Map Creation issue: Forests

[Zechnophobe]

I'm not sure if this is something that really pertains to the mod exactly, but I do know that the normal map creation script really values forests far too highly for almost all civs. Forests are literally a death knell for non elf factions. Bronze working is a long ways off, and the difference between being able to put down a half dozen or so useable cottages early on, and having to tech to bronze first to get more than one or two, is cripplingly bad. At the very best, you spend a fair amount of time running around trying to find deforested areas with your initial settler.

Is this something that can be regulated within the mod?

Side note: I've noticed that as the Khazad, I almost *always* start near a 'gold'. It's horribly frustrating, and I"m curious if there's some legacy weighting code for them that causes this to happen, or if I'm just unlucky. (Not that gold is bad per se, but a different luxury would be awesome).

 

[Marksman77]

I believe it should go here and moreover it says this issue was addressed in one of the versions.

 

[Zechnophobe]

I'm not using the 'creation' map script, I'm simply talking about the process by which a map is 'created'.

 

[Marksman77]

ok, misunderstanding.
Have you tried FlavourMod? It seems to give nice results.

 

[westamastaflash]

Worst part is that civs that then start near floodplains have a insurmountable advntage early...

 

[Ringtailed]

I agree, starting in heavy forests are a balance issue. I might be wrong, but before BTS I think starting settlers ignored terrain movement costs and had an increased sight range that wasn't interrupted by forests or hills. That would help a good bit in finding a non-wooded place to settle.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Mm, no I don't think this was true. But currently starting settlers have +2 Move and like +4 vision.

The problem, is that the map generator 'balances' starts based on things it considers 'good'. It considers forests a 'good' thing to have around, meaning that if you get more forests, you'll get less resources and such. Not only will you be stuck till bronze working, but you'll not exactly be full of luxuries or what-what.

 

[westamastaflash]

Pre-BTS FFH settler ignored forests for sight range. BTS made forests block sight range.

 

[Viatos]

I agree, this is an incredibly annoying problem. Try playing Hemispheres - it doesn't forestrape me, consistently, which is pretty awesome.

Also consider playing with Blessing of Amathaon - it makes playing Kuriotates a lot easier, but otherwise it does help balance out the forest issue.

 

[Fafnir13]

My friend and I had the same trouble getting good starting locations during one game. Didn't help that I was being picky as we'd just quit a game where my starting location was just beautiful. Restarted a couple times even. Then I set the world to arid. I don't know if Floodplains require deserts in order to spawn, but it seemed to up their existence a bit. You might try that as a temporary fix.

 

[feydras]

I'm picky about start locations myself. It's the one area that i sorta 'cheat' on as i will dump a game quickly if the starting site bites.

What i've taken to doing is starting games in multiplayer hotseat with 2 or 3 Human players. Once i've started the game and decided which one i want to stick with i hit Alt Q during the turn of the others which converts them to AI. Then i play on as a single player game. Works well and would work in pitboss as well although not easily in a Direct IP or LAN game.

 

[Zechnophobe]

An idea for a 'common event' that could help ease forest issues:

Lumberjacks:

A group of lumberjacks offers to join your empire:

1) I'd rather not, pancakes aren't my thing.

2) He's a Lumberjack, and he's Okay! (Pay 25 Gold, get 1 Lumberjack)

3) Hire the entire group (Pay 50 gold, get 2 Lumberjacks)

Lumberjack unit is a Strength 2 melee unit that can chop down trees without bronze working. It doesn't do other worker actions however.

 

[schlalex]

Thats a really annoying problem indeed. And i care more about the Ai than me. Since i can beeline to BW when necessary, but the ai has usually different plans...
Meaning, the whole game is often very imba.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I really don't think that we need a lumberjack unit, and lumberjacks who don't use metal tools don't make sense. It could be nice for such an event to create a lumber mill though. It could require bronze working, even though the improvement would require iron working.

 

[LUEser]

Workers should be able to chop from day one, though very slowly and inefficiently, and with each upgrade in metals, would chop faster and more efficiently. No idea how that would work however..

 

[Gigaz]

The worst thing is that when the Fotl comes around very early and the damn elves spread it to every AI around, many forests turn into ancient forests long before the AI considers researching BW. And once the forest has turned ancient the AI will never cut it to build a cottage

 

[Zechnophobe]

I really don't think that we need a lumberjack unit, and lumberjacks who don't use metal tools don't make sense. It could be nice for such an event to create a lumber mill though. It could require bronze working, even though the improvement would require iron working.

I'm trying to solve a game play problem. Maybe the lumberjacks come with their own axes? Maybe they use crazy flapjack based magic? I just want a way to cut down trees without bronze working.

 

[Niveras]

In a previous thread on a similar issue, it was noted that some cultures were able to clear jungle using primitive stone axes and loops to help pull down the trees after they have been cut a little. It was not clear whether it was effective enough to clear entire regions.

 

[uberfish]

I agree that this is a problem that hampers the AI. Maybe we could allow forest clearing from the start, but make it not return any hammers until the advent of bronzeworking? The justification for that would be lack of suitable woodworking tools.

 

[Aeon221]

I really don't think that we need a lumberjack unit, and lumberjacks who don't use metal tools don't make sense. It could be nice for such an event to create a lumber mill though. It could require bronze working, even though the improvement would require iron working.

The tool used for cutting in the olden times was a stone adze, ground until sharp and tied to a handle. When cutting down a tree, first dig away the dirt so that the roots show, then cut down the tree. It would take one man almost a week to fell a tree; if many hands worked together, the tree could be felled in two days

http://pvs.kcc.hawaii.edu/buildkoakanu.html

Documents the manufacture of Hawaiian canoes; similar processes are obviously used elsewhere in Polynesian areas. No reason to assume that lumberjacking didn't occur in the absence of wood.