Mulcarn vs Agares?

So their good alignment represents who they were at the beginning of the age of rebirth and their fall happens much later? Should not a leader with a different alignment (maybe even evil) be an option? Or does the change of religion in game reflect this fall. If so and Sabathial is the leader would that represent not him but the leader the high priest say is their leader? (hopefully my ramblings make sense)
 
True, but only Kael really knows what Decius is. I know in game wise I was pondering lore in terms of game play.

Edit: Of course that may very well be the case with Decius. I figured he would have joined the Bannor as a good leader in one of the scenarios, but this could be what Kael has planned for him...
 
So I'm very new to the lore side of things, but I was hoping to get a few answers here.

Do all gods have arch-angels/demons? I'm pretty sure that's what Basium and Hyborem are, right? (IIRC, Basium rebelled against his god's wishes and entered creation to fight evil, correct me if wrong)
Would that make them (Basi and Hyb) Avatars, or is that a different class altogether? What is Auric (man/Avatar/god/other)? How are archangels/demons affected by the compact? Would the Godslayer have any effect on them? And if the archangels acn come and go so freely, why don't all the gods send their henchmen to do the dirty work in creation?

Sorry about the pile of Q's, but ever since I saw the changelog for 0.34 I've been trying to tie the hierarchy together.
 
A good bit of this has been discussed in the lore sub forum I will see if I can find some links for you there...

This is a good thread about many of the gods and the aspects http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=268765
It is in the lore sub forum. There are a many good reads there.
 
So I'm very new to the lore side of things, but I was hoping to get a few answers here.

Do all gods have arch-angels/demons? I'm pretty sure that's what Basium and Hyborem are, right? (IIRC, Basium rebelled against his god's wishes and entered creation to fight evil, correct me if wrong)
Would that make them (Basi and Hyb) Avatars, or is that a different class altogether? What is Auric (man/Avatar/god/other)? How are archangels/demons affected by the compact? Would the Godslayer have any effect on them? And if the archangels acn come and go so freely, why don't all the gods send their henchmen to do the dirty work in creation?

Sorry about the pile of Q's, but ever since I saw the changelog for 0.34 I've been trying to tie the hierarchy together.

All gods do have archangels and yes that is what Basium and Hyborem are. Basium is the archangel of Arawn and Hyborem the archangel of Agares.

No they are not avatars I beleive that is just used as a racial promotion to link the highest strength units together so they can all be effected by the Godslayer, because of this it seems unlikely the godslayer would work on archangels or angels.

Auric is human, he is the reincarnation of Mulcarn, the god of winter. But after some rituals Auric will become Auric Ascended and become a god again...

Most of the gods don't send in their archangels because they support the compact. But there are quite a few already there, such as Cassiel, Basium, Hyborem, Brigit, Odio(encased in stone), and I think the avatar of wrath is an archangel aswell, I think it might have been Camulos's archangel. And some are busy doing other things such as Hastur influencing the Octopus Overlords religion through Danalin's dreams.
 
Do all gods have arch-angels/demons? I'm pretty sure that's what Basium and Hyborem are, right? (IIRC, Basium rebelled against his god's wishes and entered creation to fight evil, correct me if wrong)
Yes, yes, and yes.
Would that make them (Basi and Hyb) Avatars, or is that a different class altogether? What is Auric (man/Avatar/god/other)?
Basium and Hyborem are not Avatars; only gods are. They are simply archangels. Auris is a man possessed by the spirit of a god.
How are archangels/demons affected by the compact? Would the Godslayer have any effect on them? And if the archangels acn come and go so freely, why don't all the gods send their henchmen to do the dirty work in creation?
The archangels are technically bound by the compact, but less so than the gods; they can break the compact without their god's permission or agreement (Cassiel). At least gameplay-wise, the Godslayer has no special effect against archangels. And a god sending his archangel into creation would violate the compact.

EDIT: I was ninja-posted... XD
 
Early in the Godswar, every god but Agares (and Nemed, who had given up his precept of Life to Arawn in order to father the human race and so wasn't a god anymore) began makign angels/demons to serve them, beginning with an archangel. Arawn created two archangels, the twins Basium (Life) and Gyra(Death), as he at the time controlled two spheres. Hyborem was created later on, when Agares used the Black Mirror to bring the dark side of Cernunnos to life. Cernunnos was probably the strongest archangel at the time, and went on to be the weakest of the gods when Sucellus returned as ther God of Life and gave his old precept to his old archangel. (I don't think that Sucellus made a new archangel since then though, and Basium hates Sucellus so he does not serve him. Basium wanted to be made the god of life so he could better fight demons and was outraged when this honor was given to the failed god of dandelions.)


Archangels are not the same as gods. Gods/Avatars both control and are controlled by the nature of their sphere, which overpowers their free will. Archangels also embody the aspect, but they contain elements of other aspects as well and are far more human and able to make choices that don't distort the entire nature of their spheres. I believe they would count as a seperate class, but it is possible for an archangel (or even a human) to take up a precept and become a god/avatar.



(It has however been implied that The Mithril Golem, Meshabber of Dis, and the Avatar of Wrath (who is Camulos's archangel, and the strongest of many angels who has long sought to usurp the precept of Chaos) are Avatars. Kael may need to clarify the use of the term. )


Auric is a good natured human whose divine spark was in the last life that of the god Mulcarn. As a mortal, this soul is no longer bound to his old precept and he had true free will and he develops a personality all his own. He still bears subconscious memories of his last life, which slowly surface when he grows close to things once important to him. These memories drive him to try to regain his former status, and he apparently succeeds. I'm sure his experiences as a mortal change his personality so he is not identical to the old Mulcarn, but for the most part the power of his precept destroys his new personality and his humanity.


I believe that the Compact doesn't ban archangels from entering creation, but it places great limitations on what they are allowed to do here. They can guide their followers with their wisdom, but unleashing their divine powers is severely restricted.


The power of the Godslayer comes from the god's agreement to be vulnerable to it. That may mean it applies only to those who signed the compact, so it would be useless against Nemed or Cernunnos. On the other hand, the archangels were all present there too and although they didn't personally sign it it makes sense for those who stayed by their gods to be made vulnerable to it as well. Cassiel and Basium both chose to fall (in the same way Sphenor did, only sphenor wished to help his god by fulfilling an oath that conflicted with the Compact, both of which Junil had to uphold, instead of falling to serve purposes against their gods' will.) over disagreements about the compact, so I don't think it would be of any use against them; however, when they chose to fell they chose to become mortal, so an ordinary sword could kill them.
 
The power of the Godslayer comes from the god's agreement to be vulnerable to it. That may mean it applies only to those who signed the compact, so it would be useless against Nemed or Cernunnos. On the other hand, the archangels were all present there too and although they didn't personally sign it it makes sense for those who stayed by their gods to be made vulnerable to it as well.

I would slightly disagree with this, mainly because it is implied that the godslayer only has it's power because the gods swore to be vulnerable to it. It's entirely possible that the archangels were not required to make the same oath, in which case it would have no power against them.

I guess we'll see in .34; if Basium and Hyborem are vulnerable to the Godslayer or not will answer the question.
 
Great, thanks for the quick replies. All pretty much as I thought, although thanks MC for the clarification on the consequences of an Archangel entering creation
Cassiel and Basium both chose to fall ... over disagreements about the compact, so I don't think it would be of any use against them; however, when they chose to fell they chose to become mortal, so an ordinary sword could kill them.
It just seemed to be a cheap end-around of the compact - I'm glad to hear that there are repercussions. Another question - when an Archangel enters creation, can they go back, or is it a permanent choice?

About Auric and his free will - I may be jumping the (ice) gun here, but I'd like to see a way for him to choose not to ascend into godhood and freeze creation, essentially what MC has been talking about with redemption (perhaps through an event with the Elohim (Sirona) which probably would have to be a scenario). It would make sense that a God could not make that choice, but a man could.
 
I would slightly disagree with this, mainly because it is implied that the godslayer only has it's power because the gods swore to be vulnerable to it. It's entirely possible that the archangels were not required to make the same oath, in which case it would have no power against them.

I guess we'll see in .34; if Basium and Hyborem are vulnerable to the Godslayer or not will answer the question.

Well lorewise and game mechanic wise are likely to be different, the godslayer gives the +1000% because it is one of the few ways to kill very strong units such as Auric ascended, but there would be no point making Hyborem and Basium have the avatar race so they are vulnerable to it because they can be killed by conventional means, and besides they would lose angel/demon race.

But lorewise it may harm them as they are an essentially a part of their god, so they would likely be harmed by it if their god had agreed to the compact.


The archangels can return to their god's plane when they die...
 
Well lorewise and game mechanic wise are likely to be different, the godslayer gives the +1000% because it is one of the few ways to kill very strong units such as Auric ascended, but there would be no point making Hyborem and Basium have the avatar race so they are vulnerable to it because they can be killed by conventional means, and besides they would lose angel/demon race.

But lorewise it may harm them as they are an essentially a part of their god, so they would likely be harmed by it if their god had agreed to the compact.


The archangels can return to their god's plane when they die...

Kael is fairly infamous for making the game match the lore, though. For example, I am pretty sure that's why Ice mana is so hard to come by; since Mulcarn is technically dead and the Orb of Ice is not in creation, there is no way to draw on Ice magic except by being Mulcarn's reincarnation, or drawing it from his throne of power. Note that I don't ~like~ this mechanic, but it makes sense from the lore.
 
Angels, demons, and mortals go to their god's vault upon death. In the case of angels and demons they just go there to heal and regain their "physical" form, whereas the physical component of a mortal never heals and they tend to remain there. They can still rebel and go to another vault though.

Basium actually doesn't kill his demonic victims, he just traps their souls to keep them from returning until Judgment Day when be believes The One will condemn them eternally.
 
Angels, demons, and mortals go to their god's vault upon death. In the case of angels and demons they just go there to heal and regain their "physical" form, whereas the physical component of a mortal never heals and they tend to remain there. They can still rebel and go to another vault though.

Basium actually doesn't kill demonic victims, he traps their souls to keep them from returning until Judgment Day.

In that case, shouldn't there be a mechanic by which the Mercurians and Infernal can resurrect their leaders and get their traits back? Granted, if you lose either, you'll probably be in a tight spot, but it would at least make a comeback possible.

Although probably impossible, it would be neat if, on Basium's death, all the demons he's killed respawn (but with very low health). Also, any demons he kills should be prevented from joining the Infernal as Manes...

PS - sorry for the threadjacking:mischief:
 
You can get the heroes back with Resurrection, but they don't get their traits back. Maybe they should.

What is Tomb of the Champion? There is a Shrine of the Champion, which can only be built when your hero is dead and gives a free promotion to units built in the city, but it won't help you get your hero back.

In my version I changed the trait-loss code to an <PythonPostCombatLost> function, but found that this made the Infernals not loose their traits until Hyborem's second death. Actually, that seems more appropriate.




Remember, Basium is now mortal. If he dies, he will not be able to return with a physical form like an unfallen angel and will be stuck in the vault of his god. I'm sure he expects to go back to Arawn, but I suspect that he may instead find himself in the eternal battlefield of Cammulos' hell, with his hatred for demons slowly transforming him into a demon.



In one of my version I gave him a piece of equipment representing his war hammer, which I suspected might have been used to trap the demons (although in his pedia entry he used the hammer against mortals and his bare hands against the Balor). The Malleus Vindex (avenging hammer) have a large bonus vs demons, and granted Warcry to all victorious unit's stack when it was used to kill a demon. I tried to make it so that untis killed with this weapon would not turn into Manes, but I don't think I got it to work. (I just realized that iAttacker seems to refer to the player who attacked, not the unit. I could probably make it o that units killed by the Mercurians no longer return as manes pretty easily.) I had also made it to that it forces you to declare war on any civ whose demonic units get too close to the units with the equipment, but eventually decided against that. I hadn't thought of it before, but letting AV civs who manage to take the equipment have a spell that destroys the equipment to release a demonic army could be pretty cool.
 
Firstly, I'm suprised nobody has mentioned a famous poem that may be relevant to the original discussion.

Robert Frost said:
Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.

Agares and Mulcarn would both would destroy the world as we know it; humanity would survive, barely, but progress would be impossible under Mulcarn's rule. Humanity wouldn't be dead, but it might as well be. It would the the sort of immortality that even Sidar shades would prefer to avoid. While Mulcarn may be the best god to stop Agares from destroying the world, would it really be any better locked in what would likely be an eternal Age of Ice? If anybody would make the same mistake twice, it would be Mulcarn... but I doubt it.
(Personally, I would prefer Mulcarn's rule over Agares. Then again, in most things, I prefer ice over fire; metaphorically, at any rate.)
 
I do not know if anyone read the books, but there is a series of books which among other center around a military unit in a fantasy world - the unit called 'the bridgeburners'. The got the name after crossing the bridge towards an enemy army and burning the bridge behind them, digging down on the other side of the river with the enemy in front and the river to their backs. Win or die..

Here an ancient race that were very 'mulcarn' oriented created glaciers and drew upon winter to hold and reign in their foes, some that were very 'evil'. Before I even had a campaign with an really evil witch of ice, similar to the Narnia story. But after that I kind of leaned towards that ice, glaciers and similar is very 'stasis', 'preventing', 'holding'.

The idea of a somewhat benevolent force simply icing down everything to stop a powerful evil is very compelling.
 
What is Tomb of the Champion? There is a Shrine of the Champion, which can only be built when your hero is dead and gives a free promotion to units built in the city, but it won't help you get your hero back.

As you can clearly see by my comment that I wasn't sure what it was called, but from the impression I had you had to have the shrine to resurrect a hero. Once again never used either :) so take anything I say with a grain of salt. (in fact anything I say can be suspect, I hoard a good bit of facts just never the full story. Humm maybe I should be a politician)
 
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