Master of Myrror Fantasy Mod 2.0
- Thread starter Drift
- Start date
Freya report continued:
City number 2 and 3 of Ariel fall to the Freyan armies. Both had around 10 defenders including 4-5 of the monk units. Those were a pain and I took enough casualites at it was with giants (8-4-1). I don't want to even think of what it would be like trying to take those out with just the earth elementals (6-4-1). My army remains in good shape, despite taking some losses. I have 3 armies of giants now and one of Ettins.
The pressure is off of Oberic from Ariel now, but Oberic is still at war with several civs including Lo Pan, who has been massing quite the armada of ships including the fire ship, so I know he has Chaos 9 for tech. (I am still working on the 6's). Oberic and Ariel have been skirmishing a bit, but nothing like they were before. Oberic is now trying to fend off Lo Pan's piecemeal landings while Ariel is dealing with me.
Ariel is still not fielding the wizards (lucky for me) so the toughest defenders she has are 4 pointers and my giants have been able to play "batter up" with them and in general, give a good account of themselves. I am more sold on the air transport now as it is very useful in shuttling troops around to hot spots and I am now using them offensively by dropping units into good terrain next to enemy cities. I don't know if the AI would use these effectively or not, but a player can find several uses for them.
On the other hand, I find the men units to be about worthless. I could do Men 3 and get a 5-5-1 4 pip unit, or I can do earth elementals at 6-4-1 that have 5 pips. Granted, the 5-5-1 is 60 and the elemental is 80, but still. The men, although amphibious, are too weak to deal with any type of city defence. They seem to be something that you build en-mass and try to swamp an opponent with and while you take your losses, there are so many of them, that eventually you win. Perhaps they don't fit my style of play that well so I don't know that I have any suggestions for them.
City number 2 and 3 of Ariel fall to the Freyan armies. Both had around 10 defenders including 4-5 of the monk units. Those were a pain and I took enough casualites at it was with giants (8-4-1). I don't want to even think of what it would be like trying to take those out with just the earth elementals (6-4-1). My army remains in good shape, despite taking some losses. I have 3 armies of giants now and one of Ettins.
The pressure is off of Oberic from Ariel now, but Oberic is still at war with several civs including Lo Pan, who has been massing quite the armada of ships including the fire ship, so I know he has Chaos 9 for tech. (I am still working on the 6's). Oberic and Ariel have been skirmishing a bit, but nothing like they were before. Oberic is now trying to fend off Lo Pan's piecemeal landings while Ariel is dealing with me.
Ariel is still not fielding the wizards (lucky for me) so the toughest defenders she has are 4 pointers and my giants have been able to play "batter up" with them and in general, give a good account of themselves. I am more sold on the air transport now as it is very useful in shuttling troops around to hot spots and I am now using them offensively by dropping units into good terrain next to enemy cities. I don't know if the AI would use these effectively or not, but a player can find several uses for them.
On the other hand, I find the men units to be about worthless. I could do Men 3 and get a 5-5-1 4 pip unit, or I can do earth elementals at 6-4-1 that have 5 pips. Granted, the 5-5-1 is 60 and the elemental is 80, but still. The men, although amphibious, are too weak to deal with any type of city defence. They seem to be something that you build en-mass and try to swamp an opponent with and while you take your losses, there are so many of them, that eventually you win. Perhaps they don't fit my style of play that well so I don't know that I have any suggestions for them.
Drift
It's a boy!
Thank you everyone for the resource discussion and tests. Especially big 'thank you' goes to Psyringe for hunting down that article by embryodead. Based on his formula, my earlier 240 gave 1.8 nodes per player. With 300 it became 1.95. I'm now looking at reducing that number. Since less units require nodes now, it might not be a bad idea to go back to the earlier 240.
@TLC
- I checked all city names for extra spaces and there are none of those left now.
- Two lizardmen. Nice to see what AI offers for the other.
@Klyden
- Redeployment for the bird units is problematic when it eliminates the need for ships... It will probably have to go.
- I'm going to make Centaurs upgrade to Griffins and turn the latter into an offensive unit. My current, tentative stats are 8.3.3 ignores movement penalty on mountains, hills and swamps. However, this unit would be very high in the tech tree so it may not help at all with the cents as the player doesn't have any of them left when he reaches the Griffin. I'll have to reconsider this a bit more.
- Wizards will probably end up as 3.5.2 units with 10 shields shaved off the pricetag.
- Rushing wonders with great leaders has been disabled in C3C. Only scientific leaders can rush wonders. Great leaders can rush other stuff though. Or was it a sci leader you had?
- Nice to see the Warrior Monks in action. It would be interesting to know if their stats feel right.
@Everyone
Thank you again for your activity. I have found it hard to keep up at times and that's definitely a good sign.
I will probably release a tweak patch next week, but it's still uncertain.
@TLC
- I checked all city names for extra spaces and there are none of those left now.
- Two lizardmen. Nice to see what AI offers for the other.
@Klyden
- Redeployment for the bird units is problematic when it eliminates the need for ships... It will probably have to go.
- I'm going to make Centaurs upgrade to Griffins and turn the latter into an offensive unit. My current, tentative stats are 8.3.3 ignores movement penalty on mountains, hills and swamps. However, this unit would be very high in the tech tree so it may not help at all with the cents as the player doesn't have any of them left when he reaches the Griffin. I'll have to reconsider this a bit more.
- Wizards will probably end up as 3.5.2 units with 10 shields shaved off the pricetag.
- Rushing wonders with great leaders has been disabled in C3C. Only scientific leaders can rush wonders. Great leaders can rush other stuff though. Or was it a sci leader you had?
- Nice to see the Warrior Monks in action. It would be interesting to know if their stats feel right.
@Everyone
Thank you again for your activity. I have found it hard to keep up at times and that's definitely a good sign.
I will probably release a tweak patch next week, but it's still uncertain.
Drift
It's a boy!
@Klyden
So, the monks are strong? Do you recommend something for them?
Men have new stats in the Beta 10 prerelease 1:
Tribesman (2.2.1 - 20)
Warrior (4.3.1 - 40)
Raider (5.4.1 - 60)
Executioner (6.5.1 - 80)
Longblade (7.5.1 - 100)
All of them are amphibious, but non-draftable.
So, the monks are strong? Do you recommend something for them?
Men have new stats in the Beta 10 prerelease 1:
Tribesman (2.2.1 - 20)
Warrior (4.3.1 - 40)
Raider (5.4.1 - 60)
Executioner (6.5.1 - 80)
Longblade (7.5.1 - 100)
All of them are amphibious, but non-draftable.
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
I guess the Men are gonna be popular on archi maps ...
Drift
It's a boy!
Did I overdo them? I was a little worried about making them too good, but then I figured that in order for there to be a point in owning a race resource, the resource has to be useful. We can tweak them very easily, so if they feel too powerful, just give me a heads up.
Drift
It's a boy!
@mrtn
I considered them at some point, but I was a little obsessed with all resources giving as many units. That's of course a bit ridiculous and I really should reconsider it. I might even make race specific bombarders.
I won't add them just for the fun of it though. Maybe spice up some races that don't offer as much as others.
I considered them at some point, but I was a little obsessed with all resources giving as many units. That's of course a bit ridiculous and I really should reconsider it. I might even make race specific bombarders.
I won't add them just for the fun of it though. Maybe spice up some races that don't offer as much as others.
Couple quick notes:
I don't think the redeployment scheme will replace ships. Typically, you are still going to need ships for making landings (out of range for the paradrop) and also need ships to contest the enemy in most cases. Look at my force mix and you will see that I have increased the number of ships I have and I continue to build them on occasion as well. I still use them a bit as transports, but for the most part, they are there to try to hit isolated pockets of enemy shipping. (Although, as I have documented, this has been less than successful as I have had rough going against the wind riders, despite having 6 attack against 4 defense). This is a rather unique unit that most people don't see in many mods and it is interesting.
Leaving wizards as a 2 mover, imho, is a mistake. It means that they can freely attack cav units and those units can't get away from a "foot" unit. Also, it means that when attacking the wizards, cav will be unable to escape if they are on a losing end of a fight. This is part of what makes attacking them so expensive. I think the 6 point defense is fine as it is generally the biggest defensive unit and if anyone should favor defense slightly, it should be life. 3-6-1 would be my suggestion.
On the subject of men. I don't know what to tell you other than to suggest they probably don't fit my play style. That does not mean they are broken, but I find them weak and a waste, even at their cheaper prices. I typically look to build things that will have a high percentage chance of success and wear my opponent out with attrition in that they take a lot of losses and I take very few. It is something I am comfortable with. Men seem to go the other way and the strategy with them seems to be more of economics in that I can send a wave of men over and while some die, I make headway because they are killing things more expensive than they are. It is a quality vs quantity issue and there is no real right or wrong in the use of them. Indeed, history is generally full of battles between quality and quantity and there will always be an arguement for what is more important.
For the monks. Do they stop at some point? I see where they get them every 10 turns, so based on that, Ariel has had the advancement for close to 50 turns. I also see they are maint free. If they don't stop after a certain point, I can see it being very brutal to get anyplace against a civ with units like that. As I mentioned, they basically doubled Ariel's defenders and made the cities tougher to take, but then again, it made Ariel more agressive too, which is not necessarily a bad thing. I don't know if a tweak to 1-3 with an extra hp might not be bad. As 1-4's, I seem to have more problems with them than the sorcerers.
I will try to get you a couple saved games.
I don't think the redeployment scheme will replace ships. Typically, you are still going to need ships for making landings (out of range for the paradrop) and also need ships to contest the enemy in most cases. Look at my force mix and you will see that I have increased the number of ships I have and I continue to build them on occasion as well. I still use them a bit as transports, but for the most part, they are there to try to hit isolated pockets of enemy shipping. (Although, as I have documented, this has been less than successful as I have had rough going against the wind riders, despite having 6 attack against 4 defense). This is a rather unique unit that most people don't see in many mods and it is interesting.
Leaving wizards as a 2 mover, imho, is a mistake. It means that they can freely attack cav units and those units can't get away from a "foot" unit. Also, it means that when attacking the wizards, cav will be unable to escape if they are on a losing end of a fight. This is part of what makes attacking them so expensive. I think the 6 point defense is fine as it is generally the biggest defensive unit and if anyone should favor defense slightly, it should be life. 3-6-1 would be my suggestion.
On the subject of men. I don't know what to tell you other than to suggest they probably don't fit my play style. That does not mean they are broken, but I find them weak and a waste, even at their cheaper prices. I typically look to build things that will have a high percentage chance of success and wear my opponent out with attrition in that they take a lot of losses and I take very few. It is something I am comfortable with. Men seem to go the other way and the strategy with them seems to be more of economics in that I can send a wave of men over and while some die, I make headway because they are killing things more expensive than they are. It is a quality vs quantity issue and there is no real right or wrong in the use of them. Indeed, history is generally full of battles between quality and quantity and there will always be an arguement for what is more important.
For the monks. Do they stop at some point? I see where they get them every 10 turns, so based on that, Ariel has had the advancement for close to 50 turns. I also see they are maint free. If they don't stop after a certain point, I can see it being very brutal to get anyplace against a civ with units like that. As I mentioned, they basically doubled Ariel's defenders and made the cities tougher to take, but then again, it made Ariel more agressive too, which is not necessarily a bad thing. I don't know if a tweak to 1-3 with an extra hp might not be bad. As 1-4's, I seem to have more problems with them than the sorcerers.
I will try to get you a couple saved games.
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
I meant they won't be very popular on non-Archipelago maps, since equivalent tech level units from other races sport significantly better attack values. I think they're tolerably well-balanced with the stats you suggest, but their usefulness will be highly dependent on geography.Drift said:Did I overdo them? I was a little worried about making them too good, but then I figured that in order for there to be a point in owning a race resource, the resource has to be useful. We can tweak them very easily, so if they feel too powerful, just give me a heads up.
Freya report continued.
This is where the game is at now. I have just captured Pyre and Hialanth and my forces are poised to capture Midnight. I have already captured a city to the north as mentioned earlier.
This is my second time to visit Midnight. I sent a stack in earlier and proceeded to get blasted by 19 spells that basically trashed the assault forces. They were able to make a fighting withdrawl without loss and regroup and come back.
In the small map, the huge red area is Lo Pan. He has fire ships, so is at least to Chaos 9 while I am still working on the level 6 techs. Lo Pan also has over 70k in VP, so this game is about over.
This is where the game is at now. I have just captured Pyre and Hialanth and my forces are poised to capture Midnight. I have already captured a city to the north as mentioned earlier.
This is my second time to visit Midnight. I sent a stack in earlier and proceeded to get blasted by 19 spells that basically trashed the assault forces. They were able to make a fighting withdrawl without loss and regroup and come back.
In the small map, the huge red area is Lo Pan. He has fire ships, so is at least to Chaos 9 while I am still working on the level 6 techs. Lo Pan also has over 70k in VP, so this game is about over.
Attachments
Drift
It's a boy!
@Klyden
I'll give the birds some thought. I still feel they may step too much on the turf of ships as units can be shuffled between continents as long as there's a friendly city on both. Also, armies can be relocated very quickly with them. They were meant as paradrop units so the reloc strategy is an added bonus at the moment. Like I said, I'll have to think about it.
I was going to make the Wizards one-movers, but then I though of their use offensively. They can't support offensive units as well when they are one-movers, but you do raise valid points. Maybe I'll go with your suggestion after all.
I'm happy with men as they are in the latest patch. Amphibious fills a niche and they are pretty good footmen with their updated stats. Nothing special though. If I make race specific ships, a longboat for them is practically given.
Monks are a bit problematic. They don't stop so a life mage left alone will get a lot of them. Maybe push the monastery a bit back in the tech tree and lower their stats. I didn't mean for them to very good defenders, more like an added problem for the opponents of life mages so reducing the defence to 3 is a good option. I could also increase the support cost of the monastery from 1 to 2 and/or increase the spawning time. I'll do something about 'em.
I'm going to check out the savegames later tonight. Waiting with interest.
I'll give the birds some thought. I still feel they may step too much on the turf of ships as units can be shuffled between continents as long as there's a friendly city on both. Also, armies can be relocated very quickly with them. They were meant as paradrop units so the reloc strategy is an added bonus at the moment. Like I said, I'll have to think about it.
I was going to make the Wizards one-movers, but then I though of their use offensively. They can't support offensive units as well when they are one-movers, but you do raise valid points. Maybe I'll go with your suggestion after all.
I'm happy with men as they are in the latest patch. Amphibious fills a niche and they are pretty good footmen with their updated stats. Nothing special though. If I make race specific ships, a longboat for them is practically given.
Monks are a bit problematic. They don't stop so a life mage left alone will get a lot of them. Maybe push the monastery a bit back in the tech tree and lower their stats. I didn't mean for them to very good defenders, more like an added problem for the opponents of life mages so reducing the defence to 3 is a good option. I could also increase the support cost of the monastery from 1 to 2 and/or increase the spawning time. I'll do something about 'em.
I'm going to check out the savegames later tonight. Waiting with interest.
Freya (Final report)
Well, the game past the above point was short. I took Midnight after another hard fight (10 defenders and 5 of them monks).
Lo Pan and Oberic made peace.
The AI deemed fit to have Hialanth flip on me back to Ariel. This not only compromised much of my lines, but destroyed 22 military units that were in Hialanth, including a giant army and 8 giants. Words can't really describe what BS this is and my feelings of frustration and hard work put into a hard fought campaign only to have it end like this.
I will be downloading the latest version and see about starting another game.
Well, the game past the above point was short. I took Midnight after another hard fight (10 defenders and 5 of them monks).
Lo Pan and Oberic made peace.
The AI deemed fit to have Hialanth flip on me back to Ariel. This not only compromised much of my lines, but destroyed 22 military units that were in Hialanth, including a giant army and 8 giants. Words can't really describe what BS this is and my feelings of frustration and hard work put into a hard fought campaign only to have it end like this.
I will be downloading the latest version and see about starting another game.
Drift
It's a boy!
Oh the madness of the flips... 
I personally consider it a perfectly viable strategy to load an autosave and withdraw the army before the flip. I wonder if I could do something about them (I don't know what my options are, but I'm betting they are extra slim).
I personally consider it a perfectly viable strategy to load an autosave and withdraw the army before the flip. I wonder if I could do something about them (I don't know what my options are, but I'm betting they are extra slim).
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
You could ban flips, altho I for one would hate it.
I think race-specifc naval units would be nice. aaglo has some nice Orc ships ...
Edit: The impact of flips could be reduced by increasing assimilation rates. With the current rates of 4% for Life and 2% for the rest, foreign nationals, and thereby flip risks, remain very long.
I think race-specifc naval units would be nice. aaglo has some nice Orc ships ...
Edit: The impact of flips could be reduced by increasing assimilation rates. With the current rates of 4% for Life and 2% for the rest, foreign nationals, and thereby flip risks, remain very long.
Drift
It's a boy!
@TLC
Good idea with the assimilation rates. I'll probably try it.
Orcs could use a ship, but I'm not sure about the ones aaglo has made for WH-mod. They are amazing ships, but they don't feel quite right in MoM. We'll see, I may still turn around. Currently I'm thinking of adding Longship for Men and the Turtle Transport for Lizardmen.
Good idea with the assimilation rates. I'll probably try it.
Orcs could use a ship, but I'm not sure about the ones aaglo has made for WH-mod. They are amazing ships, but they don't feel quite right in MoM. We'll see, I may still turn around. Currently I'm thinking of adding Longship for Men and the Turtle Transport for Lizardmen.
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
Didn't someone make a Tolkienesque Swanship that could go well for the Elves?
Drift
It's a boy!
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
That wasn't what I was thinking of, and doesn't look very Elvish, does it?
Typically in a case like that flip, it is go into auto save and do something about it. I usually get pretty infuriated when something like that happens, because I look at it as AI BS. Its losing, so it will do whatever to try to balance things out. I did not bother with this game as Lo Pan was going to win in a couple of turns anyway.
I downloaded the lastest and started a couple of new games as a life mage. First game, awesome starting position and had a nature mage and a life mage right next to me. Had tobbaco as a close resource and also spice. Just as I was about to drop a settler on the spice, the life mage beat me to it. I also lost a couple protectors to the mad barbarian kitties. I tried to trade some tech only to find out that the nature mage had all the level 1's already about 30 turns into the game and I had nothing to offer. The life mage had level 2 already (I was not even close), so I could see how this was going to go. I did have a life resource next to me.
Game start number 2. Terrible starting position with just about zip for resources close and no water. Moved up and found another mage close to me and able to close me off. Not worth my time this game.
I downloaded the lastest and started a couple of new games as a life mage. First game, awesome starting position and had a nature mage and a life mage right next to me. Had tobbaco as a close resource and also spice. Just as I was about to drop a settler on the spice, the life mage beat me to it. I also lost a couple protectors to the mad barbarian kitties. I tried to trade some tech only to find out that the nature mage had all the level 1's already about 30 turns into the game and I had nothing to offer. The life mage had level 2 already (I was not even close), so I could see how this was going to go. I did have a life resource next to me.
Game start number 2. Terrible starting position with just about zip for resources close and no water. Moved up and found another mage close to me and able to close me off. Not worth my time this game.
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