Modeling Scientific and Cultural Progress

I wonder if both tech trees will have some sort of future tech or will it be simply impossible to research everything before the game ends?
In civ4 it was useful (+1 happy and +1 health), in civ5 it was useless.
Btw, the idea of a second tech tree didn't make it in ... civ1.
 
If it's a great people thing, isn't pop = science somewhat realistic then? Most human attributes, like intelligence, are distributed normally. It is much more likely to find someone with an IQ of 160 in a population of 10000 than 1000.


Seems obvious to me, sensible, balanced and fun.

Maybe the OP thinks he's trying to simulate real life in every aspect when playing Civ.

It's a game so that ain't happening..
 
Transition to agricultural society was itself a major technological development born of geographic circumstances (witness the first societies springing up in the most fertile locations), which led to major increases in population concentration, and subsequent advancement. So geography and population seem both rightly to have a place in tech development.

There were some developments borne of nomadic/pastoral cultures especially of military significance, but especially nowadays, tech advancement is a function of not just agricultural society but the next step of industrialization in particular.

I would argue that the major factor in tech advancement for the whole of civilization though besides some key 'eurekas' :) in history, was diffusion, such as that simulated by the mechanic of lowering research times for those civs that haven't researched the tech in question yet, and by science points on trade routes. Almost none of the advances in the tech tree of humanity were independently developed by anyone, just one good idea that caught on and spread over time.

I dislike the dominance of science as a 'god resource' in civ and like having more ways for science knowledge to increase/diffuse/etc without deploying economic resources at it.
 
I'd the better ratio of science is science = excess food. A Civilization cannot focus on tech and culture until it can feed itself.

When people don't having to hit the farms, they can invent planes and trains.
 
I'd the better ratio of science is science = excess food. A Civilization cannot focus on tech and culture until it can feed itself.

When people don't having to hit the farms, they can invent planes and trains.

It is not that easy ...

People who have enough food to not work may become great philosophers, artists, musicians, politicians, playboys ... they may study, go to a party or just do nothing. They do not necessarily invent General Theory of Relativity just because they have the time to do it ...

On the other side people working on a farm may very well improve agricultural tech or giving a cross reverence to improve other things based on their agricultural knowledge. This often depends on free flow of information and ideas as well as if there is a benefit for them. In Roman Empire, most farm workers were slaves so there was no incentive to improve/optimize/automate farm work since the slaves would not profit and instead be sent to work elsewhere. The massive number of available slaves led to a low rate of automatisation, since the slaves were there, had to be fed and had to be kept busy. Roman knowledge was big enough to automate things with water wheels, wind mills or by using animal power as source of labour / energy, but they often did not use this knowledge since there were enough slaves (and enough food).

In Civ1 the rate of trade (-> science) was connected with the type of government, having highest yields for democracy (free flow of information and ideas, personal benefit) and lowest yields for despotism (no free flow of information and ideas, no personal benefit).
 
I'd the better ratio of science is science = excess food. A Civilization cannot focus on tech and culture until it can feed itself.

When people don't having to hit the farms, they can invent planes and trains.
I think what you mean by "excess food" is modelled by specialist citizens or, in Civ VI, citizens working the science district (or other districts).

I agree that's a big part and also makes gameplay sense. But it can't be the *whole* source of techs. That doesn't make sense from a gameplay perspective, since you need to start discover techs before you have a campus, or from a real world perspective, since some intentions were made in the process of farming or the equivalent of working land tiles. Plus, people invent things in their spare time or unrelated to work at times. So, the question is how to balance those specialist and non-specialist factors.
 
Actually I do think they could just take away the pop boost. Seeing how eureka moments add 30-50% to the tech, the buildings and all should be enough to finish the rest within reasonably the same amount of time as in CiV.

On the "empire size matters" debate, I don't think a big empire would be better of. looking back at history, it was the combination of great people, and the rich sponsors that allowed for technological advancements to be used throughout an empire.
a person might be smart, but without money, you cant really do much, granted some inventions made money, but have some sort of benefactor was essential for some of our greatest scientists.
And so even with an empire being 10x bigger, you would still have the rich find these talented people, whose chances are not increased by a bigger population, as a person only passes by such and so many each day, often staying in their own areas of a city (avoiding the game acknowledges term district here)
 
Okay, all of this aside, do we know how science actually works in VI yet? All I've seen is that you get bonus science from districts and buildings, but what is the base?

I'm a little concerned that there may be no 'base' at all in Civ VI. The bonuses we've been shown so far are all +1 and +2 science for doing things that aren't especially replicatable, as opposed to proportional bonuses that will stay relevant throughout the game. I just can't see where all of the science will come from without it dwarfing the bonuses we've seen so far. It's a little worrying that, given what we've seen so far, wide empires will be heavily favoured over tall, given that bonuses are flat and seem to improve based on number of cities rather that city quality.
 
Okay, all of this aside, do we know how science actually works in VI yet? All I've seen is that you get bonus science from districts and buildings, but what is the base?

I'm a little concerned that there may be no 'base' at all in Civ VI. The bonuses we've been shown so far are all +1 and +2 science for doing things that aren't especially replicatable, as opposed to proportional bonuses that will stay relevant throughout the game. I just can't see where all of the science will come from without it dwarfing the bonuses we've seen so far. It's a little worrying that, given what we've seen so far, wide empires will be heavily favoured over tall, given that bonuses are flat and seem to improve based on number of cities rather that city quality.

We have no info, but since the bonuses are raw numbers instead of percents, most likely there's no science from population. So, I expect some basic level from either Palace or city itself and the rest coming from buildings.
 
We have no info, but since the bonuses are raw numbers instead of percents, most likely there's no science from population. So, I expect some basic level from either Palace or city itself and the rest coming from buildings.

I suspect that's true. If so, I'm worried about the viability of going tall. From the little information we have so far, wide seems to be strictly better. Hopefully other mechanics will help tall empires.
 
I suspect that's true. If so, I'm worried about the viability of going tall. From the little information we have so far, wide seems to be strictly better. Hopefully other mechanics will help tall empires.

Tall shouldn't be as viable as wide, IMHO. There are several threads about it :)
 
Tall shouldn't be as viable as wide, IMHO. There are several threads about it :)

I think it should be balanced so that it is just as viable to try to build a tall empire as a wide empire. The game shouldn't be setup to vastly favor one vs the other.

Also most of greatest nations in Earth's history were tall more than they were wide. The wealthiest, most advanced nations are tall while the widest nations are mostly third world nations full of poverty and backwardness.
 
I think it should be balanced so that it is just as viable to try to build a tall empire as a wide empire. The game shouldn't be setup to vastly favor one vs the other.

Also most of greatest nations in Earth's history were tall more than they were wide. The wealthiest, most advanced nations are tall while the widest nations are mostly third world nations full of poverty and backwardness.
The problem with tall over wide is always the question of:

1. No incentive to expand leading to empty land late game
2. If a small country can have powerful cities it seems gamebreaking and weird that a large country cant also have powerful cities
3. Historically, small countries actually are usually weak. They become strong actually through becoming wide just not using military conquering direclty. Like medieval vatican city, swiss banking, french art and plenty othees that held a heavy influence over others.
 
The problem with tall over wide is always the question of:

1. No incentive to expand leading to empty land late game
2. If a small country can have powerful cities it seems gamebreaking and weird that a large country cant also have powerful cities
3. Historically, small countries actually are usually weak. They become strong actually through becoming wide just not using military conquering direclty. Like medieval vatican city, swiss banking, french art and plenty othees that held a heavy influence over others.

Yes. Also, having less cities requires much less effort than having more of them. So this needs to be compensated by the game being more difficult in other aspects.

Of course, at the same time no-brain strategies like early expansion or snowballing need to be restraint.
 
Also most of greatest nations in Earth's history were tall more than they were wide. The wealthiest, most advanced nations are tall while the widest nations are mostly third world nations full of poverty and backwardness.

Wanted to refute this as it's categorically untrue and also myopic in its scope.

Historically, large tall empires were vastly more advanced, rich, or politically relevant compared to smaller neighbors which had to bend in certain respects to these empires or their rivals.
Take the Roman Empire, the Rashidun Caliphate, the Han and Tang Dynasties and many more relevant polities across many different time periods.
Even if you look in the modern era, the United States dominates in all sectors and it doesn't look "tall" to me.

People look at small countries being richer or more advanced than larger ones and it's largely a modern conceit created through the aftermath of WWII with de-colonization and globalization.
It's a phase that will pass, at least in terms of wealth. What hasn't changed is that in every period of time, every relevant power in its respective landscape has been "wide".
With the British Empire and Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan in WWII, or the United States and the USSR in the Cold War, or even now, with ascendant China and India, it's all been wide.
Off the top of my head, it's been wide since Egypt and the Hittite Empire with the Battle of Kadesh as an early example of large powers controlling the destinies of small entities around them,
and probably with even more examples before that.

Wide polities dominate and set the tone for the political landscape in all of history.

The problem with tall over wide is always the question of:

1. No incentive to expand leading to empty land late game
2. If a small country can have powerful cities it seems gamebreaking and weird that a large country cant also have powerful cities
3. Historically, small countries actually are usually weak. They become strong actually through becoming wide just not using military conquering direclty. Like medieval vatican city, swiss banking, french art and plenty othees that held a heavy influence over others.

Fundamentally, yeah, that's wrong in a game where one of the primary focuses of the game is to expand. If I had to apply bonuses for designing a tall playstyle, it certainly wouldn't be to make their cities better just by slapping on a Research penalty with successive cities. It would make more sense to tackle the landscape, like say if your empire has fewer than six cities, it would impose more penalties on AI/players DoWing you. On an OCC, or if you're only maybe 2 or 3 cities tall, the other AIs could conceivably be likely to dogpile your aggressor or come to your aid at a lower cost. Conceivably as a player-only benefit because too much turtling to avoid getting dogpiled when you are trying to pick off small civs yourself would dampen the action. (Addressing player psychology on active avoidance of penalties; see razing all cities but the capital in Civ5).
 
I'd say the penalties should be designed in a way to make snowballing less effective, but on the other hand, to not punish being wide. So, let's say X is amount of science output of default city. Output from 2 cities should be less than X*2, but more than X (the same for culture). As long as this rule applies with any number of cities (adding more cities gives less science for each new city, but adding city never decreases science output), the system should work.

Alternatively, it's possible to not punish snowballing with culture and science output at all and have limits in other areas.
 
Probably the easiest way is for scientific progress to be shared....
science rate ~ population...but the pop of everyone you know.
Research your own techs....and as soon as you get it everyone else you know learns it in X turns. (X goes down based on Your science rate v. Cost of tech)
 
Why don't they just bring back commerce, or do something similar (like if science came primarily from working tiles)? Civ 6 has quite a few new features I'm looking forward to; I hope this doesn't ruin it...
 
What's realistic for science production? Slider bar. Slider bar is clearly the most realistic and "complex" and least dumbed down model we have, because that's the way Civ IV did it.
 
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