. Can't think of anything right now. They could showup on city screens as population heads, but they could be seperated from the your other population heads. Prohibit their entry by closing the border or something. An advisor can show up asking if you want the refugees in or out. You could somehow set how many are allowed in. You could also declare war on the nation that the refugees are coming from if they don't get their citizens of your land. A bit sketchy but they could probably be worked upon.

The problem I see here is that refugees are not something that can be controlled by the refugees' own country or by your country, atleast not completely. They could not be stopped by either of you countries saying: "Please, don't become refugees". It should be something uncontrollable that would actually have very negative impact on the receiving nation as well as the source nation. Later they could of course become citizens to your country. Closing a border has no effect if you can't control the border, agreed?

Nations that are friendly with you or that are rich or whatever would have tourists. If you have a great wonder, then I guess tourists would come from almost everywhere. Nations that are at war with you or are not friendly or are poor wouldn't have tourists.

Ok, got it. I think the idea is fine, but it shouldn't perhaps be made so explicit. There should be just some numbers somewhere indicating the tourists, not any faces or something. Afterall, you can't control it (although you can stop it).

A new spy mission could reveal it. Maybe something like 'Investigate Sabotage' or something. Yeah, I guess you're right, it's similar to spies, but whatever, it's a new perspective to spy missions, I guess.

...and as such should be included in spying, not a thing related to tourism. But terrorists would be an interesting addition to the game...

Religion mainly. But I put those in as an example because I know that some people want a Mesopotamian culture group.

Okay. I can live with that :goodjob:
 
Originally posted by Shyrramar
The problem I see here is that refugees are not something that can be controlled by the refugees' own country or by your country, atleast not completely. They could not be stopped by either of you countries saying: "Please, don't become refugees". It should be something uncontrollable that would actually have very negative impact on the receiving nation as well as the source nation. Later they could of course become citizens to your country. Closing a border has no effect if you can't control the border, agreed?

OK, I see what you're getting at. Yeah, okay then, agreed. But then how do you control a border? Hmmm... I don't really know.
 
Originally posted by Manverulin
OK, I see what you're getting at. Yeah, okay then, agreed. But then how do you control a border? Hmmm... I don't really know.

It is a tough question. By forcing the player to control the border with actual units against refugee-units would be too tedious. I don't mean that the refugees should attack, by the way, but that the units could expel the refugees. Perhaps the mere presence of troops should have the effect of blocking the refugees? Perhaps a refugee could not bypass a unit (so putting a unit to every other tile would block the refugees). It is a hard thing to do without too much tedious micromanagement and trouble...
 
edit- This is a double post, so instead of just saying double post I will instead say my new avatar is neato. (I am not a girl by the way)
 
Just a thing, pollution doesn't change environment types irreversibly. )easy to clear if given half a century of no pollution time)
 
OK, here are my thoughts on immigration on refugees (for starters, anyway)

1) Immigration:
(i) Possible causes are-better culture, better wealth, better happiness, higher employment, lower crime and/or pollution better government and better technology. High war weariness in the other empire should increase the chance of immigration significantly. Cities must be on a trade network to recieve immigrants (and to lose emigrants)

(ii) Immigration should be intra-civ and inter-civ. i.e. can have movement of population between cities IN your civ, and between border cities of two different civs.

(iii) Gain of population in one city should come at the expense of a loss from the other city (so the wealthy, happy city of Boston gains population, but the poor, high-crime city of Washington loses population.

(iv) Should be possible to make Laws that can increase or decrease the chance of both inter- and intra-civ immigration. These Laws can impact on international reputation.

(v) S of L should be a Coastal Wonder, which can attract immigrants from ANY city, on ANY continent.

(vi) Pro's of Immigrants: Can boost productivity, population, happiness and culture (could even give you a one-off bonus to tech research!) Not to mention improving your international standing.

(vii) Con's of Immigrants: Could cause overcrowding and pollution. Also, if your city is growing TOO fast, then too many immigrants, too fast, might result in unemployment and/or crime for that city (think corruption and waste in Civ3). Might also increase the chance of a plague in the other civ reaching your own empire! In addition, if you have inspired Xenophobia (through your choice of laws etc) within your own civ, then immigrants might cause unhappiness!

2) Refugees:

(i) Are actual units-both ground and naval are possible.

(ii) Can appear as the result of massive war weariness, abandonment of cities and conquest/razing of cities.

(iii) As with Immigrants, certain laws and government types can make you more/less attractive to refugees.

(iv) When they reach a city, they will ask to become part of that city-if accepted, then they disappear, and the city gets the relevent amount of population. If refused, then they continue searching!

(v) Refugees can be dispelled/killed by other units-though this will damage your international standing!

(vi) refugees, when they enter cities, have many of the same pros/cons as immigrants!

Anyway, just a few thoughts. Like to know what people think.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
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