Map Making alows first ship?

[Az]

There are too things I forgot to tell:

1: The Greek loses were 192 men. (I think that number says it all)

2: Now here's something that very few people know about...

The battle of marathon wasn't meant to be the main battle in the Persians' plans. By landing massively in Marathon they wanted to make the Greeks believe that this was the major attack...We must not forget that the Persians' goal was to take Athens. This would certainly not be achieved by landing in Marathon which is near to Athens on the map but is separated by the Pendeli mountains. So the Marathon battle was meant to attrack the Athens' deffenders far away from the city so that it remained defenceless. After the battle and even though they had suffered many losses they decided to follow their plan. They took their ships (leaving seven of them behind) and pretended they were leaving. But a Greek great general understood what was about to happen. So he took his exhausted men and decided to reach Falyron where he thought that the Persians would land. After an eight hour walk he reached the site before the ships (!) .

We know that the battle of marathon started at about 8:30 am. It lasted 3 hours which means that it had ended by 12:00 so now at about 6:00 pm (18:00) the Athenians wariors were in Falyron. The Persian ships arrived about at the same time. But this time the Persians are so surprised that they decided not to even make the attempt of landing and left for Asia...

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[Archbob]

I think the Trimeme is good where it is. I mean frigates and even destroyers are only 4/4 and they can wreak havok on shore cities. It just wouldn't seem right for a treme to be wreaking havoc.

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[thealien_83]

* reads through Az's posts *

Damn man, is there no end to your knowledge on the subect?!

 

[Henrik]

Originally posted by thealien_83:

Why haven't I seen a scenario for Civ depicting Ancient Greece? With the wars against the Persians, the Peleponnesian Wars and such?

Ever heard of John Ellis Hellas scenario?

In that scenario you play one of the greek city states competing whit the others (not only Sparta and Athens but also Corinth and Thebes, etc, etc) and eventually you get invaded by the persians...

 

[Az]

thealien_83

* reads through Az's posts *

Damn man, is there no end to your knowledge on the subect?!

Thanks!

It's interesting to see that without that general's idea the battle of Marathon would have been known for ever as the most useless and stupid heroic victory of all time since the persians would have taken Athens in no time...!


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[thealien_83]

It is indeed... and about that Hellas scenario I will indeed have to try it sometime soon.

 

[Valdy]

Get back to the top

 

[moof]

AZ,

just wanted to say thanks for the history lesson we found it very interesting,
informative and way to short. We are amazed at the amount of times we can
pick out a Mac user without them saying anything about Macs.
<IMG src=http://www.storybytes.com/images/a-moof/moof-mind.gif>




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TTFNFm & MTFBWY moof

" Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity,

and I'm not sure about the former. " - Albert Einstein

 

[The Last Conformist]

I'd just point out that Sparta actually did win the Peloponnesian War, altho' at great cost. They were even able to impose a new government upon the Athenians (the one of the Thirty Tyrants). A decade or so later, however, the Spartans were defeated by the Thebans, who in turn were defeated by a league of pretty much everyone else, whereafter Athens regained much influence until the battle of Chaironeia, in which the Athenian and Theban armies (alliances changed quickly) got pretty much wiped out by the Macedonians, which lead to most Greek states (tho' not including Sparta) become dependents of Macedon. Eventually, of course, everyone got gobbled up by Rome.

 

[Az]

This is a map I found of the two Alliances:

<IMG SRC="http://www.fhw.gr/chronos/05/images/politics/evolution/ph27b_en.jpg" border=0>

And this is from another site:

Peloponnesian War

(431-404 BC), war fought between the two leading city-states in ancient Greece, Athens and Sparta. Each stood at the head of alliances that, between them, included nearly every Greek city-state. The fighting engulfed virtually the entire Greek world, and it was properly regarded by Thucydides, whose contemporary account of it is considered to be among the world's finest works of history, as the most momentous war up to that time.


The Athenian alliance was, in fact, an empire that included most of the island and coastal states around the northern and eastern shores of the Aegean Sea. Sparta was leader of an alliance of independent states that included most of the major land powers of the Peloponnese and central Greece, as well as the sea power Corinth. Thus, the Athenians had the stronger navy and the Spartans the stronger army. Further, the Athenians were better prepared financially than their enemies, owing to the large war chest they had amassed from the regular tribute they received from their empire.


Athens and Sparta had fought each other before the outbreak of the Great Peloponnesian War (in what is sometimes called the First Peloponnesian War) but had agreed to a truce, called the Thirty Years' Treaty, in 445. In the following years their respective blocs observed an uneasy peace. The events that led to renewed hostilities began in 433, when Athens allied itself with Corcyra, a strategically important colony of Corinth. Fighting ensued, and the Athenians then took steps that explicitly violated the Thirty Years' Treaty. Sparta and its allies accused Athens of aggression and threatened war.


On the advice of Pericles, its most influential leader, Athens refused to back down. Diplomatic efforts to resolve the dispute failed. Finally, in the spring of 431, a Spartan ally, Thebes, attacked an Athenian ally, Plataea, and open war began.


The years of fighting that followed can be divided into two periods, separated by a truce of six years. The first period lasted 10 years and began with the Spartans, under Archidamus, leading an army into Attica, the region around Athens. Pericles declined to engage the superior allied forces and instead urged the Athenians to keep to their city and make full use of their naval superiority by harassing their enemies' coasts and shipping. Within a few months, however, Pericles fell victim to a terrible plague that raged through the crowded city, killing a large part of its army as well as many civilians. Thucydides survived an attack of the plague and left a vivid account of its impact on Athenian morale. In the meantime (430-429), the Spartans attacked Athenian bases in western Greece but were repulsed. The Spartans also suffered reverses at sea. In 428 they tried to aid the island state of Lesbos, a tributary of Athens that was planning to revolt. But the revolt was headed off by the Athenians, who won control of the chief city, Mytilene. Urged on by the demagogue Cleon, the Athenians voted to massacre the men of Mytilene and enslave everyone else, but they relented the next day and killed only the leaders of the revolt. Spartan initiatives during the plague years were all unsuccessful except for the capture of the strategic city Plataea in 427.


In the next few years the Athenians took the offensive. They attacked the Sicilian city Syracuse and campaigned in western Greece and the Peloponnese itself. In 425 the picture was bleak for Sparta, which began to sue for peace. But led by Brasidas, hero of the Battle of Delium, a Spartan force gained important successes in Chalcidice in 424, encouraging Athenian subject states to revolt. In a decisive battle at Amphipolis in 422, both Brasidas and the Athenian leader Cleon were killed. This set the stage for Cleon's rival Nicias to persuade the Athenians to accept the Spartans' offer of peace.


The so-called Peace of Nicias began in 421 and lasted six years. It was a period in which diplomatic maneuvers gradually gave way to small-scale military operations as each city tried to win smaller states over to its side. The uncertain peace was finally shattered when, in 415, the Athenians launched a massive assault against Sicily. The next 11 years made up the war's second period of fighting. The decisive event was the catastrophe suffered by the Athenians in Sicily. Aided by a force of Spartans, Syracuse was able to break an Athenian blockade. Even after gaining reinforcements in 413, the Athenian army was defeated again. Soon afterward the navy was also beaten, and the Athenians were utterly destroyed as they tried to retreat. (See Sicilian Expedition.)


By 411 Athens itself was in political turmoil. Democracy was overthrown by the oligarchical party, which was in turn replaced by the more moderate regime of the Five Thousand. At the end of 411 the rebuilt Athenian navy, fresh from several victories, acted to restore democratic rule. However, the democratic leaders refused Spartan peace offerings, and the war continued at sea with the Spartan and Athenian fleets trading costly victories. The end came in 405 when the Athenian navy was destroyed at Aegospotami by the Spartan fleet under Lysander, who had received much aid from the Persians. The next year, starved by an impenetrable blockade, Athens capitulated. Athens' defeat was perhaps the worst casualty in a war that crippled Greek military strength, and thus the most culturally advanced Greek state was brought into final eclipse.

(you are right the spartans won)

And moof thanks for your kind words.

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ICQ: 1140 52552 * Yahoo Messenger: az_gr * MSN: az_gr@hotline.com
E-mail: azgr@mac.com

 

[Supernaut]

WOW! Thanks Az, and everyone else who's contributed - really helped clarify a bit of history I'm pretty shaky on (my brother did ancient history, I was more medieval and modern). I shall have to get a copy of Thucidides (sp?).

It was interesting to read in Az's potted history many parallels to Civ gameplay - like Athens having built up a huge war chest from 'tribute to its patience' and aggresive behaviour leading to the other side attacking. But the Athenian democracy was much more belligerent than in Civ - can we have Peicles as a great leader to keep the senate under control please?

 

[moof]

Wowser,Zowie & Coolarama,

We sure are glad we stopped back by for an update!!!
It looks as if you certainly covered it from <FONT size="4">A</FONT s>2<FONT size="4">Z</FONT s>
Let's see what's left,... Oh yes, Does Oozo really taste like licorice?

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TTFNFm & MTFBWY moof

" Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity,

and I'm not sure about the former. " - Albert Einstein

[This message has been edited by moof (edited August 28, 2001).]

 

[Az]

I don't know if I ever told you guys that I live near Marathon...

I'll try to post a picture that I have of the bay where the persians disembarked. It may be interesting for some of you...

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ICQ: 1140 52552 * Yahoo Messenger: az_gr * MSN: az_gr@hotline.com
E-mail: azgr@mac.com