Midgame social polices for SV

[CrazyG]

I was looking at which policy to pick at the start of the medieval era. I'm thinking I'll win by science, curious which policy tree you guys favor.

Also, any thoughts on mixing? The fealty opener seems appealing but I think I can skip the rest of the tree. Maybe mixed with statecraft? That 1 science per specialist seems strong.

 

[DeAnno]

Also, any thoughts on mixing? The fealty opener seems appealing but I think I can skip the rest of the tree. Maybe mixed with statecraft? That 1 science per specialist seems strong.

I've had thoughts that with heavy specialists it might make sense to get the Artistry and Statecraft spec policies both for 5 total policies, though wrt the Statecraft one it's hard to keep CSes allied on high difficulty. If you do that you have one extra policy to play around with, since you likely started full Tradition in this maybe it's the Fealty opener? It might also be the Statecraft influence policy on the right if you want to try your hand at keeping some allies long term, 5/turn adds up.

 

[CrazyG]

I've had thoughts that with heavy specialists it might make sense to get the Artistry and Statecraft spec policies both for 5 total policies, though wrt the Statecraft one it's hard to keep CSes allied on high difficulty. If you do that you have one extra policy to play around with, since you likely started full Tradition in this maybe it's the Fealty opener? It might also be the Statecraft influence policy on the right if you want to try your hand at keeping some allies long term, 5/turn adds up.

In my example game I have progress. I was actually considering tradition second.

But I really like this approach. So fealty 1, statecraft 3, and artistry 2. That's a lot of science while also grabbing significant amounts of other yields and an extra spy.

 

[Stalker0]

I think there's lot to be gained from the "triumvirate" (Fealty 1+ Statecraft 1 + Artistry 1). All the openers are rock solid.

From there what to do with the other 3 policies? Fealty 2 and 3 (straight down the middle) are solid if your wide and have a lot of pastures (plays off open sky very well). From there I would pick up Statecraft 2 (probably the extra spy one...though if I'm getting it a lot later the TR one may be better).

Or go 3 more into statecraft, all of which are also good policies.

I don't feel that Artistry 2 is that great unless you are going super tall (in which case probably better to commit to it then go fealty). Then again, maybe you could set your extra fealty spy to a thief, and try to claim more GW that you gain benefits from off of Artistry.

 

[CrazyG]

I don't feel that Artistry 2 is that great unless you are going super tall (in which case probably better to commit to it then go fealty). Then again, maybe you could set your extra fealty spy to a thief, and try to claim more GW that you gain benefits from off of Artistry.

I think I would take it 6th. The 1 culture per city that has my interest. That scales really well into the late game.

Rhys approach has crazy science.
Flat 7 per city (3 for monastery, 3 for constabulary, 1 for artistry)
1 per 15
1 per specialist

Late game your cities can average around 30 pop with all scientists used, maybe guilds too. I count like 16 science per city, compared to artistry or fealty giving just 5.

 

[Stalker0]

I think I would take it 6th. The 1 culture per city that has my interest.

Does it? If your taking it as your 6th policy than you are already in late medieval, early renaissance. I don't feel an extra 1 culture per city is going to move the needle at all.

 

[CrazyG]

I'm a game right now, the mix looks very strong. Statecraft's science policy is great, I have scholarship so allied CS following my religion kick back about 10 science each. With the inspired works reformation belief your embassies get high science too, which you get 25% of.

It does take a while to get constabularies in all your cities though, you get 0 production (outside the capital) from any of these social policies. No happiness either, but I only have 6 cities.

Does it? If your taking it as your 6th policy than you are already in late medieval, early renaissance. I don't feel an extra 1 culture per city is going to move the needle at all.

Playing for a science victory I'd be surprised if you weren't in Renaissance on your 12th policy. I was actually 10 turns away from Industrial era when I got it, if I was already there I would have started Rationalism instead. I don't think you should reach industrial before your 12 policy unless your culture is just bad though

I mistyped, it's 1 culture per specialist. It was worth 25 culture when I took it, mostly in my capital. I had 220 culture not including it, and about 110 culture of bonus yields. I think it's better than the next fealty policy or the next statecraft policy. You want it last among these policies because you need time to build up great works. The policy was worth 37 golden age points, which adds up. It gave me an extra 14 science, which isn't much compared to my total but it's not nothing either.

Long term 1 culture per specialist is worth a lot. Later on all cities will be working every scientist, that's 4 with the core buildings, 2 more for observatories, and another 1 if you are Babylon or Korea. Plus guilds, and my capital has been working around 10 specialists for a while.

 

[Stalker0]

I mistyped, it's 1 culture per specialist...The policy was worth 37 golden age points, which adds up.

Oh that one, yes I should have realized it, and that is definitely a bit better in the culture department.

The golden age points... I'm still holding to the theory that GAP is just worthless past medieval, you trigger a couple of GAs with them, and then I feel artists completely take over. I don't feel getting a lot of GAP outside of very early in the game every did much in the game. Its been on my list to take a more concerted look at and try to determine what the truth is there.

 

[CrazyG]

The golden age points... I'm still holding to the theory that GAP is just worthless past medieval, you trigger a couple of GAs with them, and then I feel artists completely take over. I don't feel getting a lot of GAP outside of very early in the game every did much in the game. Its been on my list to take a more concerted look at and try to determine what the truth is there.

I think they make a difference. That policy in place all game adds up to thousands of points.

 

[a3kov]

The golden age points... I'm still holding to the theory that GAP is just worthless past medieval, you trigger a couple of GAs with them, and then I feel artists completely take over. I don't feel getting a lot of GAP outside of very early in the game every did much in the game. Its been on my list to take a more concerted look at and try to determine what the truth is there.

if you happen to start with GAP lux monopoly, you can get non-stop GA straight from Renaissance with Artistry + Chichen Itza + later Freedom. Artists not needed (maybe one).

 

[tothePAIN]

Oh that one, yes I should have realized it, and that is definitely a bit better in the culture department.

The golden age points... I'm still holding to the theory that GAP is just worthless past medieval, you trigger a couple of GAs with them, and then I feel artists completely take over. I don't feel getting a lot of GAP outside of very early in the game every did much in the game. Its been on my list to take a more concerted look at and try to determine what the truth is there.

Some games I build stadiums for GAP. Some games the GAP from the Tradition policy and Pyramids adds up to speed up golden ages. It matters. Every little bit does some games.

 

[CrazyG]

I'm really noticing the lack of golden age point in this approach, compared to full artistry. I missed Chichen Itza though.

 

[CrazyG]

I'm curious how people feel about Order vs Freedom for a SV? I tried order in my last game, it felt amazing until it came to actually build the parts. Their production cost is enormous and great engineers don't give that much (I had two manufactories, I find it hard to get more than that).

I also think I learned a lot from this approach. I haven't played in the late game much lately.

• 3 science per constabulary was not as important as I thought. At game end I still had cities without them.
• Hubble's social policy cost is really high. I had nanotechnology before I could start building it.
• Culture was really important in the mid-game. Creativity was a very good choice for religion.
• Great work heists happen about 4 to 5 times faster than a tech steal does.

 

[Stalker0]

I'm curious how people feel about Order vs Freedom for a SV? I tried order in my last game, it felt amazing until it came to actually build the parts. Their production cost is enormous and great engineers don't give that much (I had two manufactories, I find it hard to get more than that).

I also think I learned a lot from this approach. I haven't played in the late game much lately.

• 3 science per constabulary was not as important as I thought. At game end I still had cities without them.
• Hubble's social policy cost is really high. I had nanotechnology before I could start building it.
• Culture was really important in the mid-game. Creativity was a very good choice for religion.
• Great work heists happen about 4 to 5 times faster than a tech steal does.

So I still think Order's (blanking on the names), policy that lets you burn a GE is still too weak. Probably part of the issue is generally you want to bulb a number of GE's early for wonders. So compared to GS for example, you don't have that base to get really strong bulbs in the late game. It might be better that instead of a GE gives X% better bulb, that it gives a set amount of prod for SS parts...or maybe just counts as an investment.

The one that gives 250% ITR is much better. Once I'm in late game SV mode, I will switch all my ITRs to a couple of key production cities, and then their prod goes through the roof. Its not quite as good as the rush buy freedom policy (also there is a bug right now where buying one of the SS boosters actually invests in all of them), but its close enough that I usually can leverage teh science advantage order offers.

GW Heists as compared to spies in late game capitals....is more like 50-200 times faster Heists don't seem very affected by spy potential, so in late game when every cities potential drops to minimum, hiests are way way way faster than steal equivalents.

 

[azum4roll]

GW Heists as compared to spies in late game capitals....is more like 50-200 times faster Heists don't seem very affected by spy potential, so in late game when every cities potential drops to minimum, hiests are way way way faster than steal equivalents.

That doesn't look very intended... So your non-capital great works are never safe?

 

[Stalker0]

That doesn't look very intended... So your non-capital great works are never safe?

I don't know what would happen if counter spies are placed in the satellite cities, and I don't know if the AI is putting police stations there. But yeah I just recently really tried to use thieves in my CV analysis, and they are impressive to say the least.

 

[Cokolwiek]

I'm curious how people feel about Order vs Freedom for a SV?

Maybe when you are far ahead in techs and policies lead then freedom is better. It also depends on how tall and smol you are. Four city tradition will find freedom more manageable to get them into space than ten city progress. But I feel that order is just so much better for science victory overall that it is not even a contest.

3 science per constabulary was not as important as I thought. At game end I still had cities without them.

I concur that. Isn't it a statecraft policy?

I had two manufactories, I find it hard to get more than that

That's usually the number I reach also.

Culture was really important in the mid-game. Creativity was a very good choice for religion.

I think it's a bug that AI never seem to take creativity and value it so low so it tends to be assured for human player to be available. They could reap its benefits so quickly.

 

[CrazyG]

I concur that. Isn't it a statecraft policy?

Yes, that comment was about an experiment of taking a mix of statecraft, fealty, and artistry to maximize science output.

Maybe when you are far ahead in techs and policies lead then freedom is better. It also depends on how tall and smol you are. Four city tradition will find freedom more manageable to get them into space than ten city progress. But I feel that order is just so much better for science victory overall that it is not even a contest.

I kind of like tall order. Free factories, free research labs, and 20% production towards wonders are all nice for tradition.

 

[Cokolwiek]

I kind of like tall order. Free factories, free research labs, and 20% production towards wonders are all nice for tradition.

Me too. And I think it is still stronger for tall tradition going science than freedom. My point was it would be more achievable to select freedom and get science victory as tall tradition than as wide progress, but still secondary to order.

 

[CrazyG]

but still secondary to order.

I disagree just because of how expensive spaceship parts are. Freedom's investment is so good.

I'm kind of liking wide freedom for the golden age lengthener too. They are pretty evenly matched IMO and it depends a lot on your civ and other circumstances.