Minor Nations

[balthamael]

Nice ideas, guys.

 

[Albatoonoe]

Well, on top of that, it could be applied to one of my ideas(well, someone could have thought it up before).

Basically, as the diplomatic options get more complex, you can divide territories from the enemie countries. This would form minor nations as well. Revolutions could pop in, as well.

Now, it probably was stated before, but those are my two cents.

 

[Albatoonoe]

I forgot to add some stuff.

Some minor nations can take on a nomadic/pillaging lifestyles. They would conquer cities, but possibly kill some people, take some money, or something. Minor nations should compete, as well.

For the sake of new world concepts, maybe minor nations progress slower when there are no Major nations on the continent.

 

[Mewtarthio]

What's with all this thread necromancy going on lately? I'm all for old discussions being revived, but it's generally customary to find a relevant topic (or create one) and just link to the old one for reference.

 

[Ball Lightning]

I think having minor nations is a great idea! They should be able to have some techs, i've been in a game where someone didn't have drama and i had replaceable parts! You should also be able to trade gold with them!

 

[balthamael]

You should eb able to trade and make deals with them.

Maybe if they reach a certain Population(7.5%)/Culture(25,000?)/Technonlogy(reaches Nationhood)/Military(Has X Soldiers)/Land covered (owns 7.5% Land)point they should be awarded Major Civ status.

I think they should not spawn origianly, but barbarian cities should spawn early on (like turn 5) and if there are 2 or mroe barbarian cities in an area they may fight each and one conquer of peacefully unite,making a minor nation. This would cover up alot of space with minor nations that isnt taken early on. If you aid a Minor nation and steer it towards becominga major force, it would have massive +++Diplomatics with you.

 

[Veteranewbie]

Some ideas
1. In a standard size map minor city-states spawn after say, about 1000BC
2. Can be adjusted in the pre-game set up as to their level of occurence, size etc
3. Develop slower in continent with less civ or no major civ
4. A whole new system of diplomacy that won't make the current system overload with all the tradable things and leaderheads and such, with things like vassal state, allies etc.
5. Grow like a normal city, but slower (kinda like the barb cities now)
6. Eventually develop like current barb city develop rate
7. Can be at war with each other
8. Aggressive Barb huts spawning in shaded places to represent nomad tribes that will generate military units and will attack and raid cities, and if they capture cities they may raze it or leave it alone for someone else to capture or til it revolt back to its original civ/minor nation

For my own experiece, currently when I'm playing a game, I go to world builder when startup and places barbarian cities throughout the whole map with no raze city. So instead of growing by building settlers, Civs can only grow by building military and conquering barb cities (since the whole map is tightly packed with cities)
It works fine, there are still barb cities surviving to industrial age and it is catching up in technology. The only poor thing is there is no diplomacy between them and us but only constant war

 

[Öjevind Lång]

I like the idea of minor civs, but I don't think they should replace the goody huts or roaming barbarians. Simply let the barb cities that already exist in Civ IV evolve further than they can now and acquire a separate identity instead of just being "The Barbarian King".

Öjevind

 

[The Yankee]

I don't think those "little" nations should get many techs: they should get the basics at the beginning, like IW, BW, etc.. You think it's realistic to get to musketmen/infantry if no one wipes them of the Earth? Tribes like Papua and others NEVER progressed much and they're living today as they were been living since they were founded.

Perhaps it can be adjusted to how isolated a minor nation is. One on some island somewhere would be like your example, whereas one that survived alongside several major civs would be brought into more advanced technology (which would be possible if there was a basic diplomatic system covering minor nations as well, kind of like how you're not at war with a minor nation in Medieval: Total War until you declare war on them...perhaps something a little more complex than that).

As for the Incas, Mayas, etc... they really weren't that advanced as Greece, Egypt, Persia, to name a few: they were good for the land they were ruling, but no in no way they could have survived that long(as long as they lasted, anyway) if they were in Europe or Asia. Civilizations that made sacrifices were exactly that: tribes.
Don't get me wrong, though: they were great pre-civilized nations.

Well, who knows what the Incan tribes would be like if they were in Europe or Asia.

 

[Corvex]

I like this idea, if for no other reason than that it allows the incorporation of the nations which were historically important (but never became world powers) in the game.

 

[Chamaedrys]

I like this idea, if for no other reason than that it allows the incorporation of the nations which were historically important (but never became world powers) in the game.

I couldn't find better words.

 

[Mr. Dictator]

maybe possibly a goody hut could eventually become a minor civ

 

[chef pablo]

ive posted this before but at any rate here we go.. evidence has been pointing that cultivation and agriculture has been aroand alot longer than was origanaly thought ,tribes of papanew guinni have been farming for a long time and have found stone tools that date from before egypts empire,the clovis people of the amreicas had knoledge of farming..the assupmtion here is that the human race had this understanding before the great migration.What really was the key was finding the right grain to farm .a grain to not only sustain the tribe and feed a large heard of pack animals or beast of burden,but be a grain that was storable for the lean times,wheat turned out to be this grain and where did wheat naturally grow?the middle east.
the question is ,is there a way to use this info and turn it into gameplay for minor nations?

 

[nour3001]

There could be many origins of minor nations.
One,minor nations that start from the beginning,but have some penalties in growth and production in order to limit them early.There have been many like those small countries in the history that had a great role in development of the entire history but had no chance to become a major power in the world.
As said above (I don't remember who exactly said that),thier number could be customized when the game starts as few or lots or even none.
I guess they would be so limited in size due to the expansion of other big civs so they still wouldn't slower down the game so much.
They could affect diplomacy in many ways,being vassals for example,or become colonized,or even be totally conquered and that could give a wide variety of options in the game,what about a UN vote that prevents vassal states and guarantees freedom of those minor nations?,also those countires could unite together if they share borders and religions for example and form even a larger nation,or could be totally culturally swallowed by a major civ culture.
And about minor nations that grow bigger enough,they could turn into a major power,in fact that's historically true that many major countires in our modern world were just small powers or even tribes in the ancient world when there were other great powers,and those great powers of the past also faded away in the modern life.
For example,at the time of Alexnader the great there weren't most of the other major powers in the game such as England,France,Germany,Russia etc etc,and in the 17th century there weren't Carthage or Babylonians,that would introduce another idea which is turning a fading major civ into a minor civ if it was culturally or technologically so slow and incompetent,or lost a great territory of land within a war.This would allow for a dynamic state of fall and rise of nations in the game.
The 2nd type of minor nations are ones that separate from exsiting major nations,Let's say a major power had a very large territory and a variety of cultures and religions within its borders,and this major power's capital was captured during this war,that would trigger the separation of 3 taoist cities on the eastern side of the christain country and development of a new country,this could happen due to many causes and could be linked to espionage (a country triggers revolution in periphery) and to civics (a police state would have a less possibilty of this revolting than a democratic country,countires with free speech or free religion would have this less either).
Those powers could also develop after conquering a nation by other nations as an option instead of just keeping some cities on a far continent with all those maintainence costs and also the possibilty of them revolting against me (I conquered them after all),I could create two small minor countires that can act as allies for me in that area and even become my vassals and I get rid of the major civ I conquested same time,as happened in eurpoe after WWI and the development of new countires that never existed.(should give credit for who wrote civil wars thread cos the idea is similar)
Third type would be nations that develop out of barbarians,as said above, they would develop randomly and should have penalties even more than the minor nations mentioned above.These would help to fill empty areas of the world and prevent the rapid over expansions of some powers (in earth map in civ4 I repeatedly and in every game found that the largest powers were persia,russia,germany,egypt,china and for sure new world's 3 civs as they always had extra free space),and also could be culturally swallowed etc etc
On another thread (I give the credit to the writer who I really don't remember due to my bad memory) the idea of two types of Barbs,buliders who build cities and try even to be a major civ,and the militaristic type (similar to the idea of mongols campaigns in warlords expansion) would be formed of a rush of units that make a wave towards a civilized area and might give a real thread to civilizations there,and have some chance to settle down in conquered areas and even develop a civilzation of its own.
In the diplomacy area which would be so complicated that way,the minor nations could be allowed to have a diplomacy similar to the major ones,while the barbarian ones should have a very simplified diplomacy unless they became more "civilized" and promoted to a higher degree.
I guess I owe the you a BIG apology for making you read all that (If u got bored and stopped in the middle you probably can't read my apology LOL) but I just allowed my imaginary to flow.

 

[chef pablo]

i cant stress this enough ,wheat is the cornerstone of civilization,it fed the armys and free thinkers of the ancient world as the cultivation spread and they figured out how to grow it in colder regions other civs began to grow.When it reached central europe there were vast forest to collect to fuel new empires.hell if it wasnt for the bread basket of the US we could all be speaking german or japanese .
wheat is what should be used to model minor nations,how to do it i will leave it up to discusion.

 

[opus95]

This could be kind of an expansion on the Barbarian idea: Minor Nations. They would make the game a lot more realistic and fun to play. Here's how they could work:

Depending on the barbarian setting, you'd have a certain number starting out. Throughout the game, there could be a random chance like 1% every turn for a new one to pop up.

Until the expansion phase is over, they would produce only settlers, and get a free def. unit in each city. The settlers should take about 30 or 40 turns each though, so they will expand very slowly. These settlers cannot settle in places where their territories would be disconnected.

Each city would start out with radius 0, and have a max radius of 1, except the capital which would start out at 1 and have max 2 radius.

The minor nations don't make any gold or tech, but instead automatically gain each tech already known by every civilization 10 or 20 turns after it has been learned by the last one.

Corruption should be very high for these nations, regardless of what government they are in, to prevent them from getting too big.

A penalty to production might also be needed, but I think that those limitations would be enough to make it balancing.

This way, there aren't just the 8 or 16 major civs in the world, but it would be filled with countries, just like the real one. With enough of these small nations, it would make the expansion phase that much more challenging, as after the first few cities, you would be forced to start to fight for your land. There would of course still also be the other 8 or 16 major civs which would function just like normal ones; these minor nations would just be extra.

Yes!

After a while, these barbarian civs should start to spawn those "camps" (like in the "Barbarian Hordes" scenario in Warlords), which could produce galleys, catapults, etc ... and buy extra units based on their pillaging.

 

[Pitboss]

The idea kinda reminds me of Galactic Civilizations 2, I love it their, and would surely love it to see it in CiV4