[MoO2] Demolith on impossible, a report

n0cx

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 4, 2013
Messages
22
Hello everyone,

this is my second attempt on finishing the game on impossible. Again, I am playing Demolith, game settings are impossible, 8 players, pre-warp, events on, Antarans attack, huge. My goals this game are:
1) Survive
2) Win (by Galactic Council vote)
My race picks look like this:

ab09b.jpg

I'm not going to rush Orion this game, so I thought playing with GRHW/RHW instead of artifacts would be of more use, especially if my home system hadn't any nice planets. I took the malus on ship attack this time, because I'm going to use mostly missile boats until mid or late game when I have some good computers around to compensate for this.

Universe looks like this:
ab08s.jpg

Phew, my homeworld's system does suck! No asteroid, just one another planet, which is large & radiated with 5 pop and normal minerals.

I started by putting seven pop on research and kept 1 on housing. I quickly had research labs, followed by automated factories and a colony base in turn 26. In turn 56, my colony ship to the yellow star on my right arrived and I colonised a huge (8 pop) rich heavy-G ocean. Next thing to do was researching onto Mercs and build a few ships to take an ultra-rich low-G large (pop 18) terran world orbiting the orange star to my upper left, guarded by a space dragon.

By turn 107, I made first contact:
ab06.jpg

It's the Humans! And they have +2 food production as bonus this time. Nothing to worry about. They are to my left and within attack-range, if I take this precious dragon-star *g*
Which made me do worry was the next contact, just 4 turns later. It's the Coids to my right, stretching their empire upwards at the galaxy's edge to the middle. And they are some serious über-race this time:
ab05.jpg

Well, at least the Coids don't have Unification... :rolleyes:
They will become a problem on my way to winning the vote. And I'll have to watch my back be very careful with such neighbours.

By turn 135 I had the first two missile boats, killed the dragon and colonised my first good planet. Scouting from there revealed another jewel:
ab02d.jpg


Having a few ships and disliking Humans in general, I decided to go on conquest and incorporate the Humans into my empire. They make good researchers and have at least two ultra-rich planets, even though medium-sized and high-G.

It's turn 175 now and the situation looks like this:
Spoiler :
17501q.jpg

17502.jpg

I took the first Human world effortless. But although I've researched Neuroscanners and telepathic training and have at least 5 defensive agents, the Coids stole Zort-armour from me, which in turn got to the humans. In matters of their ships, this is not a problem, but in matters of invading their planets this is just exhausting. I need loads of troop transporters now because of my -ground combat. Additionally, I'm going to get rid of the space crystal and colonise this planet.
I've almost completed researching EMG, fast missile racks are only a step away and then there's terraforming, so that I can start using my (and the Human's) planets' potential and close the pop-gap to other empires like the Coids or the Meklars.

Quite boring so far and I have the feeling that I'm quite slow, too. But there were no problems so far, so I guess, I'm doing fine.

_n0cx
 
Wonder why the AI races have so few picks? I often see them at least 6 extra picks.

Spies are broken imo in this game. I have had games where I was creative and took all planets, except one. It was 1 to 2 pop and keep around while I filled all the planets for a test. I had the max spies on defense (62 or 64 can't remember). Anyway they still managed to get steals and they were not good at spy techs either.
 
afterog.jpg

Things are developing quite well. The Humans are long past, it has been an easy conquest as I had guesses. I'm developing and terraforming their planets and have colonised every single planet in Sol. A few turns ago, I have taken Orion. Bad luck with the tech, the usual Death rays, particle beams, quantum detonators and spatial compressors... *sigh* No X-armour and no Damperfields. Dang!
Anyway, I am starting full scale war on the Coids. While the Avenger will plow through their systems, I'm building transports en masse and will reinforce my fleets in max. 10 turns with another 3 missile-loaded battleships. If I can get the Coids, it's game over and an easy win. But I keep an eye on my Meklar-borderline, just to be sure... spy-def is still going well, I try to keep defensive spies at least at a dozen, which had worked really well so far.

edit:
taking Orion with 2 BBs 6 CCs stuffes with Mercs is really a good tip; simple point-and-shoot is very relaxing and my only casualties were a single cruiser

_n0cx
 
And another victory! Yay! :cool:

Full-scale invasion on the Coids worked pretty well and their glorious master-race made good working bees and all my important colonies really biiiiig (<3 subterranean!). Although I experencied some problems with their colonies quickly 'revolting' and turning back Coid - I'm not quite sure, but what can be done to prevent this? Does maxing out my own marines on the planet help? Or has it just something to do with fleet-size in orbit?
Anyway, smashing through the Coid was very easy, two missilie cruisers or a single missile battleship were more than enough for a starbase or a starbase plus some small ships. Later on I started another front and started taking Meklar-Planets as well. Before the vote came up, the Coids were gone, Meklars and Alkari almost and my main-fleet (consisting of my old missile battleships, two beam-titans, the Avenger, and three more titans in production) was moving to the periphery of the Psilons' empire.

galacticcouncilmoo2.jpg


And, here's my highscore:
halloffamev.jpg


I'm still amazed, how easy this was. Apparently, I haven't been that slow and taking the humans quite early has been a good decision, thus giving my empire a quick growth end enabling me to concentrate on the Coids without lowering my RP-output seriously, if lowered at all. I learned from my first game and invested early on in spy-techs and my spy-defense, which was necessary; at one point (shortly after taking Orion IIRC) the AIs had about 40 spies active. But they hardly stole anything, merely the Psilons were lucky and got Death rays from me. Not that they were of too much use for them... :D

_n0cx
 
If your race does not assimilate very fast and the planet is large, I will drop extra marines on the next turn. First thing is to rush the barrack, FIRST. Then you can unload one transport on the planet to beef them up.

Next comes the AFC or whatever it is that controls aliens. If you have armored barrack that is third, unless I know there will be no revolts. By this time I can remove my main fleet, unless I am not certain of a fleet attacking.

Then I will wait till I get up a warp interdictor to leave. I have never had a planet with a marine and armor barracks revolt. Even large Sakkra planets.
 
If your race does not assimilate very fast and the planet is large, I will drop extra marines on the next turn. First thing is to rush the barrack, FIRST. Then you can unload one transport on the planet to beef them up.

Next comes the AFC or whatever it is that controls aliens. If you have armored barrack that is third, unless I know there will be no revolts. By this time I can remove my main fleet, unless I am not certain of a fleet attacking.
After experiencing these problems, I switched to building barracks first, but anyhow the damn Coids still revolted frmo time to time (although dropping up to 10+ marines made it happen almost happen never again).

Then I will wait till I get up a warp interdictor to leave. I have never had a planet with a marine and armor barracks revolt. Even large Sakkra planets.
Yeah, quickly building warp interdictor is very nice to keep conquering without leaving too much fleet behind to defend. :)

Next game will be tomorrow or the day after tomorrow... I want to see if I was lucky or if I got used to the gameplay with this race!

_n0cx
 
A really large pop with a second transport drop and then an armor barracks will be safe, by the time you leave. I would expect that you send or leave a few ships in orbit (2-4). That many troops and battledroid/tanks cannot be over thrown.

No armor barracks, more ships need to stay till some pop are assimilated. Lately I just glass most planets and move on. Keep one now and then to allow more transports to join the fleet.

Always make sure that your combat bonus leader is in the fleet.
 
Your race here, while not the specific definition of DemoLith which was defined as having Artifacts HW rather than LRHW is still a great and more balanced race. We can call it more accurately DemoLith LRHW.

Lets compare what you can do at the start with the uber-race vs some others starting with Litho races.

First of all, there's the basic LithoTol (ie Coid) which can have either or any combo of 8 guys producing or teching. They can produce either 24 RP/t or 24 PP/t.

DemoLith LRHW can produce 40 PP/t which after pollution is reduces to the same 24 PP/t as Coid. However, it can clearly out research Coid with 36 RP/t possible.

UniLith LRHW will also outperform Coid. You can get the same 24 RP/t but with each worker now providing 7.5 PP/t you get 60 PP/t which pollution reduces to 34 PP/t. It may seem to be a waste to combine Uni with Litho as the farming bonus is wasted until you conquer farming races but this is an extremely strong race.

Alternately, UniLith can choose Prod+1 LHW and generate 48 PP/t reduced to 28 after pollution. You start will be a tad slower than with LRHW but your new colonies will develop faster due to Prod+1.

Now lets compare to UniTol Prod+1 LHW. This race needs 3 farmers so only 5 guys can build or tech. You can get 30 PP/t (no pollution as Tol) or 15 RP/t. Also very strong is UniTol LRHW which generates a huge 38 PP/t or also 15 RP/t. This is superb for a fast start, although new colonies develop a bit quicker with Prod+1.

Perhaps my favorite production race is UniAqua Prod+2 LRHW. This generates 63 PP/t which reduces to 35 after pollution. It also can generate 18 RP/t. It needs only two early farmers since Aquatic helps farming by +1 on good planets. Any of these high production races that pollute can become super strong once they get some pollution control.

The best pure tech race is the standard DemoLithArti which produces a huge 60 RP/t but only 24 PP/t which pollution reduces to 15 PP/t.

As has been tested by those before me who wanted to master this great game, high production races are usually better off building their colony bases instantly and then beginning research. DemoLithArti is a bit better off getting labs and factories and then building the CB's as it takes some time to build CB's starting with only 15 usable PP/t.

My next post will compare starting methods for your custom DemoLith LRHW race.
 
It is definetly worth pointing, as you did, that high production races should do CB first thing at max PP. That is of course, if you have planets to colonize in your system. I suspect many players do not use that tactic and go with some research.
 
OK lets compare starting methods for this fun race.

I spawned with a system with just one planet to colonize and that was a pop 4 normal (abundant planet). This colony's workers can produce 3 PP/t and I can have two workers there before pollution makes any more wasteful.

I didn't sell the SB as many players wouldn't and it may not be correct with this race and only 1 CB to build. I also didn't hire any leaders during this 40 turn test since when I reload the game to test other starting methods, sometimes those leaders don't appear so I can't make a valid comparison.

I was able to finish my colony ship on turn 40 with both methods of starting, how by building CB first and buying when I was able to after 6 turns I had almost 2 million (2 citizens in this game) more pop and more money and was 20 RP ahead of the method where you get labs and factories and then build CB. I could have bought the CS a couple turns earlier with the CB first method but in both methods I let it complete naturally.

So, yes as I expected this race should be started like a production race.

I put the worker on housing on the new colony and it increase pop growth from 38k/t to 83k/t. Once I had something to build (initially labs) I stopped housing there and transferred over a 2nd worker. The factory on the colony was also soon built, and then I could go back to pop-1 housing over there and transfer the newborns back to the HW. Pop-1 housing with a factory to boost PP is great and this is why this method has more population and also more money (pop pays taxes and demo gets extra tax income) than waiting to colonize my system.

A few words about research in MOO2. The way research works is that once you research the baseline needed you gradually increase your chances to get the tech until you've done double the baseline needed which guarantees the tech.

So lets see how this works once you're ready to start researching with this specific race. Electronic Computers (pre-req for labs) requires 50 RP to have a chance to get it. It will also take 60 pp to build the lab. Ideally I'd like to have 30 PP saved up at just the time when I complete the lab tech. Then I can buy it efficiently is it is half built and I spend 60 BC for the remaining 30 PP.

OK so when I start to research the computer I put one guy on production and can have him work towards making a spy and thx to RHW I am generating 5 PP/t. The other 7 guys research and rounding usually rounds up so they give me 32 RP/t. On the 2nd turn I have 14 of the needed excess 50 RP so I am 28% to get the tech. On the 3rd turn I am 92% to get it and in my trials I never missed.

I now have 15 PP banked and can start lab research. Once I am 3 or 4 (if I want to gamble a bit) turns from completing the tech, I move one guy back to production. Hopefully I get the lab tech just as 30 PP have been banked and then switch production and buy the lab with all guys now researching hulls on the way to factories.
If I have only 25 PP I can leave the guy on production for a turn and then buy it half built.

Once I become some percentage to get reinforced hulls, again I move a guy to production and bank 5 PP/t and continue as before towards factories.

For those not into heavy micro.. (well this is the Civ Fanatics site and if you want to be good at Civ 5 you have to micro).. just do all your research with one guy banking PP and the rest teching and buy these early buildings as soon as the tech finishes.

Research overflow is lost in this game so as you continue try to not have overflow unless you absolutely have no choice and must have this tech now.

ie... lets say later on I am generating 208 RP/t. I haven't yet researched Space Academies or Fusion Rifle which cost 150 RP. My excess 58 is 32% of the needed excess 150 so I will be 32% to get it the first turn. If I don't get it then, I'll be wasting 116 RP unless I move a bunch of guys off research or switch to another tech like Aug Engines which costs 250. On the second turn I've generated 416 RP and will be a good favorite to get Aug Engines.

Never forget that you can switch production and research and not lose what was accumulated in this game. Production overflow is not wasted but research overflow is. Give yourself a chance to get lucky and gets techs with less than the guaranteed needed RP.

.. neilkaz ..
 
Last night I rolled a decent starting position with this race and settings and had a stunning amount of UR HG planets in systems near me. All these HG worlds usually means that Bulrathi is nearby. The Bears were in the game, but a good distance away.

Anyhow, my own systems's lone new planet was UR HG and colonized instantly. A nearby system that was colonized quickly had two UR HG Barren planets! Obviously, once I had some basic techs done and supercomputers I went for Gravity Generator.

I quickly became a monster and was able to pump out MIRV Nuke ships and transports. Both Gnols and Psilon (that spying brat as he has a bonus +10 spies) were eliminated around turn 150 and Coids were gone about a dozen turns later as now I had Zort armor and was cranking out MIRV Merc BB's. Of course I took time to colonize new systems safely in the areas I controlled and to take new monster systems as well.

Anyhow, I almost won in the GC on turn 191 and the vote never came up again as I continued to romp, winning on turn 222 having conquered any and all enemy planets with transports and having colonized almost every system. Note that the GC vote won't happen if there's only 1 enemy race still alive.

Anyhow, this race is really OP.

nOcx, as you're learning to play very well, I suggest that for your next game you try using Silicoids.

For me, it is time for some Darlok suffering. This is the only standard race that I've had major problems winning with. But this time I'll play in huge galaxies, giving me more time to develop a bit. However, I will also remember to do something that I've neglected to do (never realized) and that is turn ship initiative on. This may adversely affect my missile attack plans.

I'll post a new Darlok thread as the game(s) progress.
 
n0cx

A custom race you might find fun to use on impossible is this:

Repulsive -6pts
Feudal -4pts

Lithovore 10pts
Research +6 6pts
Industry +3 3pts
Large home world 1pt

The extra research will cancel out the feudalism research penalty. With the feudalisn ship build discount and the industry bonus, you should have good research, medium high industry and cheap ships. If you can accept a slight reduction in research, you could opt for +1 farming instead, dropping the large home world.
 
Wow, that's some input! :bowdown:

neilkaz, thank you very much for your comparison on the different Litho races and thank you especially for the thoughts on starting with my race! Research overflow is something I haven't thought about yet and I will keep an eye on that. (Yay, even more Micro! ^^)

I haven't started a new game so far anyway, so I think I'm going to follow neilkaz' advice and play Coids. Then there should be time to have a test-game with the race scratchthepitch suggested, although I'm uncertain, if I can play aggressively enough to really use the benefits of feudal. Well, let's find out!

_n0cx
 
n0cx, I look forward to seeing your upcoming game with the Coids. You'll find them easy to play with no farmers needed and with no pollution. Since there's no pollution you don't get crippling pollution issue as your planets grow.

Your main issue will be slow growth and by building housing you can over come that easily. Cloners can be added later.

I'd build all my CB ASAP and try to buy them when half built and set the lone new colonists on housing until it is time to build labs and factories. You may not want to sell the SB instantly, but I'd find that hard to resist if I started near the edge or corner and had two or more good new planets to colonize.

If I have time, I may play around a bit with Coid starts and post some more advise here.

You won't need to micro so much to bank PP as you can always move guys over to build and not lose to pollution, but don't waste RP due to overflow.

As they're Tolerant, my Chem research path would be Trit Armor (in case of early war), then Mercs, then Irridium cells (nice 9 range for Huge), followed by Zort armor.
Since you'd already have Trit armor, you may want to get Microlite construction instead of Zort, but then the Guardian will kill a BB or two when you attack it and some monsters can kill a lone BB. One can always get Microlite construction and then N-armor, but 4500 RP is a lot to spend quickly in addition to those other chem techs.
 
The upcoming Coid game has to wait a little bit... I'm too busy with other things that are more important and cut my spare-time. But I'll post my experiences as soon as I manage to take some gaming-time!

_n0cx
 
The upcoming Coid game has to wait a little bit... I'm too busy with other things that are more important and cut my spare-time. But I'll post my experiences as soon as I manage to take some gaming-time!
_n0cx

I'll be away much of the time until March so I won't be playing too much. However, I should find some time to test and hopefully optimize the Coid start up and will make a new thread here if I do.

I'm curious as to the economic benifits of selling the SB instantly with Coid. Of course you have to rebuild it. I'll compare starts with 2 and 3 colonies.
 
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