Matrix1 - Ziggurat Addiction

[MatrixTheKitty]

Hello everyone! This is my first ever hosted SG. I was going to wait until IO4 and SGOTM11 were done before starting this, but, with IO's computer being dead again and Brian being away until the 18th, I don't feel like waiting with Civ V around the corner.

So, on to business..

Settings:

Leader:

The idea here is that playing Sumeria with an ORG leader nets us early 45-hammer courthouses. A quarter of the price of normal ones! Because these things are so cheap and early, we're going to build them everywhere! Yes, even the capital

I'm not going to put any strict restrictions on what victory we can achieve, though I would reccomend against Domination, as we could end up in a situation where we go over the Domination limit while some cities don't have/are still building Ziggurats. Also, being CHM does nudge us towards war a bit with its XP bonus, though I chose CHM because I think it is quite versatile. Even if you don't war much, the happiness bonus is always welcome no matter what you're doing. I would also reccomend against Culture because both IO4 and SGOTM 11 were Culture games

I'd like to do something different. Probably involving war. Mainly because I'd like to learn better how to do it. I'm not very good at it - this is why the variant is so light, and why the difficulty is Monarch.

- Must build a Ziggurat in every city before winning. Even the capital.
- Must beeline Priesthood immediately after the basic techs.
- In new cities we must build a Ziggurat immediately, once we are able to.
- All cities reaching size 6 must assign its Ziggurat a master spy (spy spec). This does not prevent us from using spy specs in cities before that size.
- Must switch from research to espionage after Priesthood and Alphabet and switch to stealing techs.
- Settle all Great Spies in the capital, except for one for Scotland Yard.
- Conquest Victory.


So, here is the start:

Spoiler :

And the save:
The Save

So, who wants to come get addicted to ziggurats?

Discussion:

So, the only food resource we apparently have is a plains cow though we do have a bunch of FPs, so maybe that makes up for it. But there are also three elephants... If we SIP we only get one, if we move NE we get two elephants. However we would not get all three floodplains right away, we'd be settling on one, too, and we'd be one away from the coast. At least I think we would. That sure does look like a coast to the north of our warrior.

The blue circle, I don't know, maybe we could move the warrior N and see if that is indeed a coast and if there's any seafood near those elephants.

If we move E onto the plains hill, we get to be on a hill, get all the FPs and two elephants, but we would no longer be on a river, and we would have one less river tile in the BFC.

We've also got that gold over there, probably good for a second city, though we'll have to check out what else is there.

Roster:

Matrix
happyturtle
Mikehendi
Beorn
kolokol
IO
Kutzov

 

[Mikehendi]

Courthouse = 180h --> organized 90h
Ziggurat = 135h --> organized 68h
At least I think it works like this.

I'm thinking about signing up (though this isn't a signup yet), though I'd like some more variant rules. Building 1/3 price courthouses in each city isn't something you'd normally not do

May I suggest some optional variant rules?
- Must beeline priesthood after immediate worker techs
- In new cities, must build ziggurats as 1st build.
- All cities reaching size 4? 5? 6? must assign a ziggurats master spy (spy spec)

Thoughts:
Many early ziggurats means much espionage early. Wanna do something with it?

I'd move the warrior NE to the coast to check for seafood. If there is, placing the cap on the grass tile 1E of the warrior would include 3 Ivory, Gold, Cow and Seafood! Awesome!

 

[MatrixTheKitty]

Huh. So I was wrong about the hammer price... Why the hell did I ever think that 90 was half of 120? Damn I suck at math.

- Must beeline priesthood after immediate worker techs
- In new cities, must build ziggurats as 1st build.
- All cities reaching size 4? 5? 6? must assign a ziggurats master spy (spy spec)

These sound good. I've never done anything with espionage before, though I guess that's something else to learn in this game.

 

[Mikehendi]

Oh, only now I see they must be 45 hammers at normal speed (120*0.75=90, 90*0.5=45), i went with epic because the game is epic speed.

Well, being obligated to run spy spec ther will probably get a lot of great spies. How about making the capital the empire's Super Spy Center, settling all great spies here (except for 1 scotland yard, +100% EP)

I've never relied totally on espionage also, maybe it would be fun to try such a game? No research slider after Priesthood+Alphabet(+masonry for Great wall maybe).

Conquest would be hard then, since we'll never have a tech lead. especially since I suck at warring. It might sound a bit harsh/extreme, but well, I don't mind losing as long as it's fun.

 

[MatrixTheKitty]

Well, I never said that war was a must, it was just a suggestion. In fact I probably know less about espionage than I do about war, so I probably have more need of learning there. And since this variant focuses on Ziggurats, which generate esp points, I guess it does make sense to focus on it.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

Matrix I'd love to help you out here but as I'm already in 4 and trying to keep Betis on top of Europe an breaking the Dutch of their kicking ways in another game (plus being AUFN officially to the 18th) I canna take the strain (to misquote a great Scott).

Of course this post means I'll lurk within tent.

 

[Mikehendi]

Ok then, still not officially signing up yet (I like to wait untill the rules are clear), but here it goes:

I played a little test game (fresh map), ziggurat 1st in each city is quite harsh, it takes a very long time to get some culture in new cities (68h zig + 45h monument) = 2,5 times as long as usual.

I think we are almost obliged to choprush SH in the cap here ASAP. Mysticism is on the priesthood beeline anyway.

Either that, or allow monuments as first build, zig 2nd. (or start a new game with a CRE/ORG leader = Zara) (OR even see below!)


I don't really know what to do with the espionage aspect, except these two extremes:

- Play a no-espionage game. This converts all EP to culture (solving the border pop issue when building zigs first, because it gives zigs 2 culture!)
- Play a 0% research slider game after priesthood and alphabet, raising the EP slider and stealing all techs.

What do you think?

 

[MatrixTheKitty]

Well how about a combination of tech/trade/steal? Like, have half our slider on beakers, half on ep. Maybe we could even go for the pyramids and supplement our research with rep beakers. How viable would getting both Stonehenge and the Pyramids be? SH/Mids/GW even?

 

[happyturtle]

If you're doing an espionage game, you want Great Wall. Maybe roll maps until we get a stone start and do GW and SH?

I think I could probably handle a third SG. In.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

Not a sign up. yet. I too want the rules finalized first.

I don't see the fun in running a no espionage game with ziggs.

Don't mind me, I'm a idiot.

But, if

Must beeline Priesthood immediately after the worker techs

that means we get to research mining, BW, pottery, hunting, and masonry at least?

I see at least 10 chops in the BFC. Is that enough to chop out the GW and SH? I'd vote against re-rolling the start. Settle in place. I'd move the warrior SE.

 

[IdiotsOpposite]

Hey Matrix. I'm going to be watching this with great interest. Be the feline general you've always wanted to be! Trust me from IO3... war is fun.

And on espionage, remember that spies can send a city into revolt. They can be as good as a stack o' siege.

Have fun! I may do a late sign-up when I get my laptop.

 

[MatrixTheKitty]

Hmm. After some thought: We don't necessarily have to have a tech lead to win wars, as long as we're not too behind. If the games goes to WW2 tech we can just spam Infantry and Artillery and crush everything, they work well even against higher tech units. They only begin to lose effectiveness when the enemy starts getting Modern Armor, and even then they can be crushed if you throw enough stuff at them. I already reccomended against Culture and Dom, Time is lame, Space is unlikely if we're going to be stealing techs instead of researching them ourselves, as mentioned before, we'll not have a tech lead. Diplo is also unlikely since we'll end up pissing the other civs off if they catch us. Conquest actually seems like a solid victory condition here. As IO said, we can plop down spies in enemy cities for a few turns and them bam - no cultural defenses. Then we can throw a few cats or trebs or whatever at it and then smack it down. I'm going to make further edits to the OP regarding the rules.

 

[MatrixTheKitty]

Posting the new full ruleset, also now present in the OP:

- Must build a Ziggurat in every city before winning. Even the capital.
- Must beeline Priesthood immediately after the basic techs.
- In new cities we must build a Ziggurat immediately.
- All cities reaching size 6 must assign its Ziggurat a master spy (spy spec). This does not prevent us from using spy specs in cities before that size.
- Must switch from research to espionage after Priesthood and Alphabet and switch to stealing techs.
- Settle all Great Spies in the capital, except for one for Scotland Yard.
- Conquest Victory.

This enough for everyone?

 

[Mikehendi]

Ok, signing in!

1) Do we want to discuss up front what techs we are allowed to self-research (or do we decide in-game)?

I'd vote for the basic worker techs:
- Upper half: Fishing, agriculture, wheel, pottery, hunting, Animal Husbandry
- Lower half: Mysticsm, mining, masonry, bronze working
- Ziggurat beeline: Med OR Poly, priesthood.
- Spies beeline: Writing, Alphabet.


2) More thoughts on rules:

2a) - I'd rather not build stonehenge, but allow monument-ziggurat in new cities. If we only build the Great Wall, we keep the gene pool pure, making sure the first two GP's are Great Spies (settle-scotland yard). It would really suck if we would get 2 prophets in the first 3 GP's for our variant.

2b) - Maybe it's better to replace the "beeline-priesthood" rule for "Cannot settle 2nd city until priesthood (for zigs)". This will make sure we'll beeline it early, without getting discussions on what the "immediate worker techs" are.

2c) - Add a Must (try to) build the Great Wall rule? (this works well with the above rule, teching towards Priesthood while building the Gwall)


3) On settling:

I'd move the warrior NE, if it reveals seafood I'd probably settle on 1 of the riverside Ivory tiles, or the grass tile next to the warrior, to get some better food tiles in the cap.

Based on current information, I'd settle 1N:
- keeps all the recources, FP's
- Gains an ivory tile
- Gains more river tiles
- Loses a crappy 2f2c lake
- Doesn't lose a strategic recourse (4 forests and a lake)
- Loses 4 forest tiles in the south (bad), but gains at least 2 forests back in the north
- We might luck out with an extra (food) recourse in the northern fog


4) On opening strategy:

Tech: Hunting-AH with worker first, AH is in just in time for the worker to immediately improve cow.

I think we can skip mining-bw (we have cow and 2x ivory and very slow growth), So Pottery next, to keep the worker busy (early cottages on FP's, mjum!). with cow + 3x FP cottage we can reach +6 food, which isn't great, but decent enough. I don't think we'll be whipping much here anyway)

then (masonry + priesthood) to start on the great wall.

 

[MatrixTheKitty]

2b) - Maybe it's better to replace the "beeline-priesthood" rule for "Cannot settle 2nd city until priesthood (for zigs)". This will make sure we'll beeline it early, without getting discussions on what the "immediate worker techs" are.

Okay, so I changed "worker techs" in the rules to "basic techs" because I wasn't entirely thinking what that meant when I wrote the rules. I'm going to define "basic techs" as everything in the first two columns + BW. The rule about them doesn't means that we have to get all of those before getting Priesthood. It means that if we get them all and we still don't have Priesthood, we must get Priesthood.

2c) - Add a Must (try to) build the Great Wall rule? (this works well with the above rule, teching towards Priesthood while building the Gwall)

As for the Great Wall, I don't think it needs a rule. We'd be stupid not to try regardless of one, with this variant.

2a) - I'd rather not build stonehenge, but allow monument-ziggurat in new cities. If we only build the Great Wall, we keep the gene pool pure, making sure the first two GP's are Great Spies (settle-scotland yard). It would really suck if we would get 2 prophets in the first 3 GP's for our variant.

Stonehenge and the polluting of the pool is something we should discuss.

early cottages on FP's

But if we farm them we get quicker growth, the better to take advantage of Charismatic.

Also added a list of the team in the OP, it's not the complete roster yet.

Anyways, unless you guys find something to be ambiguous and confusing, I think discussion on the variant rules should be closed for now.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

You do realize how idiotic I am? In, if you want me. I'd like to go last.

 

[MatrixTheKitty]

Alright, added you in. You guys think we should wait for some more people before starting?

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

Based on current information, I'd settle 1N:
- keeps all the recources, FP's
- Gains an ivory tile
- Gains more river tiles
- Loses a crappy 2f2c lake
- Doesn't lose a strategic recourse (4 forests and a lake)
- Loses 4 forest tiles in the south (bad), but gains at least 2 forests back in the north
- We might luck out with an extra (food) recourse in the northern fog

makes sense. I'll settle for losing 2 forests for an ivory.

4) On opening strategy:

Tech: Hunting-AH with worker first, AH is in just in time for the worker to immediately improve cow.

I think we can skip mining-bw (we have cow and 2x ivory and very slow growth), So Pottery next, to keep the worker busy (early cottages on FP's, mjum!). with cow + 3x FP cottage we can reach +6 food, which isn't great, but decent enough. I don't think we'll be whipping much here anyway)

then (masonry + priesthood) to start on the great wall.

Could we do hunting > AH then mining > BW > masonry before pottery? Our worker is going to busy enough hooking up the ivory. A great wall of chopped wood is still a great wall. Somewhere in there, chop out a settler and found a second city to maybe run for oracle. It would work on prince, on monarch, I'm not sure. Keeps the gene pool clean. Earlier GW makes founding cities easier. Just a thought, I'm comfortable either way.

Start with 4 and then add one or 2?

 

[MatrixTheKitty]

Could we do hunting > AH then mining > BW > masonry before pottery? Our worker is going to busy enough hooking up the ivory. A great wall of chopped wood is still a great wall. Somewhere in there, chop out a settler and found a second city to maybe run for oracle. It would work on prince, on monarch, I'm not sure. Keeps the gene pool clean. Earlier GW makes founding cities easier. Just a thought, I'm comfortable either way.

Sounds good to me. Oracle might be nice since we want Priesthood anyways, though when does it typically go away on Epic Monarch? And what would we aim to grab with the Oracle? And what about Stonehenge in that second city for instant Monuments everywhere instead? We're Charismatic and not Creative. The culture for borderpops and +1 happy everywhere without having to build monuments everywhere individually is pretty good, I think. Libraries aren't that great in the long term given our variant. They'd speed the research of Alphabet and that's it. With SH monuments we wouldn't need to build them for borderpops either.

Although, perhaps we should know more about our world before deciding things like a second city. We haven't agreed on where to move the warrior, have we?

 

[Mikehendi]

On wonders:

SH in 2nd city requires a bit of luck it doesn't go early, and working towards that goal from turn 1. It is doable though, but didn't we have a "must build ziggurat first" rule?

We definitely want (to try for) great wall, mainly because with all those Zig building, we will have less units to defend our territory. (spy points from GW are great too, but we can run a spy spec@priesthood if we miss it)

Oracle is good too (though not really in the spirit of an espionage game), but I think the order of importance here is GW-Grab Land-SH-Oracle.

AI Wonder dates estimates:
SH 1600-2400 BC (On rare occasions, even earlier, like 2600BC!)
GW 1400-2100 BC (Don't really know, usually goes a few centuries after SH)
Oracle 800-1400 BC (See SH)

On rules:
Just for clarification: Are we allowed to settle more cities before priesthood? That conflicts with the "must immediately build zig in new cities" rule.



In favor of cottaging up the cap:
As the first Great Spy probably builds a Scotland Yard (assuming we're running the EP slider by then), every commerce gets a 100% EP bonus (twice the value of an academy).

For taking advantage of CHA, (Working Cow, 2x ivory and 4x FP cottage and a spy spec @ size 8) > (working 3-food cow, 4-food farms and whip) IMO.

Skipping min-bw allows for improving tiles in the Cap while building GW, instead of spending those worker turns chopping forests and working unimproved tiles. Especially improving the FP's takes a long time (8 turn cottages, 10(!) turns for a farm)

Though I may be underestimating the power of chopping and whipping, the difference between Min-bw-mas or pottery-myst-masonry-min-BW is that the 2nd one has a strong economy at the time of GW completion.