Moving from Vanilla to BtS

[lynxcat]

Hello everyone. Long time lurker, first time poster. I've been playing Civ4 for about a year now, gradually moving from Warlord up to Monarch/Emperor difficulty. However, all my experience is with the vanilla version. I'm picking up Beyond the Sword this week, and I'd appreciate any advice I can get on making the transition.

I'm aware of all the cosmetic changes that BtS brings - new leaders, traits, UBs, etc. What I don't know is how or if the fundamentals of the game and the behavior of the AI changes from vanilla to BtS. From reading the forum I gather that the AI is a bit more competant in warfare than it was before, and does a better job of pushing for a specific win condition. It's hard to get a sense of how these changes affect turn-to-turn gameplay though. I feel I have a pretty good grasp on the fundamentals of optimal play (ex: specialize your cities, war early and often, have a clear plan to win the game), but it'd be great to hear whether I need to make adjustments to succeed in BtS.

In addition to any broad-based advice I can get, I'm also looking for any tips regarding specific techs, units or what-have-yous that have changed in BtS. For example, I remember reading somewhere that the AI prioritizes the Alphabet tech more highly in BtS so it doesn't work nearly as well as trade fodder. Teching Alphabet early has been a staple in most of my games, so I guess I'll have to adjust that?

I'm also wondering what level I should start out on. I've been winning almost every game on Monarch and a little less than half on Emperor. Should I drop down a level or two for my first few tries on BtS?

Thanks in advance for any and all replies!

 

[Crenor]

I think the general consensus when BtS was released was that it was actually easier than Vanilla or Warlords. Due to the improved AI, many bonuses that AI civs got at higher difficulty levels were removed in BtS. The effect of the removed bonuses was actually greater than the effect of the improved AI, resulting in an easier game. So I would start at the same level you were on before. If you could beat monarch in vanilla, you can beat it in BtS.

There isn't really anything you have to be prepared for in BtS. It will probably take you a few games to get used to some of the new features like the AP and espionage, but there is nothing that should totally alter your strategy. Most of the major changes are in the late game. Keep in mind that space race victory has more parts to build, but not all are required.

 

[vicawoo]

You should be able to play at monarch/emperor. You can get a lot more land from a REX. The AI will whip defenders, so you will have to attack by surprise. They also get a food growth bonus that didn't exist before, if I recall, so you don't want higher level prolonged wars.

 

[Fetch]

slightly off topic, but if you purchase BtS, do you get the features in Warlords, or is that separate?

 

[DaveMcW]

You get the features, but not compatibility with Warlords games.

 

[Joshua368]

The only thing you miss out from skipping Warlords is a few scenarios. All the gameplay additions and leaders were tossed into BtS.

 

[Fetch]

warlords games compatibility/scenarios doesn't really sound like something worth my $30.

I may move to BtS now...

 

[Joshua368]

warlords games compatibility/scenarios doesn't really sound like something worth my $30.

I may move to BtS now...

Yeah, skipping to BtS is the best idea, unless you were like me and had a walmart that was always out of stock of the original Civ 4 and only had the $10 more expensive gold edition left, every single week.

Still BtS is great and go for it. The only reason to buy Warlords is if you find yourself two or three years in the past.

 

[kazapp]

There are lots of subtle improvements too in BtS (or in Warlords, not that you'll see the difference).

Even "easy" things like Chariots getting a bonus vs Axes and Barbs spawning Spears. Things we tend to forget wasn't always there.

Much greatness, not only in the late game (which you play much less than the early game).

I can't imagine going back. Which is kind of the best praise an expansion can get, huh?

 

[Fetch]

warlords games compatibility/scenarios doesn't really sound like something worth my $30.

I may move to BtS now...

I went to Best Buy at lunch and bought BtS. $19.99. Nobody around here would appreciate my excitement as much as you folks.

 

[lynxcat]

Thanks for the replies. I picked up the game yesterday and I played up to about 500 AD with Monty last night. My first random event was obviously a barb uprising in 2800 BC, but my second attempt went very smoothly. The early game seems relatively unchanged, with a few exceptions...I had gold in the capital's BFC and thought I had a great chance at a CS slingshot from the Oracle. I completed Code of Laws on the same turn as the Oracle...and then found out the prereqs for Civil Service had changed

The AI also seems to expand and tech noticeably slower, though that might be because there's a lot of jungle in my first game. I was stuck on a peninsula, cut off from the rest of the continent by a mountain range, but still found myself the largest and most populous civ when I finally got some galleys out and met everyone. In vanilla that rarely happened for me until after my first war.

Shaka is blocking my access to the rest of the continent and I'm currently building up an army to take him down. Knowing his reputation I'm a bit wary of going to war with him, but he's behind in tech and is at war with Justinian on his opposite border. Should be an interesting intro to BtS warfare.

A couple quick questions based on my early impressions:

1) Do rifles have a true counter in BtS? Grens sort of countered them in Vanilla, but only on the offensive...and even then pinch or city defender rifles could hold them off pretty well. I'm a big fan of the "Liberalism -> Nationalism, then beeline Rifling and conquer the world with conscripted rifles" approach in the Renaissance era.

2) How do you tend to assign your EP weights? I want to know what my military targets are up to so I can prepare for war, but also what my trading partners are researching so I can get the most from tech trading. Any decent rule of thumb for this or is it entirely situational?

 

[kazapp]

I your current game, I wouldn't waste EPs on Shaka, because once he's dead (or vassalized) you don't need any espionage against him.

I mainly select the top 3 civs and assign all EPs towards them. Of course, in the early game, it can be hard guessing which civs will come out on top.


Regarding Grenadiers, they, and not Riflemen were considered the problem. That is, BtS has fixed the loop-hole where you could beeline Grenadiers very early and get yourself a unit that really was unstoppable until Infantry/Machinegunners (because they would almost never meet plenty of Cavalry, a unit the AI doesn't consider for city defense).

 

[Joshua368]

Yeah, they really switched around the units in that era. Personally I like it more, because they pushed back some like grenadiers to give musketmen time to shine. Basically while Rifles and Cannons are in their same position on the tech tree, Grenadiers have been pushed back one tech to the dead-end Military Science, while you need both Military Tradition and Rifling to get Cavalry. (and without rifling you get a musketman-era horse unit)

 

[K.K.]

I recently got BtS after about one year on vanilla and just finsihed my first noble game on a standard size map (fractal). My first impression is that BtS is easier than vanilla, at least when you're winning. I (Willem) shared a strange isolated island with a large inland sea with the Aztec civ, which was destroyed around 400AD. Shortly after that I got optics and discovered the other 5 civs, 4 of which shared a large continent (Toku, Bull, Churchill and Huayna) with the 5th (Charlemagne) occupying an island in galley distance from the 4-civ continent. 3-4 of them shared religion at any given time, so I had expected them to be ahead or at least on par with me tech-wise. Well... I was like 10-20 techs ahead when I met them and pulled away even more as I improved my cities. So, learned Astronomy and took Charlemagne's island, then destroyed Huayna. Blocked the other civs' rich coastal cities with privateers before they even had optics and saw them lose pop for each turn...The remaining civs became my vassals after me taking one or two of their cities, for an easy conquest (Domination criteria also met). The vassal/capitulation mechanics in BtS seem to significantly reduce the time required for conquest/domination victories as compared to vanilla. The espionage system also strongly favors large/advanced empires with many courthouses etc, allowing them while the weaker civs will have less overview of power etc than in vanilla.

So vassals/capitulation, privateers, espionage, great generals/spies +++ all favor the strong/advanced civs... too bad if you're not one of them. On the other hand, Apostolic palace resolutions, Statue of Zevs (if you've got it) and weaker siege weapons (cannot kill or attack from sea) may slow down the stronger civ, but not much when compared to the added benefits of BtS.

 

[lynxcat]

Due to the improved AI, many bonuses that AI civs got at higher difficulty levels were removed in BtS. The effect of the removed bonuses was actually greater than the effect of the improved AI, resulting in an easier game.

This basically sums up my opinion after playing 4 full games on BtS. The AI definitely manages itself more intelligently. In my second game I was impressed that Huayna was actually going to pull off a culture win before I could launch my spaceship (unfortunately due to me mismanaging the new and unfamiliar spaceship design). I was even more impressed when he switched abruptly to an attempt at domination after I razed his capital. But in general it seems easier to keep up with the AI in terms of tech and expansion.

Thanks for the helpful replies everyone. One last question:

On Vanilla I always used to set my workers to "Automate Trade Routes" after I'd run out of improvements for them to build. As I understood it, workers wouldn't build improvements on anything other than resource tiles with this setting. Kind of a pain when you need that riverside wine in your Ironworks city watermilled, but bearable. On BtS though, every time I give them this command they start building unwanted improvements on resource-less tiles - putting down random workshops that destroy my chain irrigation or matured cottages. Is there some setting or mod that can prevent this? I just want to build a railroad network with less than 500 clicks...

 

[JujuLautre]

This is not Vanilla or BTS related. In the game options, you have one which says "automated workers leave old improvements", that's the thing you're searching for.

 

[Joshua368]

Also be sure to check off "automated workers leave forests" while you're at it, don't need them cutting all those down. They'll axe down jungles regardless though. Personally I don't automate them until I've already hand-picked all the improvements in each of my cities' BFCs first.

 

[lynxcat]

Excellent...I could never figure out the rhyme or reason for some automated worker actions. Thanks!