More Immortal Fun

[Wrathful]

I'm back again with another immortal game. Same settings as last time.

• Fractal
• Standard Size
• 6 AIs
• No huts
• No events

Leader:

Spoiler Leader :

The one and only Toku. At least we won't have him as a neighbor. If we have any neighbors at all. Who knows what Sid has in store for us...

Start:

Spoiler Start :

Very nice land here. We even start on a PH. No reason to move here I think.

I have already played quite a few turns. Maybe some pros can critique my choices.

Spoiler To T76 :

Settled in place. Set production to worker. Waited until turn 5 to set research to Agriculture.

Turn 9 I meet Charlie, the founder of Buddhism.

I also finished Agriculture that turn. What to tech next? AH for pigs? Too many wasted worker turns if I do that. I went Mining > BW. Worker can mine some hills then chop.

Corn farm finished T16. Worker proceeds to mine the pigs.

BW, road to second city, and settler were all finished on T32. Revolted to Slavery.

Starting with The Wheel is nice. It let me do this:

I don't think Tokugawa is quite as bad as people say he is (he's still pretty bad though).

Maybe Charlemagne is a worse leader. Or Churchill perhaps.

As you can probably guess from the screenshot, I settled my dry wheat and plains cows next turn. Worker immediately started improving the wheat.

Techwise my options are Pottery and Animal Husbandry. I decided to head for Pottery first. AH is a big investment at the moment. I would like to build some cottages and get the commerce flowing. Also granaries. Was this a good move?

Capital will build one more warrior, then a barracks, then 2-pop whip a worker.

Second city starts on a work boat for later.

Haven't met anyone else yet, and Charlie is putting all his points on me. Guess it's semi-isolation again!

I went for Animal Husbandry after Pottery.

Just when I thought all hope was lost, I met this fellow! His workboat sailed in from the south.

He hasn't met Charlie yet. I redirect my espionage to him.

T51: Good times for the glorious Japanese Empire. Settling my third city next turn, getting a granary in capital, getting AH soon. What could possibly stop us now?

Buddhist Stonehenge builder is most cultured. Hindu founder is probably in second. Creative Willem is only fourth? Perhaps we have another creative civ in this game?

I finished AH on T53. Found horses near Osaka. Heading for Writing next.

Newly-founded Minoan does the rest of the fogbusting for me. I can still claim the corn and fish without problems.

Writing came in T64, opened borders with everyone.

T71 I whipped libraries. After that I turned up my slider for Sailing.

My nearest and dearest friend Charlie spread Buddhism into my capital.

I'm pretty sure Charlie met someone else. He would have more espionage points on me if he didn't know anyone else.

I stopped at T76. I just produced another settler and wasn't sure where to go. I could claim the corn to the south, or go with option two:

This city could take the corn. Capital has a bit too much food at the moment. The site has loads of forest and can also develop two cottages for the capital. A worker is available to chop the granary.

After Sailing I might tech to Monarchy. Not much happiness here. Can't count on the others to have happiness resources to trade.

There's stone to the east. Could come in handy. It has plains cow too.

Overall I feel like I'm a little slow with expansion here. Maybe. Beaker rate is not very impressive either. Not sure.

 

[Wrathful]

And here's my Turn 76 save.

 

[Swordnboard]

Spoiler T76 :

Looking pretty good I think, especially considering the leader and the land are both not so great.

I would have built less infrastructure in Kyoto. The barracks definitely seems unnecessary, and the granary might have been better off as an earlier settler as well. Did you build the barracks for lack of a better item to grow on? If so, maybe BW could have waited until after pottery to facilitate a granary, or maybe even just slow-build that settler rather than whipping it. In terms of beaker rate, you'll see a marked improvement when you get more libraries in and work scientists more, I don't think it's so bad in the meantime.

One mistake I notice is not building a work boat to explore with, since you haven't seen the borders of willem or charly yet and will soon have access to sailing for juicy intercontinental trade routes.

This start is so tough because we need all of the big 3 ancient techs (AH, Pottery, BW) really quickly but have no commerce resource, financial trait, floodplains, etc. to get there. I think the key to a better opening here is the correct sequencing of those three (and writing, sailing to a lesser extent), but I've yet to decide which sequencing is the best myself. Going to play through once or twice I think.

 

[Fippy]

Not sure if i dare doing that on deity (would build more warriors for sure, maybe better here too did not think much about it ),
but on Imm with little pressure i really like Agri - Pottery - AH.
Looks like that

Spoiler :

No harm in waiting until T38 for the first settler imo, and in return having a good commerce situation.
With wheel, worker was always busy.
I prefer 2nd city nw for floodplains (after border pop in Kyoto), another nice cottage, no need for rushing fish border pop thou (but nice later).

 

[Wrathful]

Spoiler Feedback :

It's looks like teching BW after Agriculture may not have been the best move. Fippy's save with Pottery > AH is very convincing. Good commerce there.

Yes, I should have gotten one more work boat to explore. I can get one from Tokyo somehow.

But my current position is not so bad.

Spoiler To T109 :

After researching Sailing I turned down my slider for a little while. My options now are Monarchy and Alphabet.

T80 someone got Code of Laws. Next turn Willem converts to Confucianism...bad news for me. He still hasn't met Charlie by the way.

My workboat has successfully established trade routes with the Holy Roman Empire. I'll keep exploring in that direction. I'm 90% sure there's someone else over there.

I have another boat going to the west. Hopefully I will find Willem and get some nice overseas trade routes.

I decided to head for Monarchy. Can I count on tech trades here? I wasn't sure. Monarchy is guaranteed to give happiness. Also wanted to build a monastery in my capital to boost research.

T84 I met another AI.

He's the biggest of course. Zara is one of the strongest AIs.

His workboat came in from the south. He knows both of the other leaders.

Interesting land shape here. I can always count on Fractal to produce fun maps.

And I met the fourth AI the turn after.

He knows only Charlemagne. My eastern work boat found his scout.

I open borders and make this trade:

I need Hunting for the deer camp later.

He is plotting. Well, protective charlie should be able to handle it. Unless someone else is the target?

Zara converted to Confucianism. Bad news.

Barbarians aren't making this easy.

I didn't think they would move off the city like that. I have one chariot and one warrior to defend.

Now I look kind of foolish here. I don't want to settle this until I can start improving the corn. I'll wait a turn and see what the barbs do.

T93: Cyrus converted to Judaism. Religious situation is rough here.

Got Monarchy on T96. Revolted to Hereditary Rule.

T97: Met the founder of Judaism.

T101: This announcement reminds me that I still haven't met the Hindu founder yet.

Finally traded for Alphabet.

Got Iron Working from Charlie for Monarchy.

Cyrus took a town from Hammy. Zara converts to Buddhism. Excellent...

T103: Willem begged Alphabet. I thought about this for a little while. Decided to decline. He should stay at cautious. Don't want to advance this guy any further.

T105: I found the last person's borders, but I can't contact them!

Orange colored borders. So Carthage perhaps? I need to find some way to reach them. Hannibal is a great guy to trade with.

T106: Traded Alphabet to Charlie for Math and Masonry

Got a great scientist this turn. I built an Academy in my capital. Research set to Currency.

T109: Currency provides a big boost to the empire. Now my plan is CoL > Civil Service.

Not sure what to do in the long-term. I guess I'll plan some kind of attack against Charlie. He has the Pyramids and Buddhist shrine. Zara is another option, but then I would have to use galleys or something to offload my units onto his land. Bleh.

Maybe I'll do Cuirs again.

 

[Wrathful]

Turn 109 save.

 

[Gumbolt]

My attempt up to 25ad.

Spoiler Thoughts :

Pottery vs bronze working. Tough call. I went Pottery as historically Toku struggles for commerce.

Happiness issue? Either trade for monarchy or go mids? I went mids as I had stone.

Bureau capital seems best.

Workboats to explore. Took a warrior to find Hammy and Persians.

With way map is spread out cuirs seems best here to finish game. Knights and samurai are nice but Ai is teching way too quick here. A lot of land for Ai to expand into.

No calendar resources nearby.

 

[Gumbolt]

Things are getting interesting. 680ad

Spoiler update :

So I have techs for cuirs now. I have about 10-11 cuirs scattered across my land. I have signed a defensive pact with HRG. The Persians are either about to attack me or head off to attack the Dutch. If they attack me this is great news. I have no idea how defensive packs and DOW work. Will the units enter my land or get sent somewhere random. Soon find out.

I don't mind HRG sending his stack to attack Persian either way. With HBR/immortals I am not sure how they hope to do any damage with 1 catapult.

Just glad I reached cuirs in time.

 

[Gumbolt]

Cheesed out.

Spoiler update :

Vasselled HRE after taking 4-5 cities.
Cyrus then built AP. I took his big cities near HRE.
Gifted Hannibal a missionary and the game was over 2-3 turns later. Clicked through the final 5-6 turns.

Could of easily vasslled Cyrus. A bit more effort for the naval invasions. Game was pretty much won so went AP.

 

[cseanny]

Nicely played Gumbolt. Cheese is good!

Speaking for myself, I absolutely hate any kind of Naval Warfare and avoid it like the plague. Pangaea equals early conquest but Iso, Semi-Iso, or any water map I'll ALWAYS try for Religious, Culture, or not play the map .

 

[Gumbolt]

I could of done the naval thing. Just when you look at the AP screen and you are already nearly 80% with 1-2 AI pleased/friendly it makes no sense to fight on.

Spoiler defensive pacts :

In terms of this the units pinged to the other side of HRE empire. It's one of those moments where the AI declare on you and end up at war with the protective trait nation.

Does mean the red fists can be abused in certain situations. E.g. When you know an Ai is about to attack you. (Albeit these arrive so late in game it's a very small advantage.) Still useful if you lack the techs to bribe AI into war.

Of course guessing who the red fist is for is another matter. Could backfire if they attack an AI you wern't expecting.

 

[Wrathful]

Thanks for playing along and congrats on the win Gumbolt!

I looked at your 25AD save.

Spoiler Your save :

Wow. I guess I should have scouted more. I missed out on some nice land to the east.

I can see the snowballing here with Pottery first. Your cottages are better developed, which means that they will give more commerce in Bureaucracy.

You completed the Pyramids at 600BC. That seems awfully late. On Deity they would have been built by then, yes? So if this was a Deity game you'd have to go for the stone earlier to get the Mids.

Techwise you're doing a lot better than me. Perhaps I shouldn't have gone for Monarchy myself. It might have been smarter to tech Aesthetics and trade for Monarchy somehow.

I played on. I made a pretty significant error in judgement in this turnset. Read on for details...

Spoiler To T132 :

I was able to trade for half of CoL + some gold.

My next goal is Civil Service. Music was another possibility, but Willem already has Aesthetics. Not sure if I could win Music. I need to get my Bureau capital up and running.

I explored a little to the east and found that there was still some unsettled land. Also found a barb galley. He's approaching my empire, but since my all my fish resources are in ocean tiles he won't be able to pillage them.

AIs are teching fast here. Zara going for Civil Service. I still have the monopoly on Currency though. Tech rate is decent, would be much better if I had gone for Pottery before Bronze Working.

I got Civil Service on T120. Revolted to Bureaucracy.

Cyrus got Philosophy on T123. He converted to Buddhism that turn.

As you can see, Zara is getting Drama in three turns. Next he'll likely try to win Music.

The free great artist would be such a massive boost to my economy here. Especially because I'm using Bureaucracy. I could produce more great people as well. And I would suffer no anarchy from civic switches.

So I tried going for it now. I can tech faster than Zara. Just need to get some cash somehow.

Willem could ruin this whole strategy by the way. Relying on luck here.

Some shenanigans helped me out.

Now he can go for Literature himself, but that won't help him.

Zara built the Hanging Gardens. Next turn Willem has a big pile of failgold available. Yes!

Charlie has neglected his expansion. I suppose I'll claim the ocean fish, then build a few swords to capture the barb city. Border pop? Run artists in Caste! Or just build culture with Music.

On T127 I was one turn away from Music. I checked the tech screen. No one had the tech. Zara was going Feudalism. Everything looked great.

I clicked end turn. I looked at my capital. No great artist...

I looked at the tech screen and saw that no one else had Music. I thought that there was some error. I looked through the log. A great artist had been born in 175 AD. Then it hit me.

Hannibal teched Music! The great techer. The civ I can't meet until Optics. I couldn't believe I had failed to foresee this.

Well, it's not all bad. I needed Music anyway for Military Tradition. I guess I'll just start a golden age with a scientist instead. I have one coming in a few turns. I'll just have one less bulb I suppose.

I made this trade a few turns later.

I need HBR to builds cuirs later. I still had dreams about bulbing Liberalism. Need Calendar to unlock the bulb.

Got Philosophy on T132. I could start a golden age next turn when I get my great scientist. But I think I will wait a few more turns. I have a little more whipping to do in my new cities, and I want to bank some gold so I can tech nonstop while the golden age is in progress.

Besides from the Music thing, there were some questionable worker actions. I also had trouble with barb galleys. Not my best play ever. I still think I can take out Charlie. Hopefully.

 

[Gumbolt]

Looks like your game is very winnable from here.

Spoiler Comparing saves. :

Actually tech wise you are not far off me. I had paper. I lacked Calendar and HBR. Ai had feudalism on my save. I could of traded for all of these techs. I got the music GArt. Maybe lucky on the mids.

At 300ad I was teching 476 beakers a turn but I was running a golden age.

Very frustrating to meet the final AI. I see you found him but couldn't quite say hello.

Cuirs always seemed best option here. I wanted to play with the Toku UU but way map is designed was never going to happen.

 

[Wrathful]

Thanks for the encouragement. I may have been too hard on myself.

Spoiler To T145 :

Trying to settle my island here, but there's too many barb galleys!

I can't just drop off my settler, there might be barbarians on the island.

I started my golden age on Turn 136. I switched into caste system and pacifism. Overview of my good cities:

Kyoto, the pride of my empire. This place will get me through Paper, Gunpowder, etc.

This place will get a merchant. Maybe. If I irrigate the wheat I should have enough food to get through. I have three workers on the task.

Tokyo will get two great scientists.

Satsuma will get the third great scientist. The Lib bulber. Couldn't stop myself from working the iron mine.

My other cities aren't very impressive.

My cash reserve is a bit low. I really need someone to build Chichen Itza. Didn't the same thing happen in my Sitting Bull game? Had to build it myself there...

Map trading will help.

The turn after I started my golden age I remembered Hannibal. Hannibal! What if he gets Lib?

I can't Lib Military Tradition this time. I have to use it on Nationalism. I really wish Willem would give me Metal Casting. Or Compass.

This is maddening! Why do you troll me, Sid?

Okay, let's think about this. Hannibal can't be that much farther along in tech than Willem. He's good but not that good. Not as good as Mansa. He has military flavor. I would say he might have paper. But not Education surely?

I wonder if it would have been possible to meet Hannibal if I had kept exploring to the east with my work boat.

T140: Charlie got Metal Casting. Now everyone will trade it. I got it from Cyrus for some old tech.

I bulbed Education once. I will bulb Lib next turn.

T141: Issac Newton bulbed Liberalism.

I was short on cash. Still no Chichen Itza. I need to run my slider at 100% to finish it this turn. I had to make some kind of trade.

Need Feudalism to capitulate people later.

And the result:

I still need to get Gunpowder and Military Tradition. So I suppose I will attack around 1000 AD or so.

And that brings us to 700 AD. Golden age is over. I just got a Great Merchant and will send him to Amsterdam. I will switch into slavery. I also need to switch out of Pacifism. Unit costs are killing me here. I wonder if I should go for Free Religion. The science boost would be nice. But it would hurt relations with other AIs.

They still haven't built Chichen Itza by the way. So much for failgold.

 

[Gumbolt]

Spoiler Thoughts :

I think I got final tech for cuirs around 580ad. Gunpowder followed a few turns after lib. I don't think there was any risk of losing lib here. Hannibal was quite backwards tech wise on my save. I really doubt he would of won race to Lib that early.

I don't get the island city ploy. You have foreign trade routes anyway. Those barb galleys will wander round that island doing nothing. I think they will only go 7 squares into a player culture.

Least you can upgrade HA to cuirs with GM gold. That or use it to tech faster to MT.

You can also get fail gold on national wonders?

 

[Wrathful]

I recently rolled another start that I looked pretty interesting. But I don't want to post another game without finishing this one. So I have resolved to see this one through to the end.

Spoiler Feedback :

Lib race: I guess I had already been beaten to Music and didn't want Hannibal to beat me again. Maybe he is teching faster in my save.

I probably should have waited to get the island city until after I got the techs for cuirs. At this point it's just slowing me down. I certainly want to 4-seafood place eventually. It could be a whipping paradise in the late game. I do plan on pursuing domination or UN victory. So I need to get galleons somehow if I want to kill Zara or Willem.

Spoiler To T157 :

I began this turnset by considering what civics to switch into. I needed slavery for sure. Bureaucracy was also a keeper. The tougher choice was my religious civic. Pacifism was killing my economy. So I could go for Organized Religion, Paganism, or Free Religion. OR was out, too expensive, no need for buildings or missionaries here. I thought about Free Religion for a long time. The tech boost could get me to cuirs a turn or two faster. In the end, though, I decided that relations with Zara and Cyrus was more important. Zara in particular. He is friendly with me.

So I switched into Paganism and Slavery.

I kept trading with Cyrus. I'm not really sure if this was a good trade actually. Do I even need this? It's required for Rifling.

T147: Cyrus built Chichen Itza. Finally. I will happily collect my failgold.

Also got 200 gold from Willem for Calendar.

Charlie's looking pretty weak here.

He's not plotting, just blissfully sitting there with three defenders (if you count the catapult).

T152: My Great Merchant arrives at the sprawling metropolis of Amsterdam. In the nick of time too.

Willem has a decent stack. Nothing too scary. Not that I care very much. I am more concerned with the 2100 gold I will be collecting. How could people ever have thought that settling Great Merchants is better than a huge pile of cash?

Military Tradition is within sight. I will upgrade a bunch of horse archers and roll over Charlie. I don't want to wait. He's so weak right now. I have to seize my opportunity now.

Another questionable trade:

Wanted to meet Hannibal. And Construction helps a little with movement.

Got Military Tradition 920 AD. By 940 AD I am ready to attack. I have nine cuirs and four horse archers. More on the way.

Pisa will fall this turn. Then his capital, the shrine, and Mids will be mine.

 

[Gumbolt]

Spoiler thoughts :

Hannibal beat you to music but he seems some way off education. Immortal Ai rarely get lib before 1000ad. Unless the game is teching super fast. You would of met a caravel by now.

Willem and Zara are not really a threat here. They would have to build a navy to attack you and they don't normally plan naval assaults very well. Good to have them at pleased/friendly. I think Willem will still attack at pleased.

Trade route for 2100 is very impressive. I didn't even try this on my save. Might of been good if I built 9-10 HA to fully upgrade to cuirs on T1 of war.

I think I would be trading for engineering for much faster cuirs over roads.. I was late to this tech as none had it by time I was ready for war. Remember HRE LB will be CG 2 or CG3 here. You will lose a few units unless all your cuitrs are C3 or C4?

Looks like HRE has AP so the chesse options shouold be easy here. Leave HRE with the AP?

 

[Fippy]

I think you can try attacking now, but would scout first if unknown what's in Aachen (i did with 1 HA).
While Charlie might be weak overall, he could defend his hill Cap with LB, Jumbos, Landsknechts against your still limited amount of Cuirs,
if rng is not on your side

Agree with Gumbo that you need Engineering, also for attacking Aachen next turn and not giving him more time.
Maybe Edu to Zara for Engi, Theo & Drama?
Could switch into Theocracy after that trade, Paci will just hurt you with gpt for units very soon and +2xp on new Cuirs is nice.

 

[Wrathful]

Decided to finally finish this one. 1580 AD domination victory. I played very sloppily towards the end but I think it went pretty well regardless. Thanks to everyone who gave advice.

Spoiler "Write-up" :

I wiped out Charlie, capped Hammy, wiped out Cyrus, capped Willem, and was trying to cap Zara when I tripped the Domination limit.

Hannibal did nothing all game. I guess he figured his work was finished when he stole Music from me.

Definitely an enjoyable game. I rolled an interesting start and might post that one soon. But the new Noble's club game looks fun too...