Maya Strategy

[crdvis16]

There are zero situations where building a council before a monument is a good idea.

Except when you've made it your goal to hit mathematics and enhance as quickly as possible. In that case monuments in your secondary cities do nothing whereas a council in your 2nd and 3rd city might shave a few turns off your research time.

I'm not necessarily saying it's the strongest way to play the Maya (though that would be a fun debate!) but I've made it my goal to try to exploit their UA as much as possible and with that in mind those councils are helpful.

I totally agree that monuments are more important than councils in pretty much any other situation I can think of. Except maybe if you go ancestor worship possibly?

 

[crdvis16]

Its likely that going kunas can get you mathematics in some cases if the stars a line, but bee-lining is a more reliable method.

From my testing, the only way I could see going for Kunas first could result in a faster run to mathematics would be if you get a tech ruin that gives you mining for free, as then it's only a single tech diversion to get construction for Kunas. I did my testing without ruins in order to avoid the randomness factor, though. I went into the test fully expecting the Kuna first route to be faster but was surprised and kind of disappointed to be wrong.

I do think that the Kuna first method probably sets you up with stronger science/faith after the mad dash for mathematics, but whether or not that's worth missing a free great person is hard to determine. That first great person can be an engineer to grab an early wonder like hanging garden.

There is an interesting way that Kuna first could be really nice, though. In my test games I always founded my religion after the turn 86 long count great person. Going Kuna first for the extra faith could potentially allow the Maya to found just prior to turn 86 (and maybe still unlock mathematics prior to turn 72 for that long count GP) in which case you could use the t86 GP on a prophet to enhance. Enhancing on turn 86 rather than turn 101 could easily be worth missing out on the turn 62 long count. I might actually abandon my current game to see if I can pull that off instead.

 

[CrazyG]

Except when you've made it your goal to hit mathematics and enhance as quickly as possible. In that case monuments in your secondary cities do nothing whereas a council in your 2nd and 3rd city might shave a few turns off your research time.

I'm not necessarily saying it's the strongest way to play the Maya (though that would be a fun debate!) but I've made it my goal to try to exploit their UA as much as possible and with that in mind those councils are helpful.

I totally agree that monuments are more important than councils in pretty much any other situation I can think of. Except maybe if you go ancestor worship possibly?

You still build the monument in my opinion, unless you have counted the math and you need a few extra points of science to reach mathematics. I think you just set your goal to either hit by the first count or the second count, and hitting by the second count is pretty easy in my experience.

 

[crdvis16]

Alright, I started a new game last night and successfully founded a religion prior to turn 86 (I think like turn 83 or so?) which allowed me to enhance with a free great prophet on t86. I went Tradition and detoured to Kunas in order to found that quickly but unfortunately couldn't get to mathematics before turn 72- I think I hit it on turn 75 or so, close but no cigar and that was even with a Barringer Crater in my 2nd city. In order to hit mathematics prior to t72 I probably needed a free tech ruin.

Tech order was wheel, pottery, mining, AH, construction, calender, military theory, mathematics. Capital went shrine, monument, council, warrior, worker then settlers/workers for 3 more cities. Secondary cities went either shrine or council first depending on which was needed more to hit my targets. Considering I didn't hit t72 mathematics the councils should have been skipped but I couldn't know on turns 30-45 that I would miss t72 by just a few turns .

Missing out on the t72 free great person means no free engineer to nab Hanging Gardens. However, founding on t83, enhancing on t86, and then reforming on t120 or so has really given me a leg up in the religion game. I went Asceticism (food/follower) and Mandirs, Ceremonial Burial (faith/culture when expending GPs), Iconography (great person points, no policy wonder requirement, great person rate during golden ages), and glory of god (buy any great person with faith, yields when great people are born).

I've already spawned a bunch of great people. I think 3 engineers (grabbed Hagia Sophia and Sankore), an artist, writer, 4 great prophets total, 2 scientists, and 2 merchants. Each one has bonuses with ceremonial burial and glory of god.

I think the biggest danger in this strategy is right before you've got mathematics and haven't built much of a military. After mathematics you can knock out a bunch of Atlatists and easily hold off invasion but prior to that you probably just have a few warriors and maybe a couple horsemen if you have horses in your territory. I didn't get DoW'd but felt comfortable even if I had been by my neighbor Egypt with pretty good defensive city placement. I think Egypt wanted to DoW but waited too long and once I pumped out Atlatists he turned his sights on Austria and attacked her instead.

I'll update later with how this game goes.

 

[CrazyG]

What is your pantheon? Does it give science?

3 cities before turn 70 is a lot. Even if you go council first those cities aren't making much science.

 

[chicorbeef]

What is your pantheon? Does it give science?

3 cities before turn 70 is a lot. Even if you go council first those cities aren't making much science.

If you don't expand by turn 70 then you're probably in a bad position on the map, no? Not to mention it's hard to get a religion pre-T86 with no expands.

 

[crdvis16]

The religion was my main reason for feeling I needed to expand- founding before t86 is unusual for me. I went for renewal as my pantheon as my starting location was very, very jungle.

I believe I usually had the gold to invest in the first building for my secondary cities. My guess is that my first expansion city was made somewhere around turn 35 so assuming it took 10ish turns to build the council that means it generates about 40 science prior to turn 86 (not counting any instant science from citizen births). 40 science is the equivalent of hitting mathematics maybe 2 turns faster? Hard to predict if those two turns will be critical or a waste, though. In my case it was a waste as I didn't hit math in time for the t72 long count.

I think if I had waited longer to settle cities I may have been denied good locations by nearby neighbors or possibly would have missed founding my religion by t86.

 

[crdvis16]

Was able to finish up my game last night but it ended in a loss. On the positive side, my great person generation was just ridiculous and the bonuses I got from generating/expending them were pretty sizeable. Once Industrial hit I was able to buy great people with faith pretty much every 5 turns until the game was nearly over and faith costs were up around 10K+ for additional great people. My capital was also creating great people the old fashioned way and had a bunch of modifiers speeding that process up (Iconography, a few wonders, etc). And last, a few long count great people sprinkled in here and there.

I made two main mistakes this game that led to my loss:

First, I didn't have a narrow enough focus on my win condition. There wasn't much in my strategy that was greatly helping me achieve a science victory other than working Kunas and generating a few more great scientists than normal. I definitely should have prioritized some of the science buildings/techs a little bit more and maybe catered a piece of my religion toward science victory. In the end, Portugal was on another continent and she got fat from eating Assyria and ended up running away in science to where I probably wouldn’t have caught up. I didn't stick around long enough to find out because…

I got nuked into the stone-age and invaded by two strong civs simultaneously. My mistake here was not taking war/aggression seriously enough. I had two neighbors and I screwed up with both of them. One was Austria who was my friend for most of the game but who I ended up backstabbing because it started to look like she was going to run away with the world congress. I had the 2nd most votes and probably could have kept her in check while also staying friendly but I got cocky. My other neighbor was Egypt who DoW'd me around 5 or 6 times throughout the game. I had very good defensive city locations on his borders and was able to repel those attacks very comfortably so I didn't ever take him very seriously. I also didn't punish him by taking his nearby city because I was set on being a relatively peaceful/defensive civ this game. Well, these two civs ended up DoWing me together toward the end and dropping nukes on my border cities and capital. Had I stayed BFF with Austria and took an Egyptian city or two as a buffer I probably could have avoided that. It's been a while since I got my ass handed to me in war in the late game so it was a pretty fun game regardless.

 

[CrazyG]

I find taking both aestheticism and mandirs a mistake. I find one or the other will give enough growth to get what you need, I would rather have some science or culture from the second belief to more directly support a win condition.

If you don't expand by turn 70 then you're probably in a bad position on the map, no? Not to mention it's hard to get a religion pre-T86 with no expands.

Sorry I suppose I was unclear.

That city settled on turn 35 was a good move. Its going to be science positive by turn 70. The second settler probably is too.

The third city, is what I'm skeptical of. If you want to rush towards mathematics you need to slow down the settlers, I've learned this from trying to build hanging gardens many times. I would just take a city with atalists is the AI settled my land.

 

[crdvis16]

I'm playing the Maya again and the re-shuffling of the early tech tree has drastically improved their early game.

The Kuna unlock (construction) is now on the way to Mathematics so you no longer need to decide if you want to divert to Kuna or go straight for Mathematics. You can do both!

I've played numerous early game runs as progress to try to figure out the best opening. For reference, the early game free great people after unlocking mathematics arrive on turns 62, 72, 86, and 101. My goal was to try to unlock Mathematics by turn 60 (for the first free great person on turn 62, no idea why unlocking Mathematics on turn 61 won't give you the t62 great person...) and to try to found prior to turn 86 so that I can enhance with a free great prophet on turn 86. Here are some rough conclusions:

1) A start location where you can get 4-5 early Kuna is ideal and maybe necessary for the goals above. They give 1 science and 2 faith which are both precious early yields. You can typically save up 150 gold to rush buy a free worker by the time you unlock construction for the Kuna. I also typically take the free worker policy from progress first and have both workers knocking out Kunas and locking them to be worked ASAP.

2) A start location with some strong early tiles to work is also ideal (duh). Lakes, jungle/forest plantation tiles (like citrus), etc. If your initial tiles are all 2f 1p jungle your start might be a bit slow.

3) It seemed like opening with monument, researching Wheel, and then building Stonehenge ASAP was the best opening. Stonehenge gets you a pantheon at the same speed as building shrine first and also gives you a council for more science for your sprint to Mathematics. After Stonehenge completes I grabbed a shrine next followed by warriors/archers for defense. I chose Wisdom for my pantheon typically (it works well with Kuna science and an early Academy from a free scientist, usually on turn 72).

4) After Construction/Kuna you can either go straight for Mathematics OR divert to Pottery. Beelining Mathematics is probably a few turns faster so if you're right on the edge of unlocking it prior to turn 60 it might be the better/safer path. Getting pottery and building a granary is often worth 2 citizen births which gives you science via Progress's opener so it somewhat makes up for researching it. Getting Pottery first is ideal to be able to start making settlers for secondary cities. Your 2nd city can definitely help you found faster (pantheon, early shrine, and improving a Kuna or two ASAP). Your 3rd city will likely only speed up founding by a turn or 2 at most but still could make the difference between founding on turn 85 or 87. It's REALLY nice to found before t86 and enhance on t86. Otherwise you have to wait until t101 to enhance.

5) My ideal great person choices were:

t62 - Great Engineer (if a wonder is available) otherwise scientist for academy. Artemis, Halicarnassus, Hanging Garden, Roman Forum might all be available.
t72 - engineer or scientist, whichever I didn't pick on t62. If no wonder was available I would plant the engineer. Plant the scientist, of course.
t86 - prophet if I managed to found already giving me a super early enhancement, otherwise merchant most likely
t101 - prophet if I didn't already enhance on t86, otherwise a merchant most likely
t120ish? - diplomat most likely to get an early embassy secured

I was playing on standard/standard/deity/continents++ without ruins. I imagine playing with ruins could DRASTICALLY speed things up if you happen to get a lucky free tech that gives you Kuna or Mathematics even sooner. You may even be able to figure out if there is a free great person available before turn 62...

 

[Heinz_Guderian]

I got a pretty good start as Maya at epc/large. Unfortunately it is on King since I've been away from the game for a bit and heard it has gotten harder, feels wasted kinda. I got Mathematics on turn 59 at epic speed which is quite nice

 

[andersw]

Holy crab, thats some disgusting yields at epic T60