Multi is very unbalanced even with mods : Critics and propositions

[Jojo_Fr]

Hello,

This critis is coupled with propositions so it is productive.

I have a solide experience of the Multiplayer in Civ IV BtS, of the solo playing in FFH2 and few of this mod (like Erebus in the Balance or Master of Mana) and a begineer experience of the Multiplayer in Erebus in the Balance, ETMP (a modmod for EitB) and Master of Mana.


My global opinion is : the changements bringed by the modsmods are often goods but totally ignore the worst overpowered things of the game. I doubt, wich is perhaps an arrogance, but I doubt that the creators of this mods have really got a true experience of competitive multiplayer game.

The mains overpowered things which i can affirm from now are :

1. The super speed of fast units and the divine Raider trait

- Totally overpowered : No defense vs that, specially with cavalery off course. Compare the situation with BtS, which is very balanced : In BtS the quickest land unit have speed 2, even the modern tank. With an additionnal, you can have speed 3, and with combat 5 (which is hard to obtain because experience is low to obtain compared to FFH2) you can have the commando promotion, to use ennemy road. As you see, it is exceptionnal units, nearly never use in multiplayer.

Only the sea unit can have speed move promotions, and only the air unit can move faster (but cannot take town...).

In FFH2 on any mod (I guess), you have :

- Cavalery who have movement 3, so they can come in your territory, pillage, and back. Or just take workers or town. You can bring this speed to 4 if you have just and adept with Body magic, which is easy to have with Civilization who have it (for exemple the Calabim).

- And the Hippis, have units who have all movement 4 naturally... and can up it to 5 with their world spell...

- When you have Horseback, you can buy promotion Move 2 for infantery and Move 3 and 4 for cavalery and I guess for Scout units...

- AND the worst joke of this picture, is the Raider traits. With that, there is no defense, you are just totally raped. :shhh:
Just with 3 speed, a normal cavalery, you can move 6, or maybe just 5 squares. It is suffisant to take workers, pillages and back, or take a town off course. Absolutely nothing can be done, the worst is when the ennemy make this move at 00:00 of the timer. You have no time to move your units. So the ennemy can have doule movement, so double 6 speed... 12 squares movements.

- I really dont understand how the people who made modmod for take FFH2 to a multi experience could let this trait alive.

2. The magic hidding

- Furtivity of animals can be seen with recons units like hunter, so it is not too powerfull. But magic furtivity (I dont speak about Invisibility) can be see by very few units, and very late units, like the Elite marskmen (I dont remember his name).

- So, you have a faculty, which can be use with Assassin for exemple, or the Sidar Hero. You can use it when you want, you can move in the ennemy territory where you want (especially with Raider trait), you can kill workers, take city etc. So, to counter that, you need to be Empyrean (due to ratha unit who can see magic hidding), or have Elite marksmen (in each city approximately lol), or have the Perfect Sight promotion which need Combat 1, Combat 2, Increased 2, Increased View 2 and Perfect Sight (unpossible to have unless to have Vampire of very experienced unit).

3. The Kuriotates

Interesting civ but too strong due to Centaurs. So, Centaurs :

- Don't need any ressource, any bulding, but cost 60 and not 40 hammers (I guess). (Only the hippus can make this due to their ressource palace).

- Can have + 1 speed for free any turn, for i spall penaly of strenght the turn after (I dont remember how much, -1 perhaps). No other civ have this.

- The worst of all their advantages : they KEEP their bonus defense, fortifications etc. like the infantery units. Event the hippus have not this advantage. So, the Kuriotates, which are designed to be a protective, I mean, not an imperialistc civilization, have the most powerfull attacker/defender/pillager units of the Creation. They can defend any of their Three city with centaurs who can run into one of their in one turn.

4. The attack spells

- Here I am not sure of my critic, but I got the impression that there is magic attack who are too powerfull. And when I say powerful, I mean : no defense vs it.

- Take the exemple of fireball : You can use it with armurite fire bowman one per turn (two per turns if you have some mage but it is not easy !). The fireball have two movement speed, which it is ok and tactically intersting. The thinkgs I don't think balanced are : the fireball can pillages the improvements (if a squeleton is too stupid to do it, why a fireball could do that ?!), and can attack units without defense possible. I mean : you should be able to prevent a thing to come to you and attack you without defense. I'll explain proposition after.

- Now take another exemple : I have not enough experience of the game in multi in his aspect of magic combat, but I got impression that magic have a too big MASS area of attack. For exemple : the Slow spell of the Frost, make -1 to speed of all ennemy unit in any square adjacent I guess (or even on one only but it does matter). So, you can, with one, two adepts, totally block and army (except the scout or cavalery) on your territory, and you can do it every turn. There is magical defense, like the Dispell Spell, but it need Metamagic (a node rarely taked and I guess only the Armurites have it on their palace) and Canalization II (mages).

So it is too strong, and too hard to defend versus this. Things must be changed.

5. The assassin faculty

- The guard promotion is strong but nearly only the Bannor have it. So, usally you can lost all your adept/mages/priests with few units who totally destroy your strategy of attack, and let you very fragile. Something must do vs that.

6. The dived soul of the sidars

- Their faculty is too strong for attacking : it gives you 2 free movements and you can teleport after natural barrier. Moreover I dont think this feat well with the powerfull trait of sidar, the shades, and their defensive way of life.

7. The power of recon units

- Recons units are too strong in defensive purpose. They are quicker than infantery and have the same fortification bonus. It is not balanced and not their logical function (a hunter can defend land but not town).



The main critics are done now I need to propose !

1. The super speed of fast units and the divine Raider trait

- Replace Raider faculty (commando) by auto pillages (with a possibility to desactivate on each unit), +100 % of gold earned, and a small heal for each things destroyed (excluding roads, but if not possible, including road). By small healing, I mean : 1 point of heal per thing pillaged. If too hard to do, dont add this but replace by one free attack promotion for every units.

- All land units, recon units or mounted units, go from 3 or 4 speed, to 2 speed, as in civ IV. Centaurs lost their quickness faculty. Only the Hippus Keep 3 speed for their mounted units, and 4 speed with their world spell. Dont forget that, with an adept with hast, you can obtain speed 3 (moreover, with Arcane trait, adept have speed 2, which permit them to follow cavalery :jive.

- Last things : note that forester 2, elves or dwarven promotion you can walk with two speed in forest or hills. It looks normal and you have to cut forest or construct fortress on your hills if you cant to avoid that ! Note : I propose to let the elves be able to cut their forest for this strategic problem !

2. The magic hidding

- If the hunter or even scout I guess can see the animal hidding, the adept should be able to see it too. To see magic unit you need an adept, the adept (or mages etc.) have only two squares of view, it is not much and ennemy can sneak if your territory. So, just put and adept in your front city or in strategic position, and you could see hidding units (not invisible units which need the Perfect sight promotion or the Ratha, oro ther complicated way I dont mind in my opinion).

3. The Kuriotates

- Speed go to 2, as all units, and their off course lost their defensive bonus.

4. The attack spells

- Fireballs, meteors or others destructive non sentiant things must mot be able to pillage. Any canalysation I invocations must not be able too. But all canalysation two alive, golem or undead things, must be able (it is an intersting force of the invocator strategy).

- No more totally massive spells for all unbeff spell (buffing or protecting must be keeped massive I think). The slow effect for exemple, can only strike 6 units of the pack (The mechanism can work as I guess the Fireball works : it strike the six most powerfull units, or if it is possible six random units). So with that, with enought adept, you can block a part or totally a pack in your territory or in city. 6 units for every canlisation 1 or 2, and ALL units for any unbuff spell (canalisation 1 2 and 3) use by Archmages units, because archmages are hyperpowerfull and rare to obtain ! If it is too complicated to do, just give it to canalisation 3 spells.

5. The assassin faculty

- Create a new unit : the Guardsman (or another better name) for every civ, obtain with Code of Laws, which have Guard promotion for free, a strenght of 4 but 100 % vs the assassins. (Assassins have 5/3 + 1 poison). Cost of creation : 60 hammers. Barrack required.

6. The dived soul of the sidars

- Supress the divided soul faculty and replace it with Free Spiritual Guide and a special Evasion promotion. An evasion spell, who need one TWO turns to be cast. You use it and two turn after, you are teleport to capital (You cannot move when you have used the spells). Logical and perfect for the strategy of this civilization. You can go attack ennemy, same if you lost, you know you ll can flee.

- Moreover, ill add this but it just a proposition : any sidar units in their territory have free spiritual guide promotion, but lost it outside border (not the Divided Soul who always have it).

7. The power of recon units

- Give -1 of defensive point of all hunter units, -2 to all more advanced recon units (not assassin they have already 3 at defense), and -20 % city combat strenght to all recon unit (not in the recon unit who ever have this kind of malus). As it, they can defend city but archers/infantey still stay better (but slower to come).



Conclusion :

I would like to see a modder who applicate these modifications, and permit us to have a multigame more balanced on points really very important ! I have posted this message on RealmsBoyond too : http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthread.php?tid=5906

And MP me if you want to play a game with any mods for FFH2 if you want.

 

[Tasunke]

a few thoughts on the game.

1. Training Yard building (no tech required) +1 happy w/ nationhood as normal

allows for Axes, Archers, and Horsemen.

part of this is to allow the martial lines more flexibility (like making Archers more worthwhile/ only needing the tech for access), but also to make Recon somewhat weaker. For axes, archers, or horse you need just one building. but for priests, mages, and hunters you need further separate building. Part of the benefit of Martial line I think

Now, for tier 3, (horse archers, champions, longbows) we could either have them tied to the old buildings (archery yard, barracks, stables), OR we could just tie them to the Training Yard as well. I would almost be inclined to do the latter to be honest.

Still, we shouldn't forget those builings ....

Old training yard essentially 'becomes' the Barracks in a sense. That sense is that it is the melee focus building.

Barracks gives +2 melee exp (and perhaps +10% heal rate for units in the city)

Archery Yard gives +2 archery exp and +10% defense in the city

Stables gives +2 mounted exp and +1 trade route.

Due to this functionality, I think T3 units should be buildable just with Training yard as well. Hell, maybe even T4 ^_^

After all, that should be the strength of the martial lines, which usually get outshined by summons and such. (yes I know, not for Orcs with their Ogres, but still )

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now, after all of that .... you have Horses at 60 hammers, archers at 45, axes at 45, and hunters with a separate building at 60.

Now it seems, to me, that all you need is to tweak the hunter so that it gives -20% city strength rather than -20% city attack. Maybe add Woodsman1 and Guerilla1 as compensation? having Hunters defend natural terrain more easily sounds interesting to me (from a flavor perspective). After all, I know balance is meant strictly for balance sake, but what is a game without flavor? If adding such promos to hunter is too strong, then perhaps we find something else. But I like that proposition. Primary question, Would this step on the toes of Fawns? Well, perhaps not, since Fawns have no city attack malus. One way to make up for that, imho, is to reduce FAWN specific defense by 1. So fawns are 4/3, which makes sense for a unit that will upgrade into 8/4.

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Now, I am uncertain about completely changing the moves paradigm, such as to make mounted units 2 move .. but I certainly think formation1 should be taken earlier, after combat1 rather than combat2. comes too late.

Also, perhaps simply Mobility1 should b harder to come by? Perhaps requiring combat 2 ...

This could possibly make aggressive too strong, which, while underutilized, does compound certain problems (such as shock1 fawns out of the gate with Volanna). Therefore I would propose that Aggressive doesn't give combat 1, but gives a separate promotion which gives +20% strength. Its an early game nerf, but it also helps hero units to become a bit more powerful than they could get without the trait. I think it makes sense and it makes it easier to mod/evaluate/play the game without unintended consequences.

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another thing I have thought, at least a bit, is to have Sinister give Flanking and Drill 1 rather than 1 attack, and for Dextrous to give mobility1, and perhaps soemthing else (like woodsman1) to archer units instead of 1 attack. The dextrous change couldn't happen unless archers were changed, but the sinister change could happen at any time.

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If we are talking true balance changes, then Lanun Economy and Vampire economy (and possibly Elven economy) need a bit of a nerf. Elves I can almost see because their workers are slower and it takes a bit longer to get running .... and another way to nerf them is to make everyone else a bit more adaptable (such as earlier forest chops, and better late game towns exlusively non elven or at least non-fol) ... and I have done some steps to address this in my own mod.

In my mod, everyone has access to the '+1 food' on coastline. Lanun still get a relatively extra food on oceans however. This makes Oceans at about Aristofarm level, at least before Shipyards. I feel that this is fair tbh, as it makes ocean actually desirable yet not completely OP because its quite similar to the average player's farm.

Lanun also get a bit of a nerf in that Pirate Coves are just 1/2/3/3/3 (yes I added two extra levels) until you start getting your techs rolling. By the late game, a Pirate Cove/ Pirate Town is about the same as it once was, (final level exactly the same late-game).

I would like to make some positive changes to the Lanun however. One such change is that Boarding parties went from 5 str to 6 str and can be built with Trianing yards instead of sea havens. This allows for a more land based lanun to be possible. Giving the Lanun a civtrait that gives bounty hunter to all naval units would also be nice, and adding boarding promotion to pirates to allow ship capture by pirates would be a nice and flavorful addition to their naval UU. In addition, I know Boarding parties start with amphibious, but allowing Sea Havens to give free amphibious to new units would really make you want to build your invasion force along the coast anyways ^_^ (and it would reintroduce the decision the creators wanted of choosing between invasion force and moar boats in your coastal cities). -> a few of these changes I haven't added yet but plan to. Would also make continent battles more interesting because Lanun are no longer a 'must have' for water ... instead they are a better choice for pure econ/water, but if you remotely have an idea of a different strat then you can at least 'compete' with the Lanun on a relatively fair footing.

I'd totally like to see a mod where you play Continents or Islands and not everyone picks Lanun


As far as elven economy, primarily having earlier forest chops will do it, imho. It makes forests relatively useful for everyone. Now, you don't want this to be 'too' good, so you drastically reduce chop hammers initally ... but then with Mining the hammers go to normal levels.

Also, giving +50% of 'normal' chop to Smelting rather than Archery makes more sense imho. Lumbermills can still go with archery I suppose, but certainly subject to potential change

Calabim though? Unless there is an easy way to bring unhappy to give +0.5 hammer rather than +1 hammer, I don't really know. Perhaps the gov manor could give a fixed amount of hammers .... although that would be biased towards young cities. You could make it a +50% hammers addition or something (perhaps a bit weaker), but again that would be better for mine heavy cities. The idea of governors manner is to take hammer low cities and to give them a bit of production. I guess the final choice would be like +2 hammers and +25% production ... which is a combo of discrete and continuous bonus, but weaker than original. Haven't even begun to think of full ramifications for this, but it could be huge.

Also, if one is to try and adress fireballs, they should address spectre spam as well. Summons like Spectres and Fireballs should not be allowed to pillage, although I didn't think fireballs could. I understand the reason behind skeletons not pillaging (as a lair spawn if for no other reason), but perhaps allowing pillage would be to strong. Given its upkeep costs however ... perhaps this is a needed boost to skeletons (well .... death1 doesn't need a boost but still, its not the most powerful, just most powerful for level 1 spells0.

Spectre affinity too ... should be +0.5 str per mana instead of +1 (if possible). +1 is just too easy to get out of hand in a game like FFH/ Civ IV where 1 str can make a huge difference. Definitely not a linear situation. Perhaps it is due to the 100 HP/ multiple combat/ combat until one dies aspect. If combat only lasted one or two rounds, and didn't last until someone died, the game might get a hell of a lot more interesting.

Not sure how to change that, but if possible, would definitely be worth it. Might even make summons slightly less useful, and isn't summoning one of the more OP things in the game?

Lastly we should look at the Vampires themselves. Is death2 really necessary on a vampire? The original vampire just had a damage spell instead of a summon spell. It however did not have a damage cap and therefore was just as insanely broken as every spell without a damage cap (back in light/fire early days iirc). Perhaps the answer is to only give them buff/debuff spells ... in order to help their army. A unit that is strong but not a replacement mage. Perhaps reduce hammers from 180 to 120 in order to acknowledge this change in the meta. That and/ or to add march to vampires for free :3

That way Vamps are what they were meant to be ... badass loners with a tendency to lead armies ... rather than some egalitarian society where everyone lives together and summons spectres. I could almost say the same for firebows and blasting golems ... but they do not have alternative functionality, unlike the diverse vampire.

There is the problem however where typically a firebow stack defeats an equally sized vampire stack. Of course, vampire stacks tend to be much larger than firebow stacks due to superior Gov manor production

It is part of a larger issue with magic .... but yes I feel that perhaps vampires could still defeat firebows without the aid of us modders. I have done so myself, but it would just require a bit of testing I think. to make sure that my victories were not just a byproduct of external factors.

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I could see giving melee permanently 1 speed (other than with haste) and all 'fast' movers to 2 speed ... perhaps. Its an interesting thought.

Offhand I could perhaps momentarily accept this and then only allow mobility promotions for cavalry. In that way Cavalry could reach a max of 4 speed but sacrifice 2 promotions to do so. Another choice is to nerf horselord to equal either +10% movement or nothing at all, give it as a hippus racial, and allow all hippus units access to mobility 1 and deny the rest. This would go parallel with destroying the mobility 2 promotion of coures. Spiritual and Arcane would still get 2 move casters though.

Another option to make hippus unique rather than giving them access to 3 movers (assuming 2 becomes max withut magic), is to have horselord give +10% withdrawal and +1 strike ... rather than +1 movement +10% withdrawal. The downside is that its not necessarily a 'game-winning' civ ... it just happens to have a *very* strong rush. And by rush I really just mean mid-game functionality here. Same with Kuriotates and Sidar really.

My mod did quite buff sidar, at least economically, by giving it a wider array of leaders and a free +2 shade GPP in the palace. This guarantees that 1) the early pacifism civic won't get wasted, and 2) that the Sidar get at least one shade before true battles commence.

also, I changed starting civics so that only those with passive GPP from capital start with Pacifism (Grigori/Sidar). I almost gave +2 priest GPP natural for Elohim palace, but then decided against it.

Perhaps giving Sidar recon the escape spell rather than the divided soul spell could be more appropriate. I disagree with it needing to take 2 turns, because two turns is incredibly long during a tough battle. Divided soul is within the span of one turn (and designed initially, I think, to both help sidar pass through mountains and to get out of dodge after an attack), so why not escape as well? Maybe it can't be cast unless no enemy units nearby, so would need to slightly retreat in order to cast? ^_^

Anyways, to help with the loss of Divided souls ... the sidar recon could also be allowed to move on impassable terrain (such as mountains). Would not affect their 'raw' mobility, but would ehance their defensive flavor while having comparable functionality to divided soul within some functions (like moving over mountains and at least thin mountain ranges). One nerf effect beyond just the maximum speed however would be that the Sidar recon could no longer 'puddle jump'. I wouldn't mind a certain version of divided soul only being allowed if on a tile next to the water. Perhaps exploitable, but better than nothing ^_^

another alternative would be to have the divided souls 'permanent' ... but take a while to summon. So it wouldn't extend your movement really (your overland movement would be as fast as the soul could move, since no longer spammable), but it would greatly increase its functionality ^_^

This would make it more ... interesting. Perhaps less predictable, but also less 'powerful' in a speed sort of sense. One thing I think Jomo would perhaps Critique is that once again you would have no true defense against it. Perhaps this is true ... one Con to doing it this way (even if it would be certainly quite fun )

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On Guardsmen and Spearmen. It is interesting that you mention that because the original FFH mod (Fire) did have some of those unit types. now GRANTED! It was as a whole even less balanced than it is now but! it did have spearmen and it did have guardsmen so at least at one point those ideas were well and alive within the Developers' minds.

I think Guardsmen yes perhaps either 3 +1 copper or 4 str, with guardsman promo and 100% vs assassins. I disagree on the cost though. Cost should be 120 just like assassins. Typically the guardsmen would kill more efficiently than a 1 for 1 trade, and assassins are quite specialist/ expensive, so I see no reason for the counter to be less specialist/ expensive.

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As far as spearmen however ... you have two primary tiers to look at. Horses at 4 str 60 hammers, and Horse archers at 6 str 120 hammers. Compare to axes at 5* str 45 hammers and Champions at 8* str 120 hammers. The key of course is movement. Now, if all FFH mounted were only 2 move we wouldn't even be haivng tihs discussion imho ... spears simply wouldn't be needed. (In BTS I think chariots and axes were fairly similarly priced, with maybe chariots even a bit cheaper. I really have no idea but ... prices were definitely lower in general across the board in BTS iirc. But of course such units were only used in the very early of the game rather than well into mid and late game).

Therefore Spearmen are a bit more tricky I think. My initial thought is perhaps 4 str (no metal usage) and +50% vs mounted. 45 hammers (same as axeman). However ... I would likely prefer to just make Formation1 easier to get to.

Another way of making Archers more relevant ofc is to make cover *harder* to get to. These two changes could see a bit more balance in the martial lines perhaps. That included with the 'training yard takes all comers' change. Either could work well indepdnently of course, but I think they work best together.

One final thing though. Specialty units like Guardsman and Spearmen should require the Barracks rather than the training yard. Their special nature requires a separate (if similar) building. Somewhat like Starcraft 2 xD

 

[Calavente]

well, I disagree on most.
not on what is unba, but on solutions.
mobility is a HUGE balancing point.
-it balances recon vs melee : + 1 move, -25%city attack, no metal promotion.
-it balances horse vs recon : +1 move, less str (HA is 6 vs ranger 7+poison blade)
-it balances living units vs unliving (stronger golem, strong catapult, strong undeads/demons/angels units that are immune to poison / unholy /death/holy damage....Etc) : "weaker" living can get haste, the other cannot.

the issue is only that there are few COUNTERs against mobility.
-no ZOC on forts /cities.
-walking on any improved tile could cost 2 move ... (you can't barge through a plantation) : 2 move to get on tile, 1 move to pillage : 3 moves taken.
-...Etc
-few "anti-withdrawal promotion" : flanking I or II promo could give a "no withdrawal"
-slow could create "temporary-snow-terrain" /blizzard effect : increase all terrain cost by +1 ; terrain / blizzard disappear in 1turn.... : it would act as a "preventive" spell; being more efficient,

IMO if you "balance" HA OPness by reducing all move by 1 ... and forgoeing mobility 1 : it would only increase the OPness of HA (still 5 move : 2+1(mob1)+1(mob2)+1(haste)) vs melee 2 move (1+1haste):
at the moment the equilibrium is : 6 vs 3.
and then you'll have to balance all the other perks that were balanced by giving/ or taking movement points...

however I agree on raider : free commando is a bit too much, esp on high mobility units ... on melee units it is nice however ...
idea :
raider :
-+5%heal while moving
-+1mvt / +10%withdrawal / -15% attack str
-+50% (or +100%) pillage

--> effect : not as strong as a commando, (+1mov instead of double or triple or more moves)
-->however : better ability to survive in ennemy territory : +1 mvt, +10%withdraw, +5%heal in ennemy land
--> countra : less attack str : pillager/raiders are not city-takers

I'll make a more "constructed" response later . brb

 

[EvaND]

Im all new here, only playing for some months and only as the Svarts (in sp), but id like to share some thoughts:
Svarts take no colateral whatsoever, unless they have a mana node around, which is not always the case. They dont even get the berserker end game, tho i guess by then, they wud either be dead (no nodes), or have magical colateral, so thats fine.
Their only strength (beside magic ofc) is the recon units and maybe horses, especially if they have no mana, in other words, mobility. Nerfing the recon will take away most of their strength. And as Calavante mentioned, recon get no metal and a city attack penalty, already nicely balanced IMHO.
So for Svarts the commando promo is absolutelly essential IMO, unless they are played defensively. But for Tasunke, oh well, comando is a killer ill have to agree, but not for Amalanchier or Decius i might say, u can counter those guys with enough troops and field tacticks. So raiders trait+horselord is the true issue here i think.
As for the elven economy, it takes AGES to build in forests, not to mention the ancient ones which take AN ETERNITY, if you have more than 5-7 cities, you either need an army of workers (not affordable), or you are well at mid-game till you have your infrastracture done. If the elves start without a single commerse tile (ie not forested river or something), even with a silk around, they are still behind in teck for several turns, due to their slow working times and no comerce whatsoever. The distinct difference from other civs in tecking shows up rly late, and i believe by then its more than fair for them to have a fast teck pace, they deserve it after all the pain!
Ofc, as ive already said, im still a noob, learning the game. And ive learned a whole lot from your "conversasions" in the forum, i hope i dont intrude very much

 

[Kiech]

I do have to say that I miss spearmen...I have been thinking: unlock spearmen with hunting and a training yard (new version), make them 3/3 that can use bronze/iron for 60h and give them 50% v horses. Upgrade to pikemen who are available after Smelting 5/5 +100 v horses and all weapon types, and finally harbinger 8/8 unlocked with mithril working, national unit/upgrade only +100 v horses, homeland-like promotion, all weapon types.

 

[Tschuggi]

I do have to say that I miss spearmen...I have been thinking: unlock spearmen with hunting and a training yard (new version), make them 3/3 that can use bronze/iron for 60h and give them 50% v horses. Upgrade to pikemen who are available after Smelting 5/5 +100 v horses and all weapon types, and finally harbinger 8/8 unlocked with mithril working, national unit/upgrade only +100 v horses, homeland-like promotion, all weapon types.

iirc, Orbis did this...

 

[Tasunke]

I have thought of a spear that is 4 str +50% vs mounted -50% vs melee, (@ Hunting)

and then Pikeman

which is 4 str, but no melee penalty, can use metal weapons (at least up to iron), and have +100% vs mounted.

This makes spear as 2 vs melee, 4 vs other, and 6 vs mounted (60 hammers)

while pike is 4-6 vs melee, 4-6 vs other, and 8 - 12 vs mounted (120 hammers)

 

[Kiech]

-50% melee is too burdensome. Make the spear a 3/3 that can use copper/iron. That way its better than a warrior, but allows the axes and swords to shine.

 

[sunbeam]

It sounds like you guys are reinventing the Orbis mod.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

COmmando isn't overpowered - its powerful, but just means you should manage your roads.
As someone posted at RB, one of the things that makes ffh different and focuses one down the lines better is that there is no counter units - armies are intended to be composed primarily of one unit class, and there is no spearmen-esque unit because of this.

 

[Calavente]

I agree partially with Qgqqqqq
(with the "counter thingy".
in original fire FFH there were almost double units types, with spearmen, pikemen and shield wall (or was it wall of shield?) it was a really interesting construction, in the same way that arcane line was separated into summoner -> sorcerer (or vice-versa) and mage->archmage. that was however removed and streamlined into the version we know now.
iirc it was for balance reasons, and because spears/pikes did not have a real use.

however I disagree with the "you have to manage your roads" comment.
roads are un-manageable, unless you allow crossroads only in cities and forts. However you need to link those resources. so this doesn't really work well.
and you cannot pillage your roads... (however in RL people could at least sabotage their bridges !!!)

I'd prefer have some ZoC on forts and cities.
with those, commando might become balanced.

for melee, commando is balanced: 2-9 movement max (9 with mob1, haste and engineering). however for horsies it is not balanced : minimal 6, generaly not fewer than 8, and up to 18 (21 for horselord mob2 hasted units)!!!!
8 is like 9, it is strong. and while it is manageable after engineering (mid-late game, you yourself have some units, early-mid game, without engineering, it becomes really OP.... and I'm not even speaking about those 21 !!!)

compare this with the mithril golem 1 move (2max) even in its own territory !!! don't get me strated on how this supposed avatar of Kilmorph is so sub par !!

commando melee are not awful
commando recon neither (due to the fact that they can't pillage and have reduced city attack, they are less a nuisance, save for assassin... but those SHOULD be a nuisance)

Commando horses need a counter. and that counter is NOT spears !! the issue is not with horses, but with commando.
the only way I can see it is through :
-road pillaging (at least)
-ZoC
-spells that counter commando or roads for 1+ turns.
-forts (and some other improvements) take all movement to go through ... ?

 

[Qgqqqqq]

We're talking mp right? (This is a significant diversion but I think all of these discussions should have a multiplayer premis - anything can beat the ai, and (for example) MNAI luchuirp are weak because of their poor chances in a equal multiplayer position. But that's a discussion for another day.)

In which case we need to remember that the true fight is over the border - reference again the rb pitboss I linked (somewhere? I think it was the archer thread) - in such a pro multiplayer embodiment the challenge is overcoming the opponents border so as to crack them like an egg.
Once again, theory crafting, but once one has a advantage in FFH, particularly militarily, it snowball big time.
Even with non commando units one can get at least 3 tiles into their borders - I'll say 4 though as a non mage non recon non horse stack is rare.
Within 4 tiles of pretty much any FFH border there will be an enemy city to fight over. and it is those outer cities that are the nucleus of the defence - once they're lost the inner ones are exposed and easy pickings (if this is not the case then you're keeping too much of an army back and deserve the city raze you'll get).
Thus once you've broken through the outer defences you're able to take it anyway - commando just makes for better tactics and a slicker knife to drive home.

This is presuming that these cities "cap" your road network and that you've made sure not to extend them too far, and (yes I definitely agree about road pillaging) tbh its not that hard to design that way consider this:

Spoiler :

Turn 128. My plan to finally confront GreyWolf was foiled. First of all, he's moved his forces here:

Second, I didn't have as much mobility as I thought I would. (Didn't realize workers could not be hasted.)
Oh well; Evermore lives another turn.

Also as a spectator, illusionary kithra has easily been the most entertaining unit this game.

Yes, he's definitely being nominated for MVP. It was very tempting to switch to Esus a few turns ago:
I've got a great merchant to build the Nox Noctis, sorcery for Gibbon, and I can quickly tech Guilds to upgrade some of my awesome assassins to Shadows. But Kithra + mirror is just too awesome, especially with engineering (potential range of 30 tiles).
For example, this turn, Illusionary Kithra redlined GreyWolf's best Fyrdwell (allowing a griffon to kill another Fyrdwell at 88% odds), pillaged a hamlet, and ended turn in a position which will again prevent GreyWolf from being able to counterattack:

The upside of GreyWolf pulling his forces out of Evermore is that it let me build my new city in peace:

At this point, trade route income is so good that a new size 1 city actually pays for itself immediately (total income went up 5gpt).

Piled most of my forces into the new city:

Next turn I'll raze Evermore one way or another. Either GreyWolf moves his Fyrdwell back to defend and I commit a lot of troops, or he leaves a skeletal garrison and I do it with a handful of fawns. Either way, those forces are in a position to move quickly on Mardoc: our NAP will only last another two turns.

Got my floating eyes this turn, and did flyovers of GreyWolf and Mardoc. Didn't see their whole territory, but it gave me a pretty good idea of what they've got. GreyWolf has his Fyrdwell stack, and a handful of other units in White Horse (including Gilden). Mardoc's got basically nothing, or at least nothing visible:

For comparison:

Of course, those demos I showed you last turn were "cooked": I was in a golden age, running 100% science researching a tech for which I had four prereqs. Here's a more honest depiction of the situation:

As for graphs... which ones do you want to see? Here's power:

Okay sorry for the long post, I feel lazy today.
Anyway as you'll notice the war zone still doesn't have any resources improved or roads built (in this case because a specific unit will use them rather then an army, but the point stands).
If you come to the pitboss threads you'll see similar setups, most notably
SPOILERS FOR MARDOC/THOTH THREAD ONLY

Spoiler :

The current conflict over the disputed city both sides are being very careful with their roads.

Most importantly though it might be missed in that spoiler, you'll see the units defending a specific tile of road so as to prevent them getting onto the network.
Basically I think this shows that commando, while powerful, *isn't* pverbalanced, it just means you need to be more careful and considered about them.
Now to deal with your selected changes:
ZoC: no. Really hate this idea as it completely changes it, I'll lump this in with the improvement that costs full speed to go through - you already have one. Its called a fortified unit
Seriously though, the only problem with this is that it could cost more units defending then they have attacking to defend different entrances, but id say this disappears with either careful planning or road pillaging.
If youhave resources exposed then it really just depends on wether you can afford too lose it or the units to defend it more - remember that mounted generally have lower strength and are more likely to die against the defences.
road pillaging: agree with this but can I suggest that it cost the improvement built on? This makes it more strategic.
ZoC: no. just no. I really follow this idea

 

[Calavente]

vs fortified unit : no !
a fortified unit costs 1 full turn ... for only as many units as needed to take it down. the other units pass freely. so units are no "counter" to commando.

on ZoC... (or at least "auto-fire"...).

you shouldn't be able to pass near a defended fort without fear or without needing to attack it first.

 

[Kiech]

What if, instead of zone control, forts forced the enemy to slow down when passing by like the marsh/desert?

Very interesting point on how roads should be setup in MP, Q.

 

[Tasunke]

In elemental, units ran out of movement when they became adjacent to an enemy unit. Why not in Civ? Hard to code, yes, but that would automatically extrapolate to any city with any sort of garrison. Obviously forts by themselves would have no effect, but garrisoned forts on the other hand ...

 

[Kiech]

That sounds neat. I wonder if you can apply that to archers only?

 

[Qgqqqqq]

I was talking with that in mind calavante
The point is that if they can get past your army sited there then they can kill you anyway, and if you don't have you're army protecting the entrance then you've built too many roads and can't defend it.
I didn't mean that one unit stops an army

 

[Calavente]

well, them being able to kill your "choke point stack" doesnt mean they could necessarily take you down.

taking down a city with +50% defense (wall, wall of stone, culture) is harder than kill a stack of units that are out of a city.

in the battle you linked, one Kithria was a powerful illusion 8str + many % promo.. thus gaining its whole life back after each combat. that's like a 100 stack unit (when the ennemy has only weaker units)

not everybody can get illusions this powerful. with only your original Kithria.. he would have killed her.. non-withstanding the "chockpoint".

so your "counter" to commando is : "kill them" .

well .. that's no counter to me.

however I wouldn't care if commando was limited to level 6+ units. However the issue is with this promotion being given for free to level 1 units with the raider trait.

I'd rather have a counter of sort... or a more re-oriented raider

 

[Qgqqqqq]

No my counter to commando Is "stop them."
I didn't mean that battle as an example for what those stacks are like, but the idea of fortifying against an invasion and protecting the road network.
The point is that there is no prebuilt access to the network so only horsemen can get here anyway - and horses are weaker then normal units.
You would also build a fort on that tile .

 

[Tasunke]

forts need a bit of a boost imho. Plus I keep getting annoyed by seeing foreign trade doubling the speed of fort growth

(as in, just make it 1 tier of fort, like in BTS)

---> Is it possible to make it so that boats can pass through forts? I think it was possible in BTS ... if I choose 'Act as City' will it be possible in FFH? Or are more changes required?

I guess I could always use trial and error