Mobiltiy and Transportation

Oni

Machiavelli
Joined
Jun 23, 2004
Messages
192
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US
Many players (including myself) feel that the train system limits strategy once achieved. I have thought about how this shoul dbe changed and came up with a few things that should go with it :)

I had been thinking for a bit on how I would like to see both distance and size of the city have an impact. My logic is simple here. Distance is the obvious (this is in fact the whole problem... Sending your entire military clear across the continent in one turn). Size because I feel that a big city has alot of trains headed towards it. therefore it should cost little time or resources for the government to send its military to it.

Its like this... Say you live in New York. A train ticket to New York City can be bought for just about any hour of the day... But if you want to go to teh boondocks you may have to wait a day or two since the trains are limited to there.

Well I have decided that direct connection to size is to complicated since it is often likely to have a large city next to a small city... But transportation to either should be about the same. So here is what I came up with starting with changes to not just the railways.

Two additions to Roadway use and construction:

1.
Automobile Acheivment-
Leads to the building of Asphalt Roads. These Roads are changed much like Railways are constructed currently. There use however is signifigantly different. They simply double the effectiveness of the Road (i.e. 1 movment units can move 6 on an ALL Asphalt Road).

2.
Sophisticated traffic laws Acheivment(er something like that)
Allows Highways. Highways do not need to be built. Once acheived all roads (ashphalt or not) are doubled for effectiveness. So if a 1 Movment Unit is traveling on an All asphalt road and this achevment has been acomplished it can effectively travel 12 tiles!

Ok now for the big changes to Railways.
Firstly when Railway construction is acheived it leads not to Railway construction but rather 'Train Stations', Build 'Train', and construct Rail Route. The idea remains much the same in that it is one turn movement.. However.. To where depends (read on)

Train Station:
Rather than allow fast effective movement to any city only cities with Train Stations and are directly connected by a train route can use one turn access.

Build Train:
Each train Station comes with one train. However, a city can build more trains (up to a limit.. Maybe 2 or 3 is max total). Each train can hold so many units (say 5 to 10) and can travel along one of the cities train Routes Once per turn.

Construct Rail Route:
A rail route can only be constructed in certain areas. Firstly it must be constructed with a road already in place (DOES NOT REMOVE THE ROAD!!!). Nextly they must be cost bennificial. This means that one can not build a direct route for two cities bypassing multiple cities inbetween. In stead the route must go directly to the nearest city.

A valid route algorithm is constructed as follows. Label shortest Road path to the closest city as a valid route.

Check the 2nd closest city and others outwards until a succession of no match is found (succession meaning a few no matches or something) as follows,
if the route to the current station being checked has a route 1/4 (or less... ofcourse is number should be tested) the distance to a station which has made a route for the station being checked do not match it.

The idea here is to only allow for routes to be made beween cites in which are logical. Allow you can travel by train from Chicago to Houston you will hav eto stop in many cities along the way.. And this will also slow your trip down.

Routes should be able to be build directly from city production OR from worker help.

Upgradable!
Now for the kicker.... This is what will bring the train system to its full effectiveness. Although I think with the initial discovery of Railways they will be very effective and usefull espeacially in a time of war.

eventually Express Way sytems should be acheived. This would allow for an 'Expressway Station'. This train stations will use the old railroutes (so no need to build more) and come with their own train also. Again more express trains can be built.
Express trains can go directly from once express station to another express station.

Well thats it :D

Hope you like my idea and I hope something simular gets implimented.... Cause as I said. The current mobility for later games kills the strategy. I think this system would slow that process down and actually add strategy durring the process... For example

What city to focuss on building routes first? What city should build alot of trains? Which cities need the express stations the most? And then of course sacking your oppenents cities with trains :D
 
Well since no one has commented I wonder if anyone understands. I did write it late last nite on my way out of the lab so I guess it is a bit confusing. I will re-iterate.

Firstly Roads need to be seperated from the idea of railways. Their only connection should be you need a road in the tile to build a railway (but it should not replace it). This is because roads can then remain as a 'self' traveling means (using the units movement).

In addition with this seperation roads should receive some upgrades. The two I have come up with are Pavement with the Automabile acheivment and Highways with a Traffic Law acheivment.
The first would obviously be an upgradable feature... And upgrading would be necessary to use, where as the Highways would be automatic and bennefit both styles of roads that exist (paved and non-paved.... incase not all roads have been changed yet, which is very likely).
These acheivements could come firstly in the Industrial Age.. and then Highways early Modern times (atleast thats what I think would have the greatest effect).


As for Railways they are their own seperate entity. In a sence they would be comparable to an airport but early on not as effective and later on more effective (as long as you got the rails).

Firstly a worker does not build a one section railway... They must instead build an entire route (much the same way a route is built for a road). The only difference is only routes to close cities can be built. In this way one can not have a direct train route from their capital to all their outlieing cities.
First they must build a route to the closest cities. Then if those cities have train stations they can build routes to their closest cities.. and so on and so on.

The idea here is railways are expensive to build and maintain. It would be illogical for a government to build tons of railways connecting every city to every city directly. Instead they are interlinked.

As for the train stations they work like an airport BUT they can send more units (5~10 or something like that). This is because they can not just send it clear across the continent. They must send it to the next city and if there is a usable train in that city they can be sent to the next connected city.. So they can be sent to the outskirts of the country... Just so long as the controller is willing to use all of the trains at their disposle to do so.

NOTE : I had suggested the capabiltiy of building extra trains. this would nto be required but I think add strategy and more incetive to use trains early on (or some players may feel they should wait for the ExpressWay stations to actually put any effort into train routes).

Another thing is I think NON-City trainstations should be able to be built. Just like Airports. That way someone could put a trainstation by his enemy and gradually build up forces (or deport some captured workers :evil: ).

Lastly there would be an Upgrade for the TrainStation (can't be built unless TrainStation is there already... city or not). This would be the Express way system. It would use the same rails which have been constructed and would have the capabiltiy of sending its Express Trains to any other express way station.


So in the end... If one built Express way stations all over.. or just built alot of trains it would be very simular to the way it is now... BUT it would take a process and there would be alot of strategy involved in getting there.

In addition an enemy could capture your cities at stranglehold spots and cut you off your railway easier.

Well please comment :)
 
Actually, during the US Civil War, trains were used extensively to move troops. There was never a problem with the trains having to stop in a designated city (they often stopped in the middle of nowhere to let the troops off).

I personally think that having ground transports with variable movement (based on technology) would be the best way to simulate the limits of train and truck movement.
 
The only reason they would stop is if they trains were limited.

Keep in mind that the trains for one DID go through other cities... It wasn't just a direct rail line to the designated city.... IN addition keep in mind they could only send what they had trains for. NOT ALL TROOPS. This system would mimic it. Yeah the trains would stop... But that could be fixed with an option to send all the way to whatever city (as long as enough trains are active).

My point is just to put more strategy back into transportation. Current railways are overpowered and limit the effectiveness of other means (boat and air). This should partially be the case.. But not so immediate.

Until now the only suggestions have been limited to what I have suggested for road changes (an improved speed). However I think that ruins the idea of the railway system. IMO Something simular to what I have suggested would mimic the actuality of the railway system compared to other trainsportation means.
 
It is true that there is a certain maximum capacity before train networks just can't take anymore cars. However, the transportation and all the industires attached to it would produce to whatever level their clients(here being the government) needed. It would cost more, but the gov would raise taxes so it all evens out. Increasing road speed is a good idea.
 
Chukchi_Husky said:
New transportation options? If that become more complex it would end up like Transport Tycoon.

Very true. While I did like Transport Tycoon Deluxe(I have it on my computer right now), I would not want to play it at the same time as civ. Plus, I really liked watching my super-efficient networks run trains in tandem with planes. If you did this with trains, then you would have to do the same with planes.
 
Well my first imput on it could complicate things more than needed. But that doesn't mean it can't be simplified to still hold the same values.

I don't think rails should be limited like roads. The meaning of them would change to much. I would rather see something liek I suggested about 'paved roads'. Just makes more sence for that type (move 6 for 1 or something).. Then lastly the highways would be cool doubling all orad movement.. Paved or not. This in itself could be a good enough transportation method until airports come along. So therefore the whole railway could be ditched.

But they shouldn't be.

It could just be a early airport type system. But it has a disadvantages and an advantages comparitively.

AIRPORT COMPARISON

SIMULARITIES-
City structure is necessary (can be destroyed by bombardment)
Non city structure can be built to allow outside of city transport](can be destroyed by bombardment)
Imediate transportation
Limitations to total units from one city


DISADVANTAGES-

Railways must be contructed between cities.
---Can't go off continent
---Takes time to get system fully running
---Worker occupation

ADVANTAGES-
More units to transport
Early on Tech
Still usable after airports are acheived

--------------------------------------------

So with these base concepts in mind, the idea of trains can be simplified to limiting each train station to a certain amount of units. (no need to build any trains).
In addition rather than transport it to the next city to board another train they can go to a city (or space) with a train station as long as it is connected by a railway.

Lastly to signify better trains a tech could simply allow more transports (5->8 or something).
 
I like the infinite movement on RR, it helps keep with the rest of the pace of modern combat. There are a couple idea I have seen and would like to modify.

I always thought roads should have the one-way transfer ability. Maybe it should be paved roads(Engineering) and it would allow one-way transfers of units in cities with a Transport Hub(Improvement). Unlimited unit use, since roads canbe walked. It should still offer 6 for 1 movement in non-transfer movement.

Then there should also be a couple distinct RR types. The first type, Steam Engine RR, would allow a one-way transfer from a city with a train station to any one square. After that you move like you are on whatever raod is underneath.

After Deisel or something similair comes along, RR movement should be a one-way transfer from any one square to another. AFter that you move like you are on whatever road is underneath.

Motorized Transport would double road movement if you had Oil in your resource box. It would also allow you to build Asphault roads, which have a base 12 to 1 movement, and with the Auto bonus would give you 24 to 1 movement.

I know it adds a tiny bit of complexity by requiring you to doa transfer movment, but that solves the issue involving units fighitn gon one side of a continent and fortifying on the other. Transfers coudl only occur before other movements were made.
 
Agreed. One of the things I most disliked from CIVs is the unlimited movement from railroads. Even in CIV II & I you could move ground units faster than planes, and in CIV 3 you can actually use an infantry in the battlefield that was stored in the opposite corner of the continent in the same turn, but you cannot do it with bombers or jets :confused:

I like all these ideas very much, and I would like to add one, I think you should not be able to base air units in cities where you do not have airports. This would somehow restrict the usability of bombers, so I think this should be compensated with enhancing their range. :goodjob:
 
An idea: tunnels.
If two pieces of land are separated by one tile of water, there should be an option to build a rail tunnel (like the Eurotunnel and the tunnel that links Honshu with Hokkaido).
 
My opinion on air units:

(1) Make aircraft range somewhat variable based on map size. Their might be some balance issues because ground units don't get the same deal.
(2) Re-base should be a free movement. This means that once you perform an aircraft mission, all the aircrafts moves are used up and its physical presence is tied to where it was based. But it is rediculous that aircraft take an entire turn just to move a couple hundred miles. This would also make aircraft able to have a much more supporting role in combat operations, especially since airpower was a key tenet of the German Blitzkrieg in '39.

Just for clarification:
Bomber 'x' does a mission from base 'a' on target 'a'. His turn is over. The next turn he re-bases to base 'b' and hits target 'b'. This means he hit two different targets in two turns. It also means that if base 'a' was overrun, he wouldn't be around to attack base 'b'. He also couldn't hits somewhere and then run to a safe base.
 
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