MAVERICKS Diplomacy Discussions

[Trystero]

We've made contact with Mavericks... well, I have at least. obsolete PM'ed me since I was the last to log in, I presume:

Current Turn

I bumped into your Galley on the way over to find you. You wouldn't be interested in getting Metal-Casting & Machinery in 2 turns would you?

Tell everyone on your team we said hi.

BTW, why haven't you dog-piled on Pacal yet?

I haven't replied yet. Would somebody like to volunteer to be the Mavericks diplomat I could refer them to for normal diplomatic contacts? I don't see anything from them in the team gmail account yet.

We really should talk to Amazon and Quatronia about what's going on.

 

[Trystero]

Here was my response (via PM):

Hi obsolete,

I'll pass along your message to the team, and we'll send a response shortly. Our usual route for diplomatic contacts is through the team email accounts (ours is sirius.mtdg@gmail.com), so we'll send our response to your team gmail address.

Regards,

Trystero

Also, here is their Work Boat:

Spoiler :

If we sink it now, they won't know about Arcturus' location. Of course we'll be at war, and they have triremes.

 

[azzaman333]

Arcturus' borders expand before they can get through, right?

 

[AlphaShard]

Arcturus borders pop in 3 turns so I think the WB will just make it through.

If I've learned anything from starting early wars is you BETTER be at the military advantage and we don't seem to be. If we sink this boat they will only send those Triemes and find Arcturus anyways and destroy it's clam fish boat. They may have Axemen as well and we haven't even hooked up our own metals yet. Were not ready for war.

 

[grant2004]

Arcturus does pop in 3 turns. My take on what will happen is that the borders will pop just before they're able to move out of our territory because culture growth happens during the turn roll. I think they'll be on our clams, or 1 north of them when our borders grow. What I don't know is where the game will throw them when that happens. It's possible that it will throw them east out of our borders and with a clear shot towards the Amazons. It's also possible that it would throw them north west back towards their homeland. Either move is 2 spaces, so I don't know which the computer will select. Is there a way to figure this out? Will the same thing happen every time, or in a case where the two moves are equi-distant does the computer select one with the RNG?

Also they offered machinery in 2 turns. I haven't checked if they've gotten IW yet, but if they do that means they'll be able to have crossbowmen very shortly. We can't possibly fight them if that's the case. They may be bluffing about machinery, but I'd prefer not to assume so. I forget is someone in ETTA getting machinery? If so when are we expecting it? We'll want to have crossbowmen ASAP if we need to counter Maverick crossbows. Otherwise it may push us towards settling a city for horses or elephants, as those could also be effective in protecting ourselves from crossbows.

 

[DaveShack]

I think it might send them only in the direction of already revealed tiles, but don't know for sure. That should be pretty easy to wb.

 

[Trystero]

I think it might send them only in the direction of already revealed tiles, but don't know for sure. That should be pretty easy to wb.

I tried this in my test save, and it sent the WB to the east. Someone should double check that result, because I had to use WB to move the work boat around, I'm not sure how well that would represent the situation in-game.

We could have the galley follow the WB a few turns before we sink it. That would buy us some time.

 

[grant2004]

I also tested this out, and found the same problem, it likes to kick east.

We should be getting metal casting this turn. Maybe a Trieme would be a good thing to insert into one of the city's build ques.

I double checked the real game, the Mavericks can research machinery, but they don't yet have iron working. They won't be able to produce crossbowmen until they finish IW and hook up their iron hill. None the less, we aren't in a good position to fight them right now. The best thing we can do is see what the situation with the Amazons is. If we can let the Maverick workboat through and have them sink it we'll buy a lot of time.

 

[Trystero]

This keeps getting more complicated. We just received this message:

To Mr. Willem:

We have spent ages cruising the seas to make contact with you by workboats, by galleys, and even by triremes. This is a momentus occasion and we are always happy to have a new friend.

Was there anything you would wish to do to further increase our relationship at this time? Did you wish to trade for metal casting and machinery? Or perhaps we could avoid double-teching in order to save beakers and co-ordinate our paths together.

In the meantime, there is another trireme up on its way near your galley. Do not be alarmed my friend, for we wish your galley no harm. If you are worried in any way, we could make a peace contract if that makes you feel safer.

The Mavericks

A trireme is right behind the work boat (or so they claim).

 

[Lord Parkin]

My impression of this message is that they're kind of grabbing at straws at this point. It's obvious from the scores that something is going on with a tech alliance that doesn't involve them. The phrasing of their message conveys a sense of hopelessness about the situation. They're aware that there's next to no hope of catching up if they don't snag another tech partner soon, and yet it's probably pretty apparent that we're already involved elsewhere.

Be warned, their most logical response to being left behind will be to throw everything they have at one civ or another just for the hell of it; chances are it could be us. I'm guessing once they've got Iron Working they'll be trying to make use of the short window they have with Crossbows.

I wouldn't worry about the Trireme though, it can't exactly do much damage. They'll probably want Open Borders so it can pass through, and realistically there isn't much to be gained by denying them that.

So, how to respond? I'd suggest negotiating some sort of non-aggression pact with them. It may not stop them from warring, but it's a vaguely amicable gesture anyway, and conveys that we might not be entirely hostile to their presence in the world. If we desire, we could also attempt to negotiate a trade with them for Machinery. However, unless they're completely stupid, I doubt they'll agree to a 1:1 beaker trade for this tech when they can see that there's some sort of alliance going on. At least 2:1 beakers will be a more likely request from them, and that may not be worth it for us.

Anyway, just some random thoughts from the sideline.

 

[BLubmuz]

I think we must offer friendship to Mavericks and trying to seal a sort of NAP for some 20-30 turns.

I also think that we can try to see what we have to offer for Machinery.

We must inform our ETTT partners of those negotiations, but i think we (intended as all the ETTT) have a lot to gain to acquire techs and to buy some turn of peace with one of our not-so-future targets.

We can negotiate with them and another member can backstab them. We'll say "poor Mavericks, those guys are bad" waiting for when we can wipe them.

 

[Trystero]

Another PM from obsolete:

Trystero, your diplo responses from your team are taking too long. We have other deals going on and can't really wait forever. If you're not interested in machinery, np we have other deals we're shopping around for.

Did you want to trade other junker techs as well? It's not really mutual beneficial if we research the garbage stuff we jumped over like Hunting, despite the known techs bonus, but if we give you a little bit of cash here and there then we both gain some.

Again, please hurry up because I don't think I can keep the rest of my team stalling for trades anymore.

Sounds like they are getting concerned. We know they are bluffing about shopping Machinery around.

 

[Trystero]

I sent this reply to help them cool their heels:

My dear obsolete and Team Mavericks,

Our sincerest apologies for the delay. This weekend has been quite problematic for assembling our entire high council. We are still discussing your trade offer.

However, in the meantime, we would be happy to offer your vessels safe passage through our waters. We will extend Open Borders to you immediately in-game.

It would aid us greatly if we knew which technologies in particular you would be seeking in exchange for Machinery. (We are about to finish research into Metal Casting ourselves, and thus would not be interested in trading for it).

Again my apologies for the delay. We will be back in touch shortly.

Best regards,

Trystero

Sorry, I'm not posting some of these beforehand for approval, but I think we've discussed the major point here. Also, I'm getting a bit overwhelmed with all this diplomacy, so I am trying to resolve issues as they arise.

Edit: FYI: When I logged in to offer OB to Mavericks, we received Calendar from Quatronia.

 

[Lord Parkin]

What the hell? Not even 2 days since their initial PM (1 day since their official message), and they're already complaining that we're "taking too long". Well, at least it confirms they're desperate, I guess. But I wouldn't have been quite so polite in a response to that message; they have no right to tell us how long we should take to decide on an important tech deal, especially if it's been less than 2 days since our initial meeting. I would have said something along the lines of: "Complaining that we are taking too long to respond to a major trading proposal when it has been barely a day since we met is simply unhelpful and rude. It takes time for us to discuss these things, so please be patient. We are not ignoring you, we are discussing your proposition." Then again, maybe it's better to be overwhelmingly polite even in the face of rudeness from opponents, so perhaps it's better I didn't send that.

I can try to step back into some of the diplomatic side of things if you're getting overwhelmed, Trystero. I'm pretty busy myself, but I should be able to spare a bit of time to take care of diplomacy with at least a couple of teams. Let me know anyway.

 

[Trystero]

Another response, again via PM from obsolete:

Thanks for the reply. I posted your message on the forum, so hopefully DMOC & Snaaty can think up a price that's beneficial for the both of us. We have an engineer on stand-by for machinery, though some members still want us to grab Mids.

As for our next tech, we are not sure yet since we are still meeting civs. Because of this we're just stockpiling up gold for now. Because of this, it may be best also for us to trade gold for the smaller techs as well

.

 

[Trystero]

What the hell? Not even 2 days since their initial PM (1 day since their official message), and they're already complaining that we're "taking too long". Well, at least it confirms they're desperate, I guess. But I wouldn't have been quite so polite in a response to that message; they have no right to tell us how long we should take to decide on an important tech deal, especially if it's been less than 2 days since our initial meeting. I would have said something along the lines of: "Complaining that we are taking too long to respond to a major trading proposal when it has been barely a day since we met is simply unhelpful and rude. It takes time for us to discuss these things, so please be patient. We are not ignoring you, we are discussing your proposition." Then again, maybe it's better to be overwhelmingly polite even in the face of rudeness from opponents, so perhaps it's better I didn't send that.

Yeah, Given what you said earlier about their possible desparation, I decided to try an overly polite approach.

I can try to step back into some of the diplomatic side of things if you're getting overwhelmed, Trystero. I'm pretty busy myself, but I should be able to spare a bit of time to take care of diplomacy with at least a couple of teams. Let me know anyway.

Thanks! As soon as we resolve the current issue I would gladly pass off Mavericks diplomacy to you. It shouldn't be too time consuming (I hope).

 

[Irgy]

We can negotiate with them and another member can backstab them. We'll say "poor Mavericks, those guys are bad" waiting for when we can wipe them.

And you call me a viper


My views on the subject FWIW are:
* Machinery is not worth trading for. CDZ are researching it already, and whatever we give Mavericks for it will be something we don't want them to have.
* We want peace for as long as possible, I honestly see no profit in war before Astronomy. Hopefully by the time of Astronomy we have a military tech lead rather than the deficit we have at the moment.
* We really need a volunteer with a silver tounge (so not me) to handle the diplomacy situation.

 

[Irgy]

Now here's a crosspost for you:

I can try to step back into some of the diplomatic side of things if you're getting overwhelmed, Trystero. I'm pretty busy myself, but I should be able to spare a bit of time to take care of diplomacy with at least a couple of teams. Let me know anyway.

We really need a volunteer with a silver tounge (so not me) to handle the diplomacy situation.

You'd fit the bill well LP.

I do agree with Trystero's (overly-) polite approach in his reply though.

 

[grant2004]

Ok wait, I'm clearly confused. The Mavericks have an engineer ready to bulb machinery? Clearly I missread the Amazon message, I thought that's the situation Merlot was in, and the Mavericks were researching machinery themselves.

If the Mavericks are getting ready to bulb machinery, that's something I'd prefer they not do. It's better IMO that they have the pyramids, and we steal them in the not too distant future, than it is that they develop an important defensive tech and trade it to us.

I think I've completely misunderstood the situation.

 

[azzaman333]

As I said in the Turn Discussion thread,

Mavericks will not agree to a trade for Machinery without stipulating that it cannot be shared. As such, it's futile attempting to trade with them.