Misrepresentation of Culture

[dunkleosteus]

Civ V neglects culture. There are only four techs that are arguably "culture focused", being Drama and Poetry, Accoustics, radio and Archaeology, while Archaeology is probably better called a science, it's still used for culture. It's kind of sad. After Radio, most techs are related to science and military. The information era has very few cultural innovations. Most culture in Civ V comes from wonders and great works.

There are tons of places to stick culture buildings or techs. Within the existing system, printing press has room for a cultural revolution. The first time the written word can reach the masses in their own homes. It could allow for newspapers, an amazing way to inform and communicate with the masses about current events, science and culture. Massing printing of novels becomes possible. Being a professional author is now a possibility.

We're missing techs too though. Where is television? Surely that must count as a significant technology if rifling does (not saying rifling isn't important, just that if such a small innovation can have entire tech to itself, so can television). Television is like a supercharge newspaper. It radiates culture into people's homes. Television should give a huge boost to both culture and tourism. Television also opens up room for brand new great works: syndicated TV shows. Untradeable works with better culture and tourism per turn, placed in a broadcast tower (or television network if you want to add that, requiring broadcast tower). We have broadway but what about hollywood? Was in a previous iteration of civ. Perfectly good wonder for great works of film.

We have the internet but it only doubles tourism. Culture and science aren't affected? Does anyone believe the internet shouldn't have an enormous impact on the world? The internet revolutionizes the cultural world that television created. Now, content can be created by anyone anywhere rather than by big production companies with lots of money. The internet should unlock a building (call it something arbitrary like "internet service"). Internet service gives +5% culture and tourism in the city for each n-1 internet services that are built in the world. The first city that builds it gets nothing at first. Once you've built two, each city gets +5%. At three you get +10%. At 4 you get +15%. What's incredibly important though is ANYONE can build them. If another civ builds their first one at this point, that city and your four all get +20%. The internet connects and unites the world, and the culture and tourism grows with the number of people that have access to it.

 

[algeriangeneral]

For that last "internet service" building. We can call it internet servers, internet provider ...

 

[killmeplease]

actually i play with the newspaper building unlocked at printing press (+25% culture, great writer slot), broadcast tower gives another +25% to culture and finally TV company at satellites +50%. In the game tourism should overwhelm culture at some point to make cultural victory achieveable. I think maybe add shopping mall to globalization providing plain +4 tourism and +1 per 10 yield of gold in the city.

another problem is - culture and science are just information, and every information technology like writing or internet may boost both. The devs separated culture techs from science techs so there is a choise. Its good for gameplay.

I think science should speed up more in the late game too as now its a drag, only relieved with mass GS bulb (what is dumb, GS should be used to bulb key techs throughout the game instead). Electronics may allow to build Supercomputer NW (+100% science in the city), Personal computers also to provide something science related, maybe boosting specialists.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

actually i play with the newspaper building unlocked at printing press (+25% culture, great writer slot), broadcast tower gives another +25% to culture and finally TV company at satellites +50%. In the game tourism should overwhelm culture at some point to make cultural victory achieveable. I think maybe add shopping mall to globalization providing plain +4 tourism and +1 per 10 yield of gold in the city.

There were newspapers published as far back as the late Renaissance, but the real 'jump' came with the invention of the high-speed (steam) powered press (1814 CE) which made daily newspapers possible - also mass weekly and monthly magazines, cheap paperback books ('dime novels') and a massive increase in the spread of cultural phenomena - also a dramatic increase in Great Writers since the demand for writing of any kind to fill all the mass-produced media was huge.

Likewise, Television was a mass entertainment/information channel by the mid to late 1950s CE, long before the communications satellite. The comm satellite's big influence was to make mass personal mobile communication possible - along with the integrated circuit, it made the cell phone possible, with enormous implications for communications (and propaganda) and, eventually, acted as a massive 'add on' to the effects of the Internet.

If I were revamping everything, I'd add Mass Print Media as an Application of Steam Power, which allows the Print Plant building, which in turn gives a +33% to Culture, and a Great Writer Slot, then at Radio the Broadcast Tower would give a +25% to Culture and a Great Musician slot, at Electronics the Television Network building could be added for +25% Culture and finally, the Satellite plus Internet increases the effects of the Print Plant, Broadcast Tower and Television Network buildings by +50% (assuming the Broadcast Tower now becomes a Cell Phone Tower, the massive conversion of Print Media to Electronic Media happens, and the Television Network studio remains, as now, a source for Web/Internet-based entertainment and news)

another problem is - culture and science are just information, and every information technology like writing or internet may boost both. The devs separated culture techs from science techs so there is a choise. Its good for gameplay.

Actually, 'Culture' is a little more than simple Information or Access to Information - deeply ingrained culture is like religion in that it can be remarkably resistant to 'outside' information and usually, when Culture changes as a result of science or other informational influence, it is a gradual rather than a revolutionary change. I think on the evidence of history, that Religion and Culture should be far more closely connected than Science and either one. Religious, Cultural, Moral, personal belief systems all are interconnected, and new technologies and sciences may change some of them slowly, but as a whole they are remarkably resistant to conversion. I think there should be much more 'crossover' effects between Social Policies and Religious Beliefs or Policies, while the influence of the Tech Tree will be more in the speed with which those Social and Religious effects can spread - and come into contact and conflict with Other Religious and Social Policies.

I think science should speed up more in the late game too as now its a drag, only relieved with mass GS bulb (what is dumb, GS should be used to bulb key techs throughout the game instead). Electronics may allow to build Supercomputer NW (+100% science in the city), Personal computers also to provide something science related, maybe boosting specialists.

In the late game there are a number of 'Mass Multiplier' technologies that should dramatically increase the science rate - and probably also increase the Unhappiness rate as more and more people become uncomfortable with the rate of change! As mentioned above, starting with the Powered Printing Press in the early Industrial Era, the Broadcast Tower, Radio and Television, Railroad, Steamship, air travel (Airports), Electronics, Internet, Satellites - all dramatically increase the overall rate of scientific change - and the rate at which cultural and other influences can spread. By the 'Information Era' because of Mass Communications, I think that most of the buildings that formerly would have influence only in the city in which they were built, would now influence the entire nation: a Supercomputer or, say, a Research Lab like DARPA or Bell Labs produces scientific changes and 'raw' science that has effect far beyond the individual city.

 

[killmeplease]

There were newspapers published as far back as the late Renaissance, but the real 'jump' came with the invention of the high-speed (steam) powered press (1814 CE) which made daily newspapers possible - also mass weekly and monthly magazines, cheap paperback books ('dime novels') and a massive increase in the spread of cultural phenomena - also a dramatic increase in Great Writers since the demand for writing of any kind to fill all the mass-produced media was huge.

english great writers start from 1600s, i think its half-renaissance (if industrial starts in late 1700s), so having the newspaper (or publishing house? theres an unused newspaper icon in civ assets so its easier ) at printing press is allright, as if you dont prioritize PP you'll get your newspapers and more writers just by the end of the renaissance.
maybe the library should have a writing slot then, so the player could host more writings.
or there were a national library NW?

Likewise, Television was a mass entertainment/information channel by the mid to late 1950s CE, long before the communications satellite. The comm satellite's big influence was to make mass personal mobile communication possible - along with the integrated circuit, it made the cell phone possible, with enormous implications for communications (and propaganda) and, eventually, acted as a massive 'add on' to the effects of the Internet.

yeah i know but theres no fitting tech in the atomic era.
mass mobile communication relies on land stations afaik. and it should be a commercial technology like +1 gold per 4 citizens?
what satellites did - allowed to broadcast to remote/undeveloped/sparsely populated locations where land infrastructure is uneconomic.

If I were revamping everything, I'd add Mass Print Media as an Application of Steam Power, which allows the Print Plant building, which in turn gives a +33% to Culture, and a Great Writer Slot, then at Radio the Broadcast Tower would give a +25% to Culture and a Great Musician slot, at Electronics the Television Network building could be added for +25% Culture and finally, the Satellite plus Internet increases the effects of the Print Plant, Broadcast Tower and Television Network buildings by +50% (assuming the Broadcast Tower now becomes a Cell Phone Tower, the massive conversion of Print Media to Electronic Media happens, and the Television Network studio remains, as now, a source for Web/Internet-based entertainment and news)

steam power is too close to radio.. and why tower is only +25%? later buildings should provide larger or at least same modifiers for their relative effect to remain substantional.
i like great musician idea, maybe tv should provide an artist slot then? though it doesnt fit well there.
the game lacks movie makers maybe its because of intellectual property rights, i heard it occured to be quite expensive to include video footage in civ2 so they decided not to do it for the later games. with movies it could be even worse.

Actually, 'Culture' is a little more than simple Information or Access to Information - deeply ingrained culture is like religion in that it can be remarkably resistant to 'outside' information and usually, when Culture changes as a result of science or other informational influence, it is a gradual rather than a revolutionary change. I think on the evidence of history, that Religion and Culture should be far more closely connected than Science and either one. Religious, Cultural, Moral, personal belief systems all are interconnected, and new technologies and sciences may change some of them slowly, but as a whole they are remarkably resistant to conversion. I think there should be much more 'crossover' effects between Social Policies and Religious Beliefs or Policies, while the influence of the Tech Tree will be more in the speed with which those Social and Religious effects can spread - and come into contact and conflict with Other Religious and Social Policies.

yeah religion is a cultural thing. its just a most catchy form of a meme. i personally dont quite like faith points, maybe beliefs should be like policies but "infectious"... i think it would be interesting to develop a culture mechanic based on the meme concept.

In the late game there are a number of 'Mass Multiplier' technologies that should dramatically increase the science rate - and probably also increase the Unhappiness rate as more and more people become uncomfortable with the rate of change! As mentioned above, starting with the Powered Printing Press in the early Industrial Era, the Broadcast Tower, Radio and Television, Railroad, Steamship, air travel (Airports), Electronics, Internet, Satellites - all dramatically increase the overall rate of scientific change - and the rate at which cultural and other influences can spread. By the 'Information Era' because of Mass Communications, I think that most of the buildings that formerly would have influence only in the city in which they were built, would now influence the entire nation: a Supercomputer or, say, a Research Lab like DARPA or Bell Labs produces scientific changes and 'raw' science that has effect far beyond the individual city.

rate of change unhappiness is interesting. could be a counter to science mongering.
agree about buildings.. maybe there should be more world-wide stuff like the OP's internet service building idea which is apparently awesome. weapon trading, foreign investment, internet should have global effects and help backward civs to catch up and get a chanse to win.

 

[dunkleosteus]

Culture probably can be characterized in different ways though. Traditional culture could be foods, clothing and traditions that a social group practices. Religious observances would probably fall into this category. The other type of culture would be the media that we consume. Civ seems to classify these the same way.

 

[Naokaukodem]

It's pretty much logical, as Civ5 hasn't a cultural victory. (tourism =/= culture)

The only thing that itches me in all Civs since Civ3 is the way cultural radius = property.

That led to the awful tile switch of Civ4 (beyond frustration in higher difficulty levels), and among that the fact that you couldn't work tiles of a newly conquered city deep inside your enemy territory, making this city useless unless you razed 3 more of them. (and considering war weariness in that game, that was very tough)

That's why I love how the entire radius remains on conquest in Civ5.

Plus, it's not because your neighbours share your culture that they enter automatically in your nation, as the tile acquisition suggests, and it's not because they do not share your culture that they won't join.

One thing is sure : acquisition is made principally by war. There can be colonies also, but they seem easier in a deserted (humanly) land such as the one of Civ. In reality it would be trickier to send a defenseless settler from a 4 size camp, just because at those times the whole Earth is controlled. Sending settlers would be more the task of an already powerful entity that can grant its settlers the needed protection against the barbs / nomads / all kinds of population.

If colonization would be a solution as in the land is as empty as it seems, then first to discover would own. Your scouts would gain territory as long as they advance and don't encounter lands already explored/owned. The result would be a tiny village in -3000 that has the territory of Rome.

It's silly because first in reality such a territory couldn't be controlled, so your territory wouldn't grant you vision and anyone could pass through unseen, or even plant cities in the middle of it. So it would be your territory without being your territory in the same time.
Second, you could indeed grant vision to your territory ingame, but that would be highly unrealistic as a tiny camp can't have that much control, and by the way, do not express those kinds of needs.
So it's broken by both capacities and needs.

One good way to represent the right needs and control capacities, and in the same time unlink culture from territory control, is Civ1 and Civ2 : you start with your whole BFC, and only the tiles you work are considered your territory. Only problem with that : sometimes a tile you consider yours is "stolen" by a neighbour, annihilating your anticipation needs. (plus wouldn't work for nomads that you are supposed to be more or less at start)

The thing is, in a world (pre-agriculture) where population doesn't grow, people have no anticipation needs except their daily ones. It's only the player, who knows the future, and that plays a game in order to win, that has these needs. So it may be frustrating, but it's realistic. Now the nomad part brings more problems : not only people without a single farm needs territory, but what about the links they had with the surroundings before the game started ?

But it's a little beyond the purpose of this topic, so I'll stop here.