muxec
Prince
FFH is almost exactly what I expected from Master of Magic 2. It is so complicated I'm tempted to call it "differently balanced" cause you can't call something that huge "unbalanced"
Master of magic 2.
- Thread starter muxec
- Start date
Rystic
Turtle Wizard
I think I once heard someone say it was balanced without parallels.
JonathanStrange
PrinceWithA1000Enemies
Once, at Khazad-dhum, a dwarf having consumed a magnificent quantity of ale, got up on a table and starting making a mocking speech about Fall From Heaven's justice - a tale that had Kael been present he doubtless would have taken exception to, so I challenged the dwarf to a duel outside the Blue Bottle Tavern. He'll never make that mistake again.
Though sometimes, I admit I have my doubts about the balance too...
Lgaard
King
If we are reffering to Master of Magic, I miss Myrran a bit. Would be great to have a parallel universe with hell terrain in it, foul magic allowing to travel between worlds...
Humakty
Happy Goblin
Yeah, well, balanced isn't exactly da word I would use... Playing calab or elves, then going back to the Clan is, uh, harsh...
ArkhanTheBlack
Warlord
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2008
- Messages
- 153
FFH2 and master of magic are very different:
1.) MOM has a battle mode which is a very important part of the game. FFH2 battles are very simplistic.
2.) MOM is a lot more fast paced since you can choose your techs (spell books) at the start and you don't have a zillion city buildings and world wonders to build. Basic techs like streets and mining are also available from the start (If I remember right...). I could finish a MoM game in half a day, FFH2 games can easily take weeks if you want to see some advanced teching stuff.
3.) You can end the game with a world domination spell when the game reaches the annoying phase. (I rarely finish a FFH2 game because the end game usually gets to repetitive.)
4.) MoM has artefact creation.
5.) Magic systems are completely different.
In general FFH2 is a lot more complex in the economic part. (Special resources, synergies with buildings, great persons, etc.)
1.) MOM has a battle mode which is a very important part of the game. FFH2 battles are very simplistic.
2.) MOM is a lot more fast paced since you can choose your techs (spell books) at the start and you don't have a zillion city buildings and world wonders to build. Basic techs like streets and mining are also available from the start (If I remember right...). I could finish a MoM game in half a day, FFH2 games can easily take weeks if you want to see some advanced teching stuff.
3.) You can end the game with a world domination spell when the game reaches the annoying phase. (I rarely finish a FFH2 game because the end game usually gets to repetitive.)
4.) MoM has artefact creation.
5.) Magic systems are completely different.
In general FFH2 is a lot more complex in the economic part. (Special resources, synergies with buildings, great persons, etc.)
Doug Piranha
Warlord
MoM's battle screen was one of the best parts of the game, although the AI was completely clueless. The scheme for determining hit/miss and amount of damage had a nice level of mathematical complexity.
The only thing workers could build in MoM was roads, and only 4 races could even build workers (called engineers, I think). It was possible to win the game with the starting spells, but researching new spells was very important if you didn't pick some extremely specialized (or overpowered) set of starting spellbooks. Research was interesting because it was non-linear and random.
Out of hundreds of games, I *never* cast the Tower of Mastery spell. I liked to build lots of cities, and the game got very slow and repetitive, just like FFH can.
A cool idea, but it didn't fit with my style. Again, lots of exploits possible.
Definitely. MoM's magic system was quite imbalanced, but a huge part of the game. Lots of fun combinations were possible.
Agreed.
1) The AI was terrible, and there were some game-crashing bugs.
2) The ability to build other races' units was cool (essentially, all races in MoM had the FFH "tolerant" trait).
3) As mentioned above, the battle system was very interesting, and would have been much more so if the AI had been better.
4) The game was much too random. You could get a game-winning mage, spell, or artifact from a relatively weak lair; early game barbs could kill you with no chance to defeat them; starting locations ranged from impossible to incredibly easy.
5) Balance was pretty poor. It was much easier to win with certain races and strategies.
creating a battle screen mod has alot of interesting decisions in its development. For instance, will units be separated into many smaller parts? or using a number counter to keep track of how many "guys" it has in it. Also, turn based or real time? turnbased enters the possibility of excessive micromanagement, while the current way of tracking units gives an ultimatum "do or die" mentality on unit deaths, which makes real time control frustrating unless units were not automatically killed.
Personally I prefer the real time tactical battle similar to as its seen in the Total War series. Ill have to think of the best way to merge the two ^_^
honestly, more controlled tech progression, allowing multiple epochs, and the ability to create/destroy cities, farms and roads, seems to be the best way to merge, although that would imply a mod of total war as opposed to a mod of civ .... although the total war coding is messy and buggy, while civ 4 is insanely easy to mod. My conclusion is to wait for a better engine + a better system of coding .... I want the perfect technology!
Im really interested in the developments being made by the people from Elemental .... although that is almost a whole year away
....
In the meantime I will try to help make FFH MP the best it can under the current rules of the game. Including making maps ^_^
Personally I prefer the real time tactical battle similar to as its seen in the Total War series. Ill have to think of the best way to merge the two ^_^
honestly, more controlled tech progression, allowing multiple epochs, and the ability to create/destroy cities, farms and roads, seems to be the best way to merge, although that would imply a mod of total war as opposed to a mod of civ .... although the total war coding is messy and buggy, while civ 4 is insanely easy to mod. My conclusion is to wait for a better engine + a better system of coding .... I want the perfect technology!
Im really interested in the developments being made by the people from Elemental .... although that is almost a whole year away
.... In the meantime I will try to help make FFH MP the best it can under the current rules of the game. Including making maps ^_^
Lgaard
King
De gustibus non est disputandum, but I would hate if Civilization series ever drifted onto 'tactical' or 'real_time' reef.
Randolph
Warlord
I've been hoping for some time that the popularity of Fall From Heaven might instill some interest in game developers to produce a real Master of Magic 2, but AFAIK there's been no signs that it actually has.
FFH2 is amazing, but there's still plenty of room for a MoM2.
FFH2 is amazing, but there's still plenty of room for a MoM2.
I realize their could be disfavor into adding real-time or battle maps into Civ ... although I think it could allow for deminishing returns on having a huge superstack all in one location. I would rather players use several armies spread throughout the map than one super stack ... although this would only be favorable if you could only control so many "units" on the real time map, ect. Their is a mod people have that gains a "crowding" feature to make stacked units weaker ... but that penalizes people that would be able to set the weaker units out as fodder while the elite units come along and flank. Or vice versa. Either way ... I think adding a battle map strategy to your hordes of orcs, windriders, or mage casters and archers, would be VERY interesting 
.... imagine fire mages with channeling two sending huge fireballs that could fly almost halfway across the map, and act like flaming catapult missiles. Or how the earthquake spell could break the enemy's formation, and give a bonus to ROK units moving over such shaking terrain.
How religious units of your state religion give a great morale bonus to nearby troops, and the actual morale bonus increases something like extra HP temporarily, allowing them to overcome insane archer fire, for instance.
Also ... giving archers and other missile troops a more proper role in combat, and allowing for a much wider variability in troop strength in general. For instance, the civilized Romans had weak arrows but the wild Gualls had powerful long distance archers that excelled in mellee almost as much as they do range. It allows for hiding in woods, up until the enemy is right in front of you ... It allows for hidden units to be invisible as long as they dont move, and for true invisibility to not be revealed, but to give an on screen alert to the enemy ... (we are being attacked by the air, phantoms it seems!!) or something.
Also, walls and palisades would grant a much wider use ... with palisades guarding the city square in the middle (often on a hill) and then the walls are the large outer defense. It also allows for multiple levels of walls to be enabled without being too "overpowered" because they can be overcome with the right strategies ... not just bringing "enough catapults" to breach through the entire defense at once, but to be able to peck away at one section of wall, and make a path through the walls, or, if you bring enough siege, to simply destroy as much section as possible. Also, it could control alot more which buildings are destroyed, if you wish for buildings to be displayed on the battlemap ... the more you use catapults the more buildings will be destroyed. Of course, if a wonder is damaged maybe even you could add the repair mechanic, (perhaps use a place holder for damaged wonder, allowing said wonder to be "built" again with turns and hammers.
If you added units to represent more than one person (say 50) ... then you can "retrain" units with gold, and say 1 pop for every 100 men retrained to fill the ranks. Also, maybe the units experience only affects the captain of the unit, and the rest of the guys recieve a lesser effect. Also, units of the goblin or orc race can add together to vastly exceed the 50 man cap ... so they can have more shock troops on the ground during a battle.
The exception would probably be arcane units and heroes, who would usually be one unit representing the person, as well as a small contingent of helpers.
- an adept would be surrounded by students "peasants"
- a mage would be surrounded by adepts
- an archmage would be surrouned by mages
and then you could give a few minor autocast spells for the arcane to use while hand to hand fighting, as well as a staff and a decent melee combat rank, and decent HP as well (close to a commander or a hero's hp, but of course little to no defense)
The hero units themselves would be much more powerful in comparison than they are now ... probably able to destroy half of a realtime army by themselves if not overwhelmed properly (if they have time to attack each one by one)
Mounted units would be less numbers (30?) and have an added charge bonus ... and units with the formation promos will have an extra spear weapon they can switch to with a button, or even a universal button at the bottom of the screen to activate several promotions that are aquired. (cover could allow better defense in forests from arrows, or provide small sheilds, most likely depending on the unit)
For horses the anti archer promotion button would probably make them spread out and raise small shields over their heads. Of course, having stamina would be wonderful as well, and haste could prevent stamina from being lost, and regeneration could actually regain stamina to full health, and maybe even a little beyond, like a (hyper) status or something.
I'm getting at that each unit will have a walk and a run type ... any units routing would also be using the run type ... to run away.
Perhaps then certain casters, arcane and divine, could have a certain amount of "amunition" for their spells, and the reloading time will be the casting/spell chant. Of course it would be disrupted by melee combat ... but the combat promotions would help casting to not be interrupted. For instance, combat V would make like a 50% chance (or more) that the spell still completes, and for religious spells it would be a much higher chance.
I also think it would be cool for archers to gain the ability to shoot an enemy's hawk down. and then the enemy can use an "aquire hawk" onscreen spell which will buy/get another hawk to use, and take time, like 3-5x the normal archer reload time or something.
Perhaps civs with a bonus to certain units could have a slightly greater number allowed in troops of that type, in addition to the usual bonuses if applicable. (for instance the withdraw rate would not be applicable, except for the ability to disengage from melee with minimal loss of life. While movement or greater attack/charge value would be easily enabled. I'm not sure how the blitz promotion could be transferred, except for a very high stamina rating, with a quick natural recovery. As well as the blitz allowing for multiple offensive battlemaps in one turn.
.... imagine fire mages with channeling two sending huge fireballs that could fly almost halfway across the map, and act like flaming catapult missiles. Or how the earthquake spell could break the enemy's formation, and give a bonus to ROK units moving over such shaking terrain. How religious units of your state religion give a great morale bonus to nearby troops, and the actual morale bonus increases something like extra HP temporarily, allowing them to overcome insane archer fire, for instance.
Also ... giving archers and other missile troops a more proper role in combat, and allowing for a much wider variability in troop strength in general. For instance, the civilized Romans had weak arrows but the wild Gualls had powerful long distance archers that excelled in mellee almost as much as they do range. It allows for hiding in woods, up until the enemy is right in front of you ... It allows for hidden units to be invisible as long as they dont move, and for true invisibility to not be revealed, but to give an on screen alert to the enemy ... (we are being attacked by the air, phantoms it seems!!) or something.
Also, walls and palisades would grant a much wider use ... with palisades guarding the city square in the middle (often on a hill) and then the walls are the large outer defense. It also allows for multiple levels of walls to be enabled without being too "overpowered" because they can be overcome with the right strategies ... not just bringing "enough catapults" to breach through the entire defense at once, but to be able to peck away at one section of wall, and make a path through the walls, or, if you bring enough siege, to simply destroy as much section as possible. Also, it could control alot more which buildings are destroyed, if you wish for buildings to be displayed on the battlemap ... the more you use catapults the more buildings will be destroyed. Of course, if a wonder is damaged maybe even you could add the repair mechanic, (perhaps use a place holder for damaged wonder, allowing said wonder to be "built" again with turns and hammers.
If you added units to represent more than one person (say 50) ... then you can "retrain" units with gold, and say 1 pop for every 100 men retrained to fill the ranks. Also, maybe the units experience only affects the captain of the unit, and the rest of the guys recieve a lesser effect. Also, units of the goblin or orc race can add together to vastly exceed the 50 man cap ... so they can have more shock troops on the ground during a battle.
The exception would probably be arcane units and heroes, who would usually be one unit representing the person, as well as a small contingent of helpers.
- an adept would be surrounded by students "peasants"
- a mage would be surrounded by adepts
- an archmage would be surrouned by mages
and then you could give a few minor autocast spells for the arcane to use while hand to hand fighting, as well as a staff and a decent melee combat rank, and decent HP as well (close to a commander or a hero's hp, but of course little to no defense)
The hero units themselves would be much more powerful in comparison than they are now ... probably able to destroy half of a realtime army by themselves if not overwhelmed properly (if they have time to attack each one by one)
Mounted units would be less numbers (30?) and have an added charge bonus ... and units with the formation promos will have an extra spear weapon they can switch to with a button, or even a universal button at the bottom of the screen to activate several promotions that are aquired. (cover could allow better defense in forests from arrows, or provide small sheilds, most likely depending on the unit)
For horses the anti archer promotion button would probably make them spread out and raise small shields over their heads. Of course, having stamina would be wonderful as well, and haste could prevent stamina from being lost, and regeneration could actually regain stamina to full health, and maybe even a little beyond, like a (hyper) status or something.
I'm getting at that each unit will have a walk and a run type ... any units routing would also be using the run type ... to run away.
Perhaps then certain casters, arcane and divine, could have a certain amount of "amunition" for their spells, and the reloading time will be the casting/spell chant. Of course it would be disrupted by melee combat ... but the combat promotions would help casting to not be interrupted. For instance, combat V would make like a 50% chance (or more) that the spell still completes, and for religious spells it would be a much higher chance.
I also think it would be cool for archers to gain the ability to shoot an enemy's hawk down. and then the enemy can use an "aquire hawk" onscreen spell which will buy/get another hawk to use, and take time, like 3-5x the normal archer reload time or something.
Perhaps civs with a bonus to certain units could have a slightly greater number allowed in troops of that type, in addition to the usual bonuses if applicable. (for instance the withdraw rate would not be applicable, except for the ability to disengage from melee with minimal loss of life. While movement or greater attack/charge value would be easily enabled. I'm not sure how the blitz promotion could be transferred, except for a very high stamina rating, with a quick natural recovery. As well as the blitz allowing for multiple offensive battlemaps in one turn.
muxec
Prince
In MOM1 crowding was solved by nine per tile limit.
A large tactical screen with no crowding limit, where the decisive battle of any MP war generally happens over the course of one turn (but has been known to take longer ... nonetheless each army is stacked upon ONE square), and where speed and withrdrawal are two separate functions.
( I prefer where faster units have a higher chance of withdrawal, but the longer you remained locked in melee combat, the less likely withdrawal is)
I have definitely enjoyed this mod, and thank its creators. I wish the AI knew sacrificial tactics like many humans now know. It has something to do with the amount of fodder it takes to, on average, get a "lucky strike" against the enemy. If your "lucky strikes" are equal to the enemy's number of power units, and you add one more fodder point for each fodder in their possesion, then you strike. I would like to learn how to modify the AI.
I have heard the AI have been known to struggle with "where to attack" or "where to send the troops." In general that would be the centerpoint in the map where the largest concentration of enemy troops have been spotted. One your army is vastly outsized theirs, make the AI build a giant stack, and go for "usually" the biggest city. ALthough, if it doesnt have any seige, go for the nearest, less culture/walled city. Also, the AI, if in general outmatched, should probably raze cities of another religion, and Hyborem should always Raze if he has more than 4 cities. Also, Hyborem should not build settlers, unless his economy can support it, he is not threatened by an invading army, and there is "plenty" of empty map space.
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