Moonraker
- Thread starter Cam_H
- Start date
woopdeedoo
King
Build that army! Just keep in mind, wrt defenders, we have almost none so a handful of archers (I'd say 2 per city) would also be a good idea imo.
woopdeedoo
King
Defenders? What are 'these "Defenders"' you talk about???
HA! I've learned the hard way that it's a good idea to have a couple of those "defendy" peoples, even in safe back end cities. Sneaky-sneaky AI sneaking behind your back and grabbing poorly defended cities that are thought safe... Yes, it has happened... and I was saddened...
I have done some MM on the 0t, then played 3 turns (3rd not completed).
Recap of major events:
Shifts in worker's activities as discussed.
Army moved to Jaws (two more turns needed to get all units - as of now - on the stack tile by the Jaws).
Some more whipping, mainly for ctas.
Recon: Shanghai: 1 Arch+2Axes+1 Axe on the Copper mine by the town; Xian: 1 Axe+ 1 Spear; Guangzhou: 1 Spear+1 Archer; Beijing: 2 Spears+5Swords+3Archers (almost all units promoted, all Archers heavily promoted on city garrison). Only Beijing with walls.
Traded 1 fish for 1 wine with Mao
Research switched to Alpha on min +
Last turn Maogot Alpha and might trade Alpha or Calendar for our Currency.
Bismarck has HAs.
I put to discussion the following:
1. Trade Currency to Mao, if we get Alph and $, this might keep his research at the current level for the next 6-7 turns (off cash, on additional trade routes), we can trade Currency for IW and, hopefully, Archery and $ to Bismarck, and then for something more to Elizabeth (Alpha in from Mao). Judging from GDP graph, she might well have something to offer (Calendar?, we could use a spice soon enough). Q1: Do we trade? Q2: If yes, do we trade now, or after two-three more turns, on the eve of invasion into China? I am for the in for later trade (risking some value, but playing it solid on not giving Mao additional money to go for Feudalism).
3. What route our army will go? Shanghai, then Beijing, then Guangzhou? Or fork Shanghai and Guangzhou, then stack before Beijing? Or fork then peace w/o Beijing?Other ideas?
I am in for Shanghai->Beijing->Guangzhou, mop the city to the North of Guangzhou, go South and raze Xian, get peace. Splitting might make the army vulnerable to the stack in Beijing (min 7 phants in each stack needed to make it impregnable to counterattacks, I guess)
Please, let's try to reach some agreement by tomorrow evening when I plan to finish my turnset. I could wait some longer, too, of course, nothing urgent on my calendar right now, although the weekend looks quite busy: helping my brother-in-law do some wallpapering plus elections on Sunday plus some rest needed....
Below is the save and a few snapshots for your convenience and for lurkers' delight...
Recap of major events:
Shifts in worker's activities as discussed.
Army moved to Jaws (two more turns needed to get all units - as of now - on the stack tile by the Jaws).
Some more whipping, mainly for ctas.
Recon: Shanghai: 1 Arch+2Axes+1 Axe on the Copper mine by the town; Xian: 1 Axe+ 1 Spear; Guangzhou: 1 Spear+1 Archer; Beijing: 2 Spears+5Swords+3Archers (almost all units promoted, all Archers heavily promoted on city garrison). Only Beijing with walls.
Traded 1 fish for 1 wine with Mao
Research switched to Alpha on min +
Last turn Maogot Alpha and might trade Alpha or Calendar for our Currency.
Bismarck has HAs.
I put to discussion the following:
1. Trade Currency to Mao, if we get Alph and $, this might keep his research at the current level for the next 6-7 turns (off cash, on additional trade routes), we can trade Currency for IW and, hopefully, Archery and $ to Bismarck, and then for something more to Elizabeth (Alpha in from Mao). Judging from GDP graph, she might well have something to offer (Calendar?, we could use a spice soon enough). Q1: Do we trade? Q2: If yes, do we trade now, or after two-three more turns, on the eve of invasion into China? I am for the in for later trade (risking some value, but playing it solid on not giving Mao additional money to go for Feudalism).
3. What route our army will go? Shanghai, then Beijing, then Guangzhou? Or fork Shanghai and Guangzhou, then stack before Beijing? Or fork then peace w/o Beijing?Other ideas?
I am in for Shanghai->Beijing->Guangzhou, mop the city to the North of Guangzhou, go South and raze Xian, get peace. Splitting might make the army vulnerable to the stack in Beijing (min 7 phants in each stack needed to make it impregnable to counterattacks, I guess)
Please, let's try to reach some agreement by tomorrow evening when I plan to finish my turnset. I could wait some longer, too, of course, nothing urgent on my calendar right now, although the weekend looks quite busy: helping my brother-in-law do some wallpapering plus elections on Sunday plus some rest needed....
Below is the save and a few snapshots for your convenience and for lurkers' delight...
Attachments
FiveRings,
Good work on continuing the good work on military builds.
Question 1.
I can't get Mao Zedong to give us Alphabet without us also having to give away Construction, which is not in our interest. So I'd say "no deal". Just out of interest, Mao won't declare war on Bismark for Currency +
.
Question 3.
I was thinking 'Shanghai' > 'Beijing' > 'see where we're at'! My inclination is to clean up the south first, but I don't like seeing that Ivory tile to the north of Guangzhou that could turn into a Chinese source of War Elephants in time. Also I'm a bit unsure of what we'll run into down there, but splitting our forces into two armies would seem on the face of it to be a good move provided we still have impressive stacks / survival rates after Shanghai and Beijing are ours. Raising Xian isn't a bad idea - I usually pretty well keep everything, but Xian is only fair. If we're raising cities in south China, we'll be well served by having a dot-map and some Settlers.
Just a small point ... Stonehenge goes obsolete with Calendar on Warlords ... so I'd be in no great hurry to get Calendar, at least until we're happy with our 'first border pop' situation.
(I hope this feedback's of use).
Good work on continuing the good work on military builds.
Question 1.
I can't get Mao Zedong to give us Alphabet without us also having to give away Construction, which is not in our interest. So I'd say "no deal". Just out of interest, Mao won't declare war on Bismark for Currency +
.Question 3.
I was thinking 'Shanghai' > 'Beijing' > 'see where we're at'! My inclination is to clean up the south first, but I don't like seeing that Ivory tile to the north of Guangzhou that could turn into a Chinese source of War Elephants in time. Also I'm a bit unsure of what we'll run into down there, but splitting our forces into two armies would seem on the face of it to be a good move provided we still have impressive stacks / survival rates after Shanghai and Beijing are ours. Raising Xian isn't a bad idea - I usually pretty well keep everything, but Xian is only fair. If we're raising cities in south China, we'll be well served by having a dot-map and some Settlers.
Just a small point ... Stonehenge goes obsolete with Calendar on Warlords ... so I'd be in no great hurry to get Calendar, at least until we're happy with our 'first border pop' situation.
(I hope this feedback's of use).
Thanks, Cam, comments very much appreciated!
Tech trade: evidently, I am not very good at getting to the bottom line of AIs' trading intentions. I hesitate to aska specific trade that seems more or less fair, ie with a small increment in favor of the AI, so that I don't get it OK-ed by the AI, which would make the whole thing pre-decided. I thought that Alpha - and even some $ - could be traded for our currency, but stopped asking when I got a NO on Alpha + $150 for currency (for the above reasons). If we don't get Alpha from Mao w/o giving him construction, then it's no good trade for us, indeed. You are correct about the Calendar's negating impact: I sure have underestimated this: I haven't built a SH for ages...
The army fork question I tried to formulate referred to the start of the war, not the moment when we - hopefully - take Beijing. I can split the army into two small stacks, three moves away from attacking both Guangzhou and Shanghai, and could probably take both of them even with Chinese swords redeployed towards one of them (if they come split, they will be easy prey). This might jeopardize half our army, but could make the assault on Beijing easier. Anyway, the risks of getting the army crippled seem too high. And I seem to get from your message that going Shanghai-Beijing is your favorite route, isn't it?
The idea of razing South China was based on the assumption that we keep min the three big Chinese cities. Anything beyond seemed to me a big drag on the economy when we have some nicer places to settle closer to our core. I need to look at the issue again, although it would be a decision to reach during your TS, I guess.
BTW, there seems to be one more Chinese city that I can't locate yet (it's clear that Mao'd settled to the North of Guangzhou, but there should be one more city).
I have checked about enciting war between Mao and the rest, just forgot to mention it, thanks for checking it yourself, and sorry for the omission!
Tech trade: evidently, I am not very good at getting to the bottom line of AIs' trading intentions. I hesitate to aska specific trade that seems more or less fair, ie with a small increment in favor of the AI, so that I don't get it OK-ed by the AI, which would make the whole thing pre-decided. I thought that Alpha - and even some $ - could be traded for our currency, but stopped asking when I got a NO on Alpha + $150 for currency (for the above reasons). If we don't get Alpha from Mao w/o giving him construction, then it's no good trade for us, indeed. You are correct about the Calendar's negating impact: I sure have underestimated this: I haven't built a SH for ages...
The army fork question I tried to formulate referred to the start of the war, not the moment when we - hopefully - take Beijing. I can split the army into two small stacks, three moves away from attacking both Guangzhou and Shanghai, and could probably take both of them even with Chinese swords redeployed towards one of them (if they come split, they will be easy prey). This might jeopardize half our army, but could make the assault on Beijing easier. Anyway, the risks of getting the army crippled seem too high. And I seem to get from your message that going Shanghai-Beijing is your favorite route, isn't it?
The idea of razing South China was based on the assumption that we keep min the three big Chinese cities. Anything beyond seemed to me a big drag on the economy when we have some nicer places to settle closer to our core. I need to look at the issue again, although it would be a decision to reach during your TS, I guess.
BTW, there seems to be one more Chinese city that I can't locate yet (it's clear that Mao'd settled to the North of Guangzhou, but there should be one more city).
I have checked about enciting war between Mao and the rest, just forgot to mention it, thanks for checking it yourself, and sorry for the omission!
woopdeedoo
King
I agree with Cam on the route our war should take. Consider the spears in MZ's cap. We have loads (7 
) of warriors, maybe switch off tech and get 3 or so of them with our stack and upgrade to axes to counter said spears? That final Northern city looks tasty too. But yeah, let's go the route Shangai>Beijing and see where we stand...
Edit: Also, if we had some defenders in place *cough, cough*, I would have considered going to cap first with army at full strength and cutting backwards to Shangai. The AI will reinforce their cap like crazy while you attack outlying cities...
Edit 2 : Also, archers are cheap. While we are at war, sending some of those to the cities under seige (to occupy once captured) will free up our attacking forces to continue to the next target(s)... So if possible, consider it
) of warriors, maybe switch off tech and get 3 or so of them with our stack and upgrade to axes to counter said spears? That final Northern city looks tasty too. But yeah, let's go the route Shangai>Beijing and see where we stand...Edit: Also, if we had some defenders in place *cough, cough*, I would have considered going to cap first with army at full strength and cutting backwards to Shangai. The AI will reinforce their cap like crazy while you attack outlying cities...
Edit 2 : Also, archers are cheap. While we are at war, sending some of those to the cities under seige (to occupy once captured) will free up our attacking forces to continue to the next target(s)... So if possible, consider it
I agree with Cam on the route our war should take. Consider the spears in MZ's cap. We have loads (7
Edit: Also, if we had some defenders in place *cough, cough*, I would have considered going to cap first with army at full strength and cutting backwards to Shangai. The AI will reinforce their cap like crazy while you attack outlying cities...
Edit 2 : Also, archers are cheap. While we are at war, sending some of those to the cities under seige (to occupy once captured) will free up our attacking forces to continue to the next target(s)... So if possible, consider it
Maybe I would have considered building some archers if we had researched Archery...
I have a different take on a route directly to Beijing: going across all China will be longer than getting Shanghai first, I think, or not significantly faster. No surprise attack on Beijing without transports...
We might need upgrade warriors, but I'd rather not do that willingly at this point. As already discussed in the previous SG, gold is better spent elsewhere in the early stages of the game.
I guess we are unanimous on both questions I have raised. I'll proceed accordingly this evening.
Sorry guys, I have messed up things ...quite a bit...
I have made two mistakes: one major, one quite significant.
The major one is that I joined the GrPr we have got. I should have kept it for the srine, of course. Realized it the moment I pushed the button... In the mid-term it doesn't matter taht much, as we were chalking the 5 gpt all the time while Shanghai was Chinese, and under revolt, but in a dozen turns the income from the shrine will tip the balance... Sorry, once again!
The lesser one was that I moved forward leaving only one phant in Shanghai, so Mao retook it. I have taken it again the next turn with no big losses wiping out ffour swords - plus the one that perished while retaking the city - and using troops that were from the second stack, so, the balance here is very fine as this allowed me to move faster with the main stack towards Beijing, but anyway, I should have moved the stach one tile a turn, as I usually do.
On the bright side: we own both Shanghai and Beijing and still have some 30 state-of-art units, including a Medic III that also heals while moving. The main stack is one turn from Guangzhou and even if we wait for some back up to join it, Guangzhou is to fall very, very soon.
I also started to look with some lust at the Northern Chinese cities, especially after Bismarck settled Dortmund under our belly on the previous turn - I think we might better deal with him right after we finish Mao., especially if we get the HBR - with some change - from Churchill for our Currency and Construction. I know this is two for one, but both Mao and Bismarck have both Currency and Construction, so I think it might be a reasonable use. I don't like very much giving Construction to Churchill as both he and Bismarck are of the same religion, but then, we can switch to their religion to avoid facing them both at one and the same time (this will also, admitteddly, sweeten my GrPr mistake so I might be quite biased in my reasoning.
Talking of trades, I'd also get 4gpt for a fish from Bismarck.
We have quite a stash of gold - but huge maintenance as well - from $142+3 from Shanghai and $216 from Beijing.
I have held the whip somewhat the last several turns, but continued building war units as I wasn't quite sure of the outcome of the battle for Beijing, on the one hand, while on the other I noticed that Mao redeployed some units South and North, so a unit or two can be whipped if a small stack of his appears on our territory.
I can't rmember now whether Mao has gotten HBR, that's a must-check, although I haven't noticed - or have misse horses that he can use, and I don't want to get off the Forum to check for these, as it is quite late already.
BTW, HG was bfal.
That's about it.
I was inclined to use Northern China as a buffer land between us and Bis, but Dortmund made me change my mind.
I am tempted to try to conquer Germany after conquering Northern China - keeping the Nortwestern Chinese city as well as the three main ones and settling for peace with Mao. Alternatively, we can raze South China and only then attack Bismarck.
I'd keep the research rate at or close to 0, if we go that way, but am not quite sure whether we would be able to manage the maintenance costs anyway. I would also consider getting HBR as an essential prerequisite to war with Bis, although we might be able to get without it too as the front line shouldn't be that long.
Below are the save and a couple of screenshots, or rather thumbs thereof
I have made two mistakes: one major, one quite significant.
The major one is that I joined the GrPr we have got. I should have kept it for the srine, of course. Realized it the moment I pushed the button... In the mid-term it doesn't matter taht much, as we were chalking the 5 gpt all the time while Shanghai was Chinese, and under revolt, but in a dozen turns the income from the shrine will tip the balance... Sorry, once again!
The lesser one was that I moved forward leaving only one phant in Shanghai, so Mao retook it. I have taken it again the next turn with no big losses wiping out ffour swords - plus the one that perished while retaking the city - and using troops that were from the second stack, so, the balance here is very fine as this allowed me to move faster with the main stack towards Beijing, but anyway, I should have moved the stach one tile a turn, as I usually do.
On the bright side: we own both Shanghai and Beijing and still have some 30 state-of-art units, including a Medic III that also heals while moving. The main stack is one turn from Guangzhou and even if we wait for some back up to join it, Guangzhou is to fall very, very soon.
I also started to look with some lust at the Northern Chinese cities, especially after Bismarck settled Dortmund under our belly on the previous turn - I think we might better deal with him right after we finish Mao., especially if we get the HBR - with some change - from Churchill for our Currency and Construction. I know this is two for one, but both Mao and Bismarck have both Currency and Construction, so I think it might be a reasonable use. I don't like very much giving Construction to Churchill as both he and Bismarck are of the same religion, but then, we can switch to their religion to avoid facing them both at one and the same time (this will also, admitteddly, sweeten my GrPr mistake so I might be quite biased in my reasoning.
Talking of trades, I'd also get 4gpt for a fish from Bismarck.
We have quite a stash of gold - but huge maintenance as well - from $142+3 from Shanghai and $216 from Beijing.
I have held the whip somewhat the last several turns, but continued building war units as I wasn't quite sure of the outcome of the battle for Beijing, on the one hand, while on the other I noticed that Mao redeployed some units South and North, so a unit or two can be whipped if a small stack of his appears on our territory.
I can't rmember now whether Mao has gotten HBR, that's a must-check, although I haven't noticed - or have misse horses that he can use, and I don't want to get off the Forum to check for these, as it is quite late already.
BTW, HG was bfal.
That's about it.
I was inclined to use Northern China as a buffer land between us and Bis, but Dortmund made me change my mind.
I am tempted to try to conquer Germany after conquering Northern China - keeping the Nortwestern Chinese city as well as the three main ones and settling for peace with Mao. Alternatively, we can raze South China and only then attack Bismarck.
I'd keep the research rate at or close to 0, if we go that way, but am not quite sure whether we would be able to manage the maintenance costs anyway. I would also consider getting HBR as an essential prerequisite to war with Bis, although we might be able to get without it too as the front line shouldn't be that long.
Below are the save and a couple of screenshots, or rather thumbs thereof
Attachments
FiveRings,
Thanks for the turnset and your analysis.
When I first read this I thought; "Oh shiii ... what the what's happened!!! ..."
My main concern was that we'd lose a dozen+ units in taking Shanghai and Beijing (I see the loss count was only five), and that we'd be hitting large garrisons of Longbows. Not to be!
No problem on your "errors" ... 'yes' - The Temple of Solomon would have been preferable, but merging the Prophet into our capital is no 'hanging offence'. Temporarily losing Shanghai and then re-taking it is fine too ... if only we had some defenders ...
Great to have a Super-Medic at our disposal. I often put Morale on Chariot Super-Medics, so they can move with stacks of 2
units and heal them on the same turn, but given that our invasion force is composed of 1 units, I guess that last promo' (March) is not terribly relevant for now.
Stupid Bismark and stupid Dortmund! Thankfully they fixed up this AI behaviour of settling insane culturally-pressured spots a lot in BtS. It's actually a bit of a 'reminder' that we should probably keep what we capture (for fear of holes getting taken by 'third party' AIs), and get on with founding "White" at some stage too, which will also 'tick off' our Goldfinger variant.
Personally I'm not sure why we need Horseback Riding in any great hurry, and don't really see it "as an essential prerequisite to war with Bis"?
Anyway, provided you do want Horseback Riding, I'd consider this;
We could pay more to get Meditation in the deal, but (a.) we can self-research Meditation in one turn for less cost, and (b.) WFYABTA count would creep up. Polytheism I'd take due to Literature pre-requisite, and Iron Working to reveal the Iron deposits.
PPP:
Well, looks as though China will soon be ours if we want it ... I say 'yes' ... and I would kill him off totally. If we can get by without fighting Chinese culture and "Motherland" issues, and living with a generally grumpy AI leader, while taking some fairly juicy cities, I'd say why not take it all?
I guess 4 or 5 Catapults and 4 or 5 War Elephants will more than suffice to clear up the southern cities; Xian and Hangzhou plus the Barbarian city of Kassite (probably raze if the tiles in fog-of-war don't reveal more seafood), and the rest can easily sweep the north.
I am now mindful of the burgeoning city maintenance that will soon confront us. Beijing is a commerce monster, so I'm not panicking over maintenance as this city should be able to 'carry the cost' of several cities, but I'm mindful that Currency and a few Cottages alone probably won't quite get us through.
This leaves FiveRings's point on 'What to do about Germany?' open, and I guess I can see us taking several pathways after we take China; and +1
(+5 in Shanghai) in cities with Judaism.
I'd kill off China and keep all of the cities. Settle "White" (at least) in out south west. Go for Literature, Code of Laws, and Monotheism. Stack army in northern cities for potential strike at Germany.
Thoughts?
Thanks for the turnset and your analysis.
When I first read this I thought; "Oh shiii ... what the what's happened!!! ..."
My main concern was that we'd lose a dozen+ units in taking Shanghai and Beijing (I see the loss count was only five), and that we'd be hitting large garrisons of Longbows. Not to be!
No problem on your "errors" ... 'yes' - The Temple of Solomon would have been preferable, but merging the Prophet into our capital is no 'hanging offence'. Temporarily losing Shanghai and then re-taking it is fine too ... if only we had some defenders ...
Great to have a Super-Medic at our disposal. I often put Morale on Chariot Super-Medics, so they can move with stacks of 2
units and heal them on the same turn, but given that our invasion force is composed of 1 units, I guess that last promo' (March) is not terribly relevant for now.Stupid Bismark and stupid Dortmund! Thankfully they fixed up this AI behaviour of settling insane culturally-pressured spots a lot in BtS. It's actually a bit of a 'reminder' that we should probably keep what we capture (for fear of holes getting taken by 'third party' AIs), and get on with founding "White" at some stage too, which will also 'tick off' our Goldfinger variant.
Personally I'm not sure why we need Horseback Riding in any great hurry, and don't really see it "as an essential prerequisite to war with Bis"?
Anyway, provided you do want Horseback Riding, I'd consider this;
We could pay more
to get Meditation in the deal, but (a.) we can self-research Meditation in one turn for less cost, and (b.) WFYABTA count would creep up. Polytheism I'd take due to Literature pre-requisite, and Iron Working to reveal the Iron deposits.PPP:
Well, looks as though China will soon be ours if we want it ... I say 'yes' ... and I would kill him off totally. If we can get by without fighting Chinese culture and "Motherland" issues, and living with a generally grumpy AI leader, while taking some fairly juicy cities, I'd say why not take it all?
I guess 4 or 5 Catapults and 4 or 5 War Elephants will more than suffice to clear up the southern cities; Xian and Hangzhou plus the Barbarian city of Kassite (probably raze if the tiles in fog-of-war don't reveal more seafood), and the rest can easily sweep the north.
I am now mindful of the burgeoning city maintenance that will soon confront us. Beijing is a commerce monster, so I'm not panicking over maintenance as this city should be able to 'carry the cost' of several cities, but I'm mindful that Currency and a few Cottages alone probably won't quite get us through.
This leaves FiveRings's point on 'What to do about Germany?' open, and I guess I can see us taking several pathways after we take China;
- Just bunker down, get our economy and science in decent shape, and try to get to Astronomy in a fairly good time so we can become the established tech' leader for the remainder of the game.
- Regroup and rebuild for maybe 15-20 turns where we get the elements of our economy in shape (i.e. access to Courthouses), and then take on Germany - possibly crippling him, which would leave two AI's on our continent and allow us some ongoing trade opportunities when the war with Bismark is done (that is, rather than just ourselves and Churchill who will be reluctant to trade by the simple fact that there's only the two of us).
- Regroup and rebuild, with an eye to Feudalism so we can make Germany and possibly England our vassals. Cat's and War Elephants should still be able to do the job.
- Go for broke and try to take the whole damn continent! Deal with the economy and science when the dust settles.
and +1 (+5 in Shanghai) in cities with Judaism.I'd kill off China and keep all of the cities. Settle "White" (at least) in out south west. Go for Literature, Code of Laws, and Monotheism. Stack army in northern cities for potential strike at Germany.
Thoughts?
Well, thank you for your being not very harsh on me, Cam! Actually, I'd prefer Solomon's mines, but missing the Temple still makes me grieve...
BTW, I forgot to mention it that I extorted Alpha and $190 from Mao before I attacked him. I hope this won't turn out to be another mistake done. AIs have done this to me, but, as it is well known, what is allowed to Jupiter is not allowed to the bull...
I think we are losing quite a lot of gpt due to our big army, so crippling Bismarck after wiping out Mao will be my preference. I would rather do it right away, if we have enough army left. A nice turn of the Southern Army towards Dortmund while the Northern Army marches on nach Norden...with some back up to come from what we are still building... There might be still some 20 units at our disposal when we finish Mao... BTW, by that time Beijing should have gone out of revolt and the situation around maintenance might have cleared up.
We might also move the Capital to the Jaws or to Guangzhou once we take it and before we get CS and Buro, especially if we go taking all the South of the continent. I still don't see much rationale in keeping all Chinese cities, though. It seems to me that we can be somewhat picky. I'd support it if we decide to go into peaceful development after mopping out Mao, but otherwise would keep the juicy parts only. Besides, we seem to get not that well developed cities after conquering them: nada in Shanghai, grannary only in Beijing. I don't know whether this is related to catting the defenses to 0. Might be helpful to learn if there is some connection. I seem to remember from the old CIV times that this was related to the number of attacks on the city, could it be that there is something like this working in CIV 4, too?
I agree with your take on religious matters.
I don't insist on the trade with Churchill, I was putting this on the table for consideration and mainly in conjunction with Bismarck's HAs who make me somewhat nervous and craving after some of our own, esp with a view to a coming war.
Thanks to the tip on the morale promotion. Haven't thought bout it. I have been using the leadership several times as mopping out last defenders drives up the strength of the chariot quite fast, and then it can be upgraded without cost to both a formidable attacker and healer.
BTW, I forgot to mention it that I extorted Alpha and $190 from Mao before I attacked him. I hope this won't turn out to be another mistake done. AIs have done this to me, but, as it is well known, what is allowed to Jupiter is not allowed to the bull...
I think we are losing quite a lot of gpt due to our big army, so crippling Bismarck after wiping out Mao will be my preference. I would rather do it right away, if we have enough army left. A nice turn of the Southern Army towards Dortmund while the Northern Army marches on nach Norden...with some back up to come from what we are still building... There might be still some 20 units at our disposal when we finish Mao... BTW, by that time Beijing should have gone out of revolt and the situation around maintenance might have cleared up.
We might also move the Capital to the Jaws or to Guangzhou once we take it and before we get CS and Buro, especially if we go taking all the South of the continent. I still don't see much rationale in keeping all Chinese cities, though. It seems to me that we can be somewhat picky. I'd support it if we decide to go into peaceful development after mopping out Mao, but otherwise would keep the juicy parts only. Besides, we seem to get not that well developed cities after conquering them: nada in Shanghai, grannary only in Beijing. I don't know whether this is related to catting the defenses to 0. Might be helpful to learn if there is some connection. I seem to remember from the old CIV times that this was related to the number of attacks on the city, could it be that there is something like this working in CIV 4, too?
I agree with your take on religious matters.
I don't insist on the trade with Churchill, I was putting this on the table for consideration and mainly in conjunction with Bismarck's HAs who make me somewhat nervous and craving after some of our own, esp with a view to a coming war.
Thanks to the tip on the morale promotion. Haven't thought bout it. I have been using the leadership several times as mopping out last defenders drives up the strength of the chariot quite fast, and then it can be upgraded without cost to both a formidable attacker and healer.
woopdeedoo
King
HAHA!! Awesome work! In the words of Yo-landi Vi$$er: "Crush, Kill, Destroy, Gooi!!!" Love it! Really good job on getting that army up and running too. I say "yes" to wiping MZ out completely. Then, depending on our situation, start on Bismarck too. He is starting to annoy me 
I will have a look at the save and add additonal comments (if required) later.
I will have a look at the save and add additonal comments (if required) later.That'd be great.
I guess in this turnset I'd like to knock Mao out of the game, get out a Settler (or two?), and start to get our tech' back on track at least, but I'd like your views on keeping Chinese cities versus razing them...
... I don't think Xian and Hangzhou for instance are well placed, but the land is marginal anyway (just the Grasslands Cows in terms of >2
resources), so razing these cities and having to build new Settlers seems like a bit of a pain for not much reward. I'm wary that if the land's left bare for any length of time that Bismark or maybe even Churchill might want to settle it (as clearly evidenced by Dortmund).Good to get feedback on Bismark - it seems both of you would like to get stuck into Germany not long after we have dealt Mao the death blow. Berlin's presenting itself as a bit of a prize city.
Also; proceed with the proposed Churchill deal - or some other variant of a deal - or no deal at all?
woopdeedoo
King
I had a closer look the save. I would keep Nanjing and Ganzhou but get another settler out to place in between those cities, sealing the border to prevent further annoyances like Dortmund. I'd go for the tech trade. Construction is no longer a monopoly (Bismarck knows it, looks like) so we are about to lose that lead. May as well get what we can for it. The southern cities are rubbish. trash them. But again, get some settlers out. Let's get the continent under control, get the tech rate up and other awesome stuff like that
All-righty then!
I played 10 turns, and the key outcome I guess is that we have removed China from the game. Tech-wise, I made the above trade with Churchill as directed, and then we got Monotheism and Literature, and soon to get Code of Laws. Lost a few War Elephants in against-the-odds fights, but this was off-set by some Catapults that survived when their odds were tiny.
(Please excuse a couple of omissions in the report on city builds):
Opening Turn | 350AD
Make the Churchill deal: Currency + Construction + 80 <> Polytheism + Horseback Riding + Iron Working
Research up to 80%
and switch to Monotheism
Iron deposit discovered near Monte Carlo. Mao Zedong has several.
Steel Jaw Guy: Barracks
Bibracte renamed to Amsterdam.
Yikes ... no spawbusting in the south west of our landmass!?! Arrange for Chariot to go there, but it'll take a couple of turns.
ibt
Germany founds Christianity in Munich
Turn 1 | 375AD
Steel Jaw Guy : Barracks > Chariot
We take out a Chinese Catapult in the field.
Bismark goes into WHEOOHRN mode - he's Annoyed with Mao, Cautious of us, and Pleased with Churchill.
ibt
Sistine Chapel is built in a far away land.
Turn 2 | 400AD
Monotheism > Literature
Paganism > Organised Religion
Vienna: Catapult > Catapult
Geneva: War Elephant > Granary
Prague: War Elephant > Settler (resume and whip unhappy citizens)
The lack of spawnbusting does indeed bring about a Barbarian presence in the south west - just a Warrior.
Steel Jaw Guy: Chariot (interrupt) > Stables
Monte Carlo: Catapult (interrupt) > Barracks
Prague: Settler > Lighthouse
ibt
Bismark swaps into Theocracy.
Turn 3 | 425AD
The Battle of Guangzhou;
Bismark: 4/turn <> Wheat
Steel Jaw Guy: Whip Stables
Shanghai: Whip Granary
Turn 4 | 450AD
Prague: Lighthouse > Market
Shanghai: Granary > Library
Steel Jaw Guy: Stables > Chariot (resume)
Turn 5 | 475AD
Literature > Code of Laws (we have a monopoly on Literature - at least on our continent)
Steel Jaw Guy: Chariot > War Elephant
Amsterdam: War Elephant > Granary
A Chinese Archer is spotted to the north east of Geneva. The city swaps to an emergency Axeman whip.
The Battle for Xian;
Prague: Market (interrupt) > The Great Library
Vienna: Catapult (interrupt) > Settler
Monte Carlo: War Elephant (interrupt) > Heroic Epic
Science down to 70%
Turn 6 | 500AD
Geneva's hurried Axeman kills the roaming Chinese Spearman.
The Battle for Chengdu;
Turn 7 | 520AD
Bismark's still WHEOOHRN
Churchill: Crab + 5/turn <> Copper (he has Iron anyway)
Found Zurich ("White");
Turn 8 | 540AD
Shanghai: Library > Settler
Turn 9 | 560AD
The Battle for Nanjing;
We pick up a Great General (currently unused).
The Battle for Hangzhou;
Tech' back up to 90%.
With Mao gone, Bismark drops out of WHEOOHRN mode.
Turn 10 | 580AD
Beijing comes out of revolt with much unhappiness, and its Library gets whipped.
The Barbarian city of Kassite does not have any additional seafood resources in its BFC, and therefore could be razed and resettled for better tiles.
Other Screenies:
One thing we should do is get a Jewish Missionary into Prague to help it along with The Great Library (and other builds) and another would be good there too. Units are a bit all-over-the-place, but our main stack is in Chengdu, with other units dotted around here-and-there. There's a mini-stack not far from Kassite which is 'overkill' for that city, but I was cautious with how many units that I needed for Xian and Hangzhou, so we have more than needed. Note also that a Barb' Warrior has spawned on an eastern Wine tile. Three cities are building Settlers to ensure that we're capable of re-settling some of the empty lands or grabbing good remaining spots (double seafood near Prague, Cows-Wine-Fur in south east, "Purple" [I confess to being not too excited about that one], "Silver" [or something like it], or north of to-be-razed Kassite being some possibilities). I've put "Build Wealth" on a couple of the newly captured cities that came with Granaries - these to be discussed. I guess the first steps toward city specialisation have already happened, but we should just clarify what's 'commerce', '
', and 'military'.
I played 10 turns, and the key outcome I guess is that we have removed China from the game. Tech-wise, I made the above trade with Churchill as directed, and then we got Monotheism and Literature, and soon to get Code of Laws. Lost a few War Elephants in against-the-odds fights, but this was off-set by some Catapults that survived when their odds were tiny.
(Please excuse a couple of omissions in the report on city builds):
Opening Turn | 350AD
Make the Churchill deal: Currency + Construction + 80
<> Polytheism + Horseback Riding + Iron WorkingResearch up to 80%
and switch to MonotheismIron deposit discovered near Monte Carlo. Mao Zedong has several.
Steel Jaw Guy: Barracks
Bibracte renamed to Amsterdam.
Yikes ... no spawbusting in the south west of our landmass!?! Arrange for Chariot to go there, but it'll take a couple of turns.
ibt
Germany founds Christianity in Munich
Turn 1 | 375AD
Steel Jaw Guy : Barracks > Chariot
We take out a Chinese Catapult in the field.
Bismark goes into WHEOOHRN mode - he's Annoyed with Mao, Cautious of us, and Pleased with Churchill.
ibt
Sistine Chapel is built in a far away land.
Turn 2 | 400AD
Monotheism > Literature
Paganism > Organised Religion
Vienna: Catapult > Catapult
Geneva: War Elephant > Granary
Prague: War Elephant > Settler (resume and whip unhappy citizens)
The lack of spawnbusting does indeed bring about a Barbarian presence in the south west - just a Warrior.
Steel Jaw Guy: Chariot (interrupt) > Stables
Monte Carlo: Catapult (interrupt) > Barracks
Prague: Settler > Lighthouse
ibt
Bismark swaps into Theocracy.
Turn 3 | 425AD
The Battle of Guangzhou;
Spoiler :
Bismark: 4
/turn <> WheatSteel Jaw Guy: Whip Stables
Shanghai: Whip Granary
Turn 4 | 450AD
Prague: Lighthouse > Market
Shanghai: Granary > Library
Steel Jaw Guy: Stables > Chariot (resume)
Turn 5 | 475AD
Literature > Code of Laws (we have a monopoly on Literature - at least on our continent)
Steel Jaw Guy: Chariot > War Elephant
Amsterdam: War Elephant > Granary
A Chinese Archer is spotted to the north east of Geneva. The city swaps to an emergency Axeman whip.
The Battle for Xian;
Spoiler :
Prague: Market (interrupt) > The Great Library
Vienna: Catapult (interrupt) > Settler
Monte Carlo: War Elephant (interrupt) > Heroic Epic
Science down to 70%
Turn 6 | 500AD
Geneva's hurried Axeman kills the roaming Chinese Spearman.
The Battle for Chengdu;
Spoiler :
Turn 7 | 520AD
Bismark's still WHEOOHRN
Churchill: Crab + 5
/turn <> Copper (he has Iron anyway)Found Zurich ("White");
Spoiler :
Turn 8 | 540AD
Shanghai: Library > Settler
Turn 9 | 560AD
The Battle for Nanjing;
Spoiler :
We pick up a Great General (currently unused).
The Battle for Hangzhou;
Spoiler :
Tech' back up to 90%
.With Mao gone, Bismark drops out of WHEOOHRN mode.
Turn 10 | 580AD
Beijing comes out of revolt with much unhappiness, and its Library gets whipped.
The Barbarian city of Kassite does not have any additional seafood resources in its BFC, and therefore could be razed and resettled for better tiles.
Other Screenies:
Spoiler :
One thing we should do is get a Jewish Missionary into Prague to help it along with The Great Library (and other builds) and another
would be good there too. Units are a bit all-over-the-place, but our main stack is in Chengdu, with other units dotted around here-and-there. There's a mini-stack not far from Kassite which is 'overkill' for that city, but I was cautious with how many units that I needed for Xian and Hangzhou, so we have more than needed. Note also that a Barb' Warrior has spawned on an eastern Wine tile. Three cities are building Settlers to ensure that we're capable of re-settling some of the empty lands or grabbing good remaining spots (double seafood near Prague, Cows-Wine-Fur in south east, "Purple" [I confess to being not too excited about that one], "Silver" [or something like it], or north of to-be-razed Kassite being some possibilities). I've put "Build Wealth" on a couple of the newly captured cities that came with Granaries - these to be discussed. I guess the first steps toward city specialisation have already happened, but we should just clarify what's 'commerce', '', and 'military'.woopdeedoo
King
Such good work. I'm very impressed and happy. This is a "got it". Will post PPP tomorrow after having a decent look at the save.
woopdeedoo
King
So I had a look. Not quite able to dotmap now but I have a couple of ideas for cities. I think we might wanna consider keeping the barb city. I has food and copper. Could be ok eventually. What about war with Germany? We have plenty of units. Should we rebuild or shoot for the stars? Get a bunch of well developed cities up. Some courthouses once CoL is in? Peaceful expansion (after claiming the whole continent? Biz and Church have 14 cities in total between them. TBH, Im not entirely sure where to proceed here. I, for one, think we should take on the Germans and then see where we stand. We have a large enough army to take some cities and really establish a strong foothold here. Any thoughts are very welcome. Also, we should settle the Southern whale city. Perhaps the Maoi can go in there? Otherwise in our capitol. I;m going to have to Google some JB references for city names
woopdeedoo,
Thanks for your thoughts.
On Kassite and surrounding land:
The Copper and the Fish are five tiles apart and therefore can't fall in the BFC of the same city. The Fish is the only resource of interest down there I'd suggest, so if anywhere I'd raze Kassite and resettle 1N (to pick up two Grassland Hills and Tundra Hills - "L") or 1NW (to pick up a Forested Grassland and a Grassland Hills - "K").
With that said - in hindsight I don't think that there's any hurry to re-settle this spot given that our empire maintenance is bound to be really high once more Chinese cities come out of revolt, and tossing in a fairly low-commerce far-away city with few workable tiles arguably won't help a lot. I was hoping that there would be a second if not third seafood resource down there to make it worthwhile, but the War Elephant revealed on the last turn that it's got just the one Fish resource. On the 'plus side' - Berlin has The Great Lighthouse, which makes coastal cities far more attractive 'if' we capture it, so once we get Courthouses up and get our economy to a solid state and 'if' we take Berlin, sites such as this look far better.
No such thing as Maoi Statues in the Warlords expansion I think.
On Germany:
You're echoing the same questions that I asked in my PPP outlined in #131 above. I'd say that because we have so many of our War Elephants down south and out of position, that there's an argument that we have a good 10 turns of 'development' before we can get them up to the north anyway ... however it's probably worth noting that we do need to capture Dortmund (raze and re-settle the area in better spots later?) which will need maybe six of our units anyway, so some of the units in the south can be directed there initially rather than needing to make the great trek north.
**Also note** that he's bringing down a Settler party (three tiles west of Beijing), so the anti-Dortmund stack will probably be required for this next city too.
Assuming that we attack Germany, I'd use the first part of this turnset to see through the current builds, start getting some Courthouses up, and otherwise some top-up War Elephants and Jewish Missionaries (***esp. Prague*** - indeed, I'd consider interrupting Amsterdam's Granary and insert a Missionary into the queue, build for a turn [putting in less than 10
] and 2-pop whip it with overflow to finish the Granary).
Other sites
With three Settlers being built, we're in some position to at least consider additional city sites;
Thanks for your thoughts.
On Kassite and surrounding land:
The Copper and the Fish are five tiles apart and therefore can't fall in the BFC of the same city. The Fish is the only resource of interest down there I'd suggest, so if anywhere I'd raze Kassite and resettle 1N (to pick up two Grassland Hills and Tundra Hills - "L") or 1NW (to pick up a Forested Grassland and a Grassland Hills - "K").
Spoiler :
With that said - in hindsight I don't think that there's any hurry to re-settle this spot given that our empire maintenance is bound to be really high once more Chinese cities come out of revolt, and tossing in a fairly low-commerce far-away city with few workable tiles arguably won't help a lot. I was hoping that there would be a second if not third seafood resource down there to make it worthwhile, but the War Elephant revealed on the last turn that it's got just the one Fish resource. On the 'plus side' - Berlin has The Great Lighthouse, which makes coastal cities far more attractive 'if' we capture it, so once we get Courthouses up and get our economy to a solid state and 'if' we take Berlin, sites such as this look far better.
No such thing as Maoi Statues in the Warlords expansion I think.
On Germany:
You're echoing the same questions that I asked in my PPP outlined in #131 above. I'd say that because we have so many of our War Elephants down south and out of position, that there's an argument that we have a good 10 turns of 'development' before we can get them up to the north anyway ... however it's probably worth noting that we do need to capture Dortmund (raze and re-settle the area in better spots later?) which will need maybe six of our units anyway, so some of the units in the south can be directed there initially rather than needing to make the great trek north.
**Also note** that he's bringing down a Settler party (three tiles west of Beijing), so the anti-Dortmund stack will probably be required for this next city too.
Assuming that we attack Germany, I'd use the first part of this turnset to see through the current builds, start getting some Courthouses up, and otherwise some top-up War Elephants and Jewish Missionaries (***esp. Prague*** - indeed, I'd consider interrupting Amsterdam's Granary and insert a Missionary into the queue, build for a turn [putting in less than 10
] and 2-pop whip it with overflow to finish the Granary). Other sites
With three Settlers being built, we're in some position to at least consider additional city sites;
I like the coastal Desert tile north of the Mountain just to the south west of Prague with two seafood, four Grassland, and a Grassland Hill.
In terms of far-flung cities; coastal Wine-Cows-Fur in the south east could go some way to paying for itself with a Fur Camp and whipping a Courthouse courtesy of the from the Grasslands Cow ("I"), or going inland to get the Iron and second Wine plus some Grassland, but giving up the Fur could work ("M").
The Germans will probably settle somewhere between Shanghai and Beijing anyway (see "J" as a 'maybe?') - but that area's got a couple of possibilities for a small fill-the-gap city.
There's those two patches of fairly bare Grassland; the one east of Amsterdam with the Grassland Copper (see "Silver" in spoiler), and the area south of Dortmund near the Marble, which I'm '50-50' on whether we should do anything about due to burgeoning city maintenance and possibly more captured (German) cities to add to the weight.
I am personally not a fan of "Purple" - it's got a Whale that we can't use until Optics, and a Plains Cow (only 3 when in a Pasture) and otherwise steals good tiles off Zurich.
Spoiler :
In terms of far-flung cities; coastal Wine-Cows-Fur in the south east could go some way to paying for itself with a Fur Camp and whipping a Courthouse courtesy of the
from the Grasslands Cow ("I"), or going inland to get the Iron and second Wine plus some Grassland, but giving up the Fur could work ("M").Spoiler :
The Germans will probably settle somewhere between Shanghai and Beijing anyway (see "J" as a 'maybe?') - but that area's got a couple of possibilities for a small fill-the-gap city.
Spoiler :
There's those two patches of fairly bare Grassland; the one east of Amsterdam with the Grassland Copper (see "Silver" in spoiler), and the area south of Dortmund near the Marble, which I'm '50-50' on whether we should do anything about due to burgeoning city maintenance and possibly more captured (German) cities to add to the weight.
Spoiler :
I am personally not a fan of "Purple" - it's got a Whale that we can't use until Optics, and a Plains Cow (only 3
when in a Pasture) and otherwise steals good tiles off Zurich.Spoiler :
woopdeedoo
King
I like "H" (but possibly 1N), "I", "M" (but 3 W), "Silver", for immediate settles. With cottages and CourtHouses, the maintenance cost will be offset ok (I think 
).
Regarding war with Bis, I think if we can consolidate our forces North, we could possibly do some damage. Kill the settling party before they settle (if possible). I'm unsure as to what forces Bis has in Dortmund. And yeah, IF we can grab TGLh city, coastal+cottages+CH's will really sort out our finances.
We will need to do some spawn busting in the South to stop additional barbs if we decide to go warring in the North.
).Regarding war with Bis, I think if we can consolidate our forces North, we could possibly do some damage. Kill the settling party before they settle (if possible). I'm unsure as to what forces Bis has in Dortmund. And yeah, IF we can grab TGLh city, coastal+cottages+CH's will really sort out our finances.
We will need to do some spawn busting in the South to stop additional barbs if we decide to go warring in the North.
