Map Making alows first ship?

[Az]

In civ II only by discovering map making can you build tireme.

That sounds strange because ships existed before map making...

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[Micah]

True, but triremes probably didn't. Maybe they should come up with a raft unit in civ3. Movement of 1, attack of 0, can only carry one unit.

 

[Az]

Exactly

An maybe the map should go off after exploration...

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[allhailIndia]

First of all I think it is ridiculous that the Trireme is only about as powerful as a Warrior. A ship like the Trireme should have stats like 3/2/3i.e. as powerful as a battalion of Archers.

 

[Az]

allhailIndia First of all I think it is ridiculous that the Trireme is only about as powerful as a Warrior. A ship like the Trireme should have stats like 3/2/3i.e. as powerful as a battalion of Archers.

Actually I think this is fair because tremes don't have canons or other weapons to conduct shore bombardements

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[thealien_83]

I still think the Trireme should be at the very least a TAD bit more powerful. They did often carry a bunch of archers or such onboard, so though not powerful I don't think they should be the kind of non-entity they are right now in any conflict.

After all, the city state of Athens managed to keep a stalemate in the Peleponnesian war against the well trained soldiers of Sparta, and how well would THAT work in Civ I ask you?

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Originally posted by thealien_83:
I still think the Trireme should be at the very least a TAD bit more powerful. They did often carry a bunch of archers or such onboard, so though not powerful I don't think they should be the kind of non-entity they are right now in any conflict.

Maybe I'm missing something, but can't you put archers on your civ triremes? Were the real triremes used as shore "bombardment" and naval battle, or basically glorified troop transport. It sounds like they're about right.

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DEATH awaits you all...with nasty, big, pointy teeth.

 

[Micah]

Triremes were powerful naval vessels in their day, and were used as ships of war. However they were definitely not used for shore bombardment. I think that 1/1 is appropriate 'cause it still makes it the most powerful naval vessel of its time.

 

[Supernaut]

I agree. The 1/1 score means that each trireme is as good as any other, but will get blown away when anything stronger comes along.

A more interesting variant would be to allow troops being transported by one trireme to board and capture another.

As for the Athens/Sparta war - surely Athens was a democracy and therefore had an advantage over Sparta, which was a despotism?
Anway, didn't Athens eventually lose the Peloponnesian War? Or am I getting confused with another war?

 

[Micah]

Athens got its ass kicked in the Pelopennesian war. I wouldn't say that the different government forms put either Athens or Sparta at than much of an advantage over the other. Athens had a powerful navy and built up the best trading empire in ancient Greece because of it. Sparta had weak navy but was known for its powerful army. Everybody in Sparta was in the army, that's how the word Spartan came about. When allied together they did kick some serious Persian ass however.

 

[Az]

Hey! Talking about Greece without me?

Originally posted by thealien_83

After all, the city state of Athens managed to keep a stalemate in the Peleponnesian war against the well trained soldiers of Sparta, and how well would THAT work in Civ I ask you?

Well Athens had the most powerful navy durring all the peloponesian war. But this navy wasn't used against sparta itself but against it allies.That because Sparta had no navy of it's own as the city of Sparta is invery far away from the sea. Athens used it's navy mostly to threaten other "contries" in the agean not to join Sparta.

Originally posted by Supernaut

As for the Athens/Sparta war - surely Athens was a democracy and therefore had an advantage over Sparta, which was a despotism?
Anway, didn't Athens eventually lose the Peloponnesian War? Or am I getting confused with another

Athens actually won the Peloponesian warbut both Sparta and Athens were exausted. In fact both cities' population was restricted to children an women. The only difference is that after that war Sparta never appeared as agreat power again while Athens experienced some more moments of glory-which were nothing comparing to the golden century.

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[Micah]

Perhaps a more accurate way to put it would be to say that the Peloppenesian war was a series of wars between Athens and Sparta that eventually exhausted both states eventually paving the way for the rise of other states such as Macedonia.

 

[SlowwHand]

Originally posted by allhailIndia:
First of all I think it is ridiculous that the Trireme is only about as powerful as a Warrior. A ship like the Trireme should have stats like 3/2/3i.e. as powerful as a battalion of Archers.

You're joking , right?




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It's In The Way That You Use It

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[thealien_83]

Damnit Az, I was hoping to avoid drawing the attention of people who know that stuff better than myself!

No, seriously, I am far from an expert on the subject, and I will, without doubt, take your word for it. As for what Tim says sure you can put archers on them, but not far anything other than transporting. But the idea of boarding would be a nice one, whomever suggested it.

But seeing as how everyone can add something I didn't I feel a need to say *something* productive, so here goes...

Micah, as for as I know ( which by no means need be correct...

) the word "Spartan" actually refers to the "social" part of Spartan society, the fact that no man would own anything he did not *need* ( such as weapons, armor and food for the day (( consisting of some gross blackroot soup or whatnot )). So refering to something being Spartan is somewhat akin to "sparse" or whatever. The point might be a bit stale, my english ain't *the* best...

 

[Az]

>>>Micah

Perhaps a more accurate way to put it would be to say that the Peloppenesian war was a series of wars between Athens and Sparta that eventually exhausted both states eventually paving the way for the rise of other states such as Macedonia.

You got it.

BUT

>>>Micah

When allied together they did kick some serious Persian ass however.

Here I think you're wrong.



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[Az]

In Ancient Greece three great battles were held between the Greeks and the Persians...

Marathon
Salamina
Thermopylae

Just for the reccord the last one - Thermopyles in greek - means the "Warm Gates". Warm because of the warm baths that were very famous at that time - and still exist - and gates because of the mountains that looked like gates (gates to Greece I think)

So I said you're wrong because as far as I know in none of these three battles did the Spartans and the Athenians fight together on the same battlefield.

In Marathon Athens fought with an army of 20.000 - plus 1.000 allies - against the 200.000 Persians and won.

In the battle of Thermopylae 1.100 greeks - 800 M.... well I can't remember the name - and 300 Spartans. After the 800 died slowly Leonidas - that's right the Belgian chocolates took the name - and his 300 men lasted as long as they could. The strategy was simple: They fortified theselves in the narrow pass. Every time the Persians attemted an attack about 10-20 men went out of the small fort and killed as many as possible. This costed about 50 casualties and injured to the persians for each attack while the spartans were loosing about 1 or 2 each time. The lasted for days until a greek traitor called Ephialtes shoed to the persians the way to surround the mountains and catch the deffenders from the back. So they did. The spartans all died and the Persians reached Athens in a few days after that and burned it.
Today the word Ephialtes - in modern Greek as well - means nightmare.

The battle of Salamina - which was a Naval battle where Sparta didn't take part - was won by the powerful Athenian fleet. After that battle the persians, who had no fleet anymore left Athens. Xerxes left Greece disappointed and died a few years later. The great Persian army that could not be evacuated anymore remained stationed a few miles north of Attica - region arround Athens. Next year all the Greeks united together defeated this great army. Here I think that Athenians and Spartans fought together but just for a little.

Sattisfied?

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[thealien_83]

Yeah,that sounds about correct. All the names and such ring correctly, though I myself would never have remembered which one's which and exactly how they happened and whatnot. Still, it is rather amazing the way the greeks defeated the persians over and over with SIGNIFICANTLY smaller armies...

Why haven't I seen a scenario for Civ depicting Ancient Greece? With the wars against the Persians, the Peleponnesian Wars and such?

 

[Az]

That's a fine idea!

Well if there isn't any I (or we) could make one...

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[thealien_83]

We could indeed. Not that I'm an especially good scenario-maker, but for such a nice motive I might be able to put what little creative parts my brain hides to use... We'll have to talk more about that later on!

 

[Micah]

That is very satisfactory Az. Good descriptions.