Music race

I agree that we need to move fast in a response. I have jotted something down- by no means do I think it perfect nor complete. But it's a start.

Greeting to our allies, the members of the ETTT,

Recently, the integrity of the Continuum has come under siege by CDZ. Quatronia feels the need to right a number of wrongs presented in CDZ's letter.

However Quatronia decided to aggressively settle next to Spamville with the cities of Resonance and Asymptote. The usefulness of either of these cities apart from culturally crowding Spamville is marginal at best. Quatronia specifically ignored settling better land that was closer to them, clearly instigating the current situation between two teams that should be behaving as allies, by settling extremely agressively towards one of our cities.
We did not settle aggressively settle towards Spamville. Asymptote grants us control of the cape and has three resources within its borders. Resonance has even greater terrain. Both of these cities were planned settlements before the first city was even settled on the petal. Two great cities, one very strategic- hardly aggressive, hardly marginal at all.

Now it is important to note that up to this point at no time had Quatronia sought to discuss the settlement of our common peninsula... So in response to their aggressive settling against Spamville we settled ereh rO, Quatronia then settled Pulsar Plateau.
We were in the process of writing a message regarding splitting the petal. Then CDZ settled ereh rO. This was a clear encroachment on our territory. Look across the sea from ereh rO, and what does one see? Continuum. We believe CDZ would be similarly upset should we have had settled Or here first. A very nice city in your first-ring location, snatched up by a greedy ally? This is behavior unbecoming of an ally.

...nor did they ever express disappointment at not having the stone. They never asked if we would be willing to come to any arrangements with regards to trading the stone to them. All of these actions which one would expect from an ally were never explored by them.
We never once mentioned stone, nor do we care about it. We aren't sure why this was included in the original- hopefully it wasn't outside speculation added in. Quatronia does not care about the stone.

It was only sometime after this that they came to us and ridiculously demanded we exchanged ereh rO for a settler they would gift us in return...
We offered to trade a city for a city- ereh rO for a settler. This would be a fair way to resolve the situation- we get what should be ours and CDZ can settle another city on their side. Surely if this was ridiculous, we would get a counteroffer? CDZ's reply was hardly friendly, nor did it contain any hint of a counteroffer.

...because ereh Or was "in their sphere of influence", whilst grossly overlooking the fact that the first city they settled on the peninsula was "in CDZ's sphere of influence". This we found inadequate compensation for our city so they went ahead and settled Cygous.
Both Resonance and Asymptote are not in CDZ's sphere of influence. Cygous clearly is, but neither our first nor our second cities are. CDZ never proposed a counteroffer. We founded Cygous: CDZ has one city in our territory, Quatronia shall have one in theirs.

And now there is the further matter of researching Music, which Quatronia decided to research after we announced we are doing it.
Wrong. We sent a message to the ETTT announcing we were researching music. Only then did CDZ come forth and state they were doing the same.

When looking back through the event from the beginning we believe it is clear that it was never Quatronia’s intention to negotiate or find some agreement, their intention was to take whatever they could, however they could. Overall this can only be viewed as appalling behaviour towards a nation that is its ally. If a solution is to be found then it must take into account Quatronia’s role in instigating and the exacerbating the problem we have on our hands today.
Quatronia has done nothing but want to find agreement and compromise. It was CDZ who decided to disregard their ally's territory and settle there anyway. It was CDZ who never announced their tech path, and only mentioned music after we did. CDZ accuses Quatronia of "crimes" that only CDZ itself has committed.

Quatronia must know whether the Amazons or Sirius have been gifting gold to CDZ, so that CDZ may continue 100% research. If neither of our ETTT partners are the gifters, then we know that CDZ must be collecting money from either the mavericks or Merlot. What sort of deal they have arranged can only be speculated.

The Continuum wishes to get past this distasteful part of throwing mud on our allies. Quatronia, however, will defend itself from anyone, friend or foe. Let us get the ETTT back on track and move on to rid the world of both the mavericks and Merlot. Glory to CDZ. Glory to the Amazons, Glory to Sirius.

Glory to the ETTT!

-The Continuum

Please offer any critiques/butcherings. ;)

galdarian said:
While I'm at it I've just been looking at the Diplo screenie's from the last few turns. Why would Construction move from "Can Research" to "Wants" for both Merlot and Mavs?
Perhaps one of them researched a prerequisite and then traded it between each other? Could be a CDZ gift, but it wouldn't be number one on my list of reasons.
 
We could point out that if we were really being aggressive we could have founded Asymptote 2E and stolen the southern clams from Spamville. We stayed on our side of the peninsula though.
 
We need to be VERY careful about the tone of any message we send. The reception of the message and how it is perceived will set the course for the rest of our game. No matter how we play it, if it is perceived that we are lying / squirming / accusing / spinning or any other negative connotation then we may have a very uphill battle on our hands.

With that in mind I shall attempt to strengthen RegentMan's message...

Greeting to our allies, the members of the ETTT,

It appears that the integrity of the Continuum has come under question. Quatronia feels the need to clarify a number of misrepresentations in CDZ's letter.

However Quatronia decided to aggressively settle next to Spamville with the cities of Resonance and Asymptote. The usefulness of either of these cities apart from culturally crowding Spamville is marginal at best. Quatronia specifically ignored settling better land that was closer to them, clearly instigating the current situation between two teams that should be behaving as allies, by settling extremely aggressively towards one of our cities.

The Continuum disagrees with CDZ's assessment of our cities, Resonance & Asymptote. They are not aggressive settlements nor are they 'marginally useful' and only serve to crowd Spamville. Asymptote was originally known as 'Cape City' to the Continuum. It's settlement has been planned for centuries. It grants our empire with two resources within its borders. Resonance's was our original 'Asymptote' site. Due to production priorities we were unable to settle it prior to Spamville and had to move it north. The Continuum can provide records of these plans dating back to 1920BC (Turn 52). This is all prior to CDZ settling Spamville in 1560BC (Turn 61).

Now it is important to note that up to this point at no time had Quatronia sought to discuss the settlement of our common peninsula... So in response to their aggressive settling against Spamville we settled ereh rO, Quatronia then settled Pulsar Plateau.

Admitedly, The Continuum had not yet discussed these matters with CDZ, however we were in the process of writing a message regarding splitting the petal. It was at this point CDZ settled ereh rO. Quatronia remains shocked at this move. As you put it yourselves, ereh rO is a 'response', a retaliation to Quatronia's expansion. It's a clear encroachment on our territory as it is quite a distance from the CDZ capital. I would imagine that the citizens have asked at least once to join the The Continuum because when they look across the sea from ereh rO, they see our capital, Continuum! We believe CDZ would be similarly confused should Quatornia have settled "Or here" first. A cheap, productive city in your first-ring location. Has the location been snatched up by a greedy ally?

...nor did they ever express disappointment at not having the stone. They never asked if we would be willing to come to any arrangements with regards to trading the stone to them. All of these actions which one would expect from an ally were never explored by them.

On this point The Continuum feels there is some agreement. We never once mentioned stone, nor does The Continuum require it. We aren't sure why this was included in the original- hopefully it wasn't outside speculation added in. Quatronia does not need the stone.

It was only sometime after this that they came to us and ridiculously demanded we exchanged ereh rO for a settler they would gift us in return...

Quatronia rejects the accusation that we 'Demanded' an exchange. We offered to trade a city for a city- ereh rO for a settler. The Continuum felt it would be a fair way to resolve the situation. Surely if this was ridiculous, we would get a counteroffer? CDZ's reply was hardly friendly, more a dismissal, nor did it contain any hint of a counteroffer.

...because ereh Or was "in their sphere of influence", whilst grossly overlooking the fact that the first city they settled on the peninsula was "in CDZ's sphere of influence". This we found inadequate compensation for our city so they went ahead and settled Cygous.

Clearly our definition of 'sphere of influence' differs. Both Resonance and Asymptote are not in CDZ's sphere of influence. Cygous clearly is, but neither our first nor our second cities.

And now there is the further matter of researching Music, which Quatronia decided to research after we announced we are doing it.

Quatronia does not agree with your judgement. We sent a message to the ETTT announcing we were researching music. Only then did CDZ come forth and state they were doing the same. The previous official message regarding research had CDZ researching Feudalism. The Continuum doesn't recall when the secrets of Feudalism were discovered.

When looking back through the event from the beginning we believe it is clear that it was never Quatronia’s intention to negotiate or find some agreement, their intention was to take whatever they could, however they could. Overall this can only be viewed as appalling behaviour towards a nation that is its ally. If a solution is to be found then it must take into account Quatronia’s role in instigating and the exacerbating the problem we have on our hands today.

Quatronia wants to find agreement and compromise. It is CDZ who decided to disregard an ally's territory and settle. It is CDZ who never announced their tech path, and only mentioned music after we did. CDZ accuses Quatronia of "crimes" that only CDZ itself has committed.

The Continuum, and the members of the ETTT wish to know whether the Amazons or Sirius have been filling CDZ's coffers with gold. Maintenance of the CDZ empire, with a city so far from it's capital, must be killing it's economy. Presumably this gold is required so that CDZ can continue it's research.
If neither of our ETTT partners are the source of these funds, then the ETTT requires an answer from CDZ. In this open forum we ask that CDZ declare it's funding and ease all concerned.

The Continuum wishes to clarify to our allies that we value the mutual agreements enshirned in the ETTT. Quatronia will always act in the best interests of her people. Let us move beyond this finger pointing and get the ETTT back on track. Let us focus on the common goal; to rid the world of both the Mavericks and Merlot. Glory to CDZ. Glory to the Amazons, Glory to Sirius.

Glory to the ETTT!

-The Continuum

I'm not much a fan of the whole "Glory to the" bit at the end. Sounds naf.
We do have screenshots that date back to Turn 52 which can support our (original) positioning for Asymptote and Resonance if we think it relevant to include it although we may want to check the rules about that first. I don't think it's a problem to provide.
 
Good idea about screenshots, it is legal to trade them after paper.

I think we should declare we will bulb. We need to show our allies we are firmly on their side, to prevent the ETTT from fracturing (though that is unlikely) and to get good standing for alliances beyond the ETTT. We should also address Amazon a bit. So here are my revisions:
Greeting to our allies, the members of the ETTT,

Quatronia would like to thank Amazon for their efforts to solve the problems our alliance is facing, will work together with our allies to ensure our efforts remain united against our enemies. However, it appears that the integrity of the Continuum has come under question. Quatronia feels the need to clarify a number of misrepresentations in CDZ's letter, so that we can move forward.

However Quatronia decided to aggressively settle next to Spamville with the cities of Resonance and Asymptote. The usefulness of either of these cities apart from culturally crowding Spamville is marginal at best. Quatronia specifically ignored settling better land that was closer to them, clearly instigating the current situation between two teams that should be behaving as allies, by settling extremely aggressively towards one of our cities.
The Continuum disagrees with CDZ's assessment of our cities, Resonance & Asymptote. They are not aggressive settlements nor are they 'marginally useful' and only serve to crowd Spamville. Asymptote was originally known as 'Cape City' to the Continuum. It's settlement has been planned for centuries. It grants our empire with two resources within its borders. Resonance's was originally planned further south, but due to production priorities we were unable to settle it prior to Spamville and had to move it north, though it is still a fine city spot. In fact it has the highest population on the peninsula. The Continuum can provide records of these plans dating back to 1920BC (Turn 52). This is all prior to CDZ settling Spamville in 1560BC (Turn 61). We apologize if you saw these moves as aggressive, it is unfortunate that you did not send us any messages to inform us of that.


Now it is important to note that up to this point at no time had Quatronia sought to discuss the settlement of our common peninsula... So in response to their aggressive settling against Spamville we settled ereh rO, Quatronia then settled Pulsar Plateau.
Admitedly, The Continuum had not yet discussed these matters with CDZ, however we were in the process of writing a message regarding splitting the petal. It was at this point CDZ settled ereh rO. Quatronia remains shocked at this move. As you put it yourselves, ereh rO is a 'response', a retaliation to Quatronia's expansion. It's a clear encroachment on our territory as it is quite a distance from the CDZ capital. I would imagine that the citizens have asked at least once to join the The Continuum because when they look across the sea from ereh rO, they see our capital, Continuum! We believe CDZ would be similarly confused should Quatronia have settled "Or here" first. A cheap, productive city in your first-ring location. Has the location been snatched up by a greedy ally?

...nor did they ever express disappointment at not having the stone. They never asked if we would be willing to come to any arrangements with regards to trading the stone to them. All of these actions which one would expect from an ally were never explored by them.
On this point The Continuum feels there is some agreement. We never once mentioned stone, nor does The Continuum require it. We aren't sure why this was included in the original- hopefully it wasn't outside speculation added in. Quatronia does not need the stone, though we would be open to perhaps borrowing it one day for Moai in a fair exchange.


It was only sometime after this that they came to us and ridiculously demanded we exchanged ereh rO for a settler they would gift us in return...
Quatronia rejects the accusation that we 'Demanded' an exchange. We offered to trade a city for a city- ereh rO for a settler. The Continuum felt it would be a fair way to resolve the situation. Surely if this was ridiculous, we would get a counteroffer? CDZ's reply was hardly friendly, more a dismissal, nor did it contain any hint of a counteroffer.


...because ereh Or was "in their sphere of influence", whilst grossly overlooking the fact that the first city they settled on the peninsula was "in CDZ's sphere of influence". This we found inadequate compensation for our city so they went ahead and settled Cygous.
Clearly our definition of 'sphere of influence' differs. Both Resonance and Asymptote are not in CDZ's sphere of influence. Cygnus clearly is, but neither our first nor our second cities.

And now there is the further matter of researching Music, which Quatronia decided to research after we announced we are doing it.
Quatronia does not agree with your judgement. We sent a message to the ETTT announcing we were researching music. Only then did CDZ come forth and state they were doing the same. The previous official message regarding research had CDZ researching Feudalism. The Continuum doesn't recall when the secrets of Feudalism were discovered.


When looking back through the event from the beginning we believe it is clear that it was never Quatronia’s intention to negotiate or find some agreement, their intention was to take whatever they could, however they could. Overall this can only be viewed as appalling behaviour towards a nation that is its ally. If a solution is to be found then it must take into account Quatronia’s role in instigating and the exacerbating the problem we have on our hands today.
Quatronia wants to find agreement and compromise. It is CDZ who decided to disregard an ally's territory and settle. It is CDZ who never announced their tech path, and only mentioned music after we did. CDZ accuses Quatronia of "crimes" that only CDZ itself has committed.

The Continuum, and the members of the ETTT wish to know whether the Amazons or Sirius have been filling CDZ's coffers with gold. Presumably this gold is required so that CDZ can continue it's research. While Quatronia does not wish to poke its nose into dealings between allies, we are concerned about the motives of these deals, so please relieve our concern with the explanation of what we hope to be legitimate deals.

Now that we have cleared up any misconceptions, let us get back on the path to cooperation and M&M devouring. Since actions speak louder than words, Quatronia will use the Great Artist to bulb, which will benefit the whole ETTT, and make up for lost beakers. As for the Mavericks, we will declare war on them when our non-aggression pact ends, on turn 95. If CDZ comes under threat from them, before or after that time, we will not hesitate to come to your defense, so please let us know if you have any Maverick problems. We know they have amassed an army, we're just not sure where it is- so Amazon be on the lookout too, with your central city.

The Continuum wishes to clarify to our allies that we value the mutual agreements enshrined in the ETTT. Quatronia will always act in the best interests of her people. Let us move beyond this finger pointing and get the ETTT back on track. Let us focus on the common goal; to rid the world of both the Mavericks and Merlot. Glory to CDZ. Glory to the Amazons, Glory to Sirius.

Glory to the ETTT!

-The Continuum
Main points- clarified the explanation of Resonance, it didn't make much sense to an outsider
-softened the request for an explanation of the gold gifts, there is no need to accuse them of dealing with M&M- if neither Sirius or Amazon are responsible, then the $%!# will hit the fan anyways
-declaring intention to bulb and discussing Maverick military matters demonstrate our commitment more solidly than vague reassurances
 
Perhaps it should say "Quatronia intends to bulb the GA for Philosopy" suggesting that this was our intention any way.
It would bulb Philo after Drama wouldn't it? Are there any members of the ETTT whom do not yet have a religion?
 
That was worth looking up. It would go drama (which we should finish first), then philosophy CDZ doesn't have a religion of their own- they have Buddhism in ereh rO though. I think Amazon had planned on philosophy though, and CDZ didn't challenge them, so it should be ok. We'll get missionaries at any rate, we can gift them.

EDIT!: First, it will in fact go to divine right after drama, which would be interesting (and that is a lot of beakers- I don't know how to determine if it will actually complete it). Second, I have yet another revision about the gold gifts:
We have attached several screenshots showing the finances of all the teams over the last few turns. Could CDZ please explain the reason for their sudden (mid-turn) gold increase, and Merlot's decrease in gold?
Short and to the point. I will send the revised message by 22:00 GMT, as we need to defend our integrity and get to the bottom of CDZ's dealings. If you have any issues or revisions, please post. One issue I can think of is that we might want to get to the bottom of the CDZ gold before discussing anything else, but I don't think anything in the message is too revealing.
 
Revised looks good to me. I would tweak one paragraph, just for clarity's sake.

Admitedly, The Continuum had not yet discussed these matters with CDZ, however we were in the process of writing a message regarding splitting the petal. It was at this point CDZ settled ereh rO. Quatronia remains shocked at this move. As you put it yourselves, ereh rO is a 'response', a retaliation to Quatronia's expansion. It's a clear encroachment on our territory as it is quite a distance from the CDZ capital. I would imagine that the citizens of ereh rO have asked at least once to join the The Continuum because when they look across the sea, they see our capital, Continuum! We believe CDZ would be similarly confused should Quatronia have settled "Or here" first. A cheap, productive city in your first-ring location, snatched up by a greedy ally? Of course this would be cause for strife.
 
I believe when we first made contact with CDZ we proposed discussing land settling - way before the ETTT or anything (before we had contact with other civilizations), but we did that once or twice, and they never answered.

Still reading over the message, looking good though.

I love the line "don't recall when the secrets of Feudalism were discovered"

I strongly encourage the revision/mention of what Charlemagne mentioned about gold gifts (and we have the screens in the other thread, that's fine). Both because I really doubt any other ETTT team did this and because it puts pressure on CDZ.

Edit: for the record, looking through old messages, we didn't really propose to discuss settling arrangements - perhaps we could have but didn't. It's still equally true though we never once complained about the stone so we should make clear that's a non-issue/never was a threat from us or anything.

If CDZ is being gifted gold by someone else I really wonder about the consequences of that. Surely if we get the Artist then I wouldn't use it on bulbing, we'd either culture bomb or golden age it I guess but I don't want conflict with both CDZ and Mavericks either.
 
Considering that it's now an issue for Amazon and by extension Sirius I don't think that rocking the apple cart is a good idea. We should be open to considering their opinion. If they aren't to fussed about how we use the GA then a culture bomb for sure.
 
Sent! I included all revisions and changed the time of our NAP to "in a couple of turns" (we want to make sure CDZ doesn't stab us in the back before DoWing)

Now that we've made the gesture of planning to bulb, we can probably discuss it further with the ETTT once we actually have the artist- halfway to divine right isn't really all that useful.
 
The GA can be good leverage so saying we are going to bulb takes an ace out of our hand. Even if we don't bomb with him we should still keep him around as a thinly veiled threat.
 
Well here's how I would break things down:

Settle the Artist - no, pointless
Bulb - helps our allies as a whole, but really only useful from a diplomacy perspective, to placate our allies
Bomb CDZ - gives decent returns in the long run if CDZ doesn't fight back - but the likelihood of the latter and hurting the alliance is pretty high
Golden Age - solid returns both in the short term and the long term if it gives us an edge on more military/settling/etc... and saves us from wasting another GP sometime, as it is true we aren't pumping out that many. Probably not the most pleasing thing for our allies to hear either though. But if we have another point of contention (say, CDZ dealing with MERLOT) then we could complain they've broken agreements and we might as well use the Artist for ourselves or something like that.
 
I think Amazon or Sirius would be okay wit a golden age if we said that bulbing would only get us half of divine right (I don't think it would be best for the ETTT for us to finish the other half). But right now, it's just a gesture that we can change our minds on publicly later if we give everyone enough warning.

Also, is it possible to propose an in-game offer wit CDZ to declare war on Mavericks if they DoW Merlot and Mavs? Otherwise, I wouldn't really trust them- I don't want to declare war on Mavericks and discover CDZ is against us too.
 
There is now a response from Team Amazon

Honorable ETTT Allies:

We Zenobians welcome the recent messages from both the Kleptocracy and the Continuum. We are heartened to see both teams showing a good-faith commitment to resolving this dispute peacefully to the benefit of the ETTT. The goal of this letter is to establish a universally accepted starting point for the settlement of this matter.

We cannot hope to establish a starting point for negotiations if the status-quo is in flux. Therefore, as a preliminary matter, we ask both teams to agree that there will be no settlement on the shared landmass until a settlement agreement is reached. As the Matriarchal Alliance has not named this landmass, we will be referring to the Continuum-Kleptocracy shared landmass as “Hoag” (the name Sirius has given it) for the purposes of this letter.

We understand and recognize that both teams have legitimate concerns, and before addressing these, we would like to remind our allies that the map is designed in such a manner as to encourage conflict. We will continue to reiterate this point throughout the negotiations, when it bears on the issue being discussed.

We see two issues with the status quo… a very dense city placement with lots of potential cultural overlap, and cities that cross into each team's "sphere of influence." While the cities are packed in tightly, most cities appear to be viable so long as both teams maintain cultural parity. At this point, both teams should see the value of adopting an agreement that limits further cultural competition.

We feel that the harder issue to resolve is the concern about "spheres of influence." There are many potential solutions, but this will involve delicate, possibly-lengthy, negotiations and discourse. During this time, we anticipate that settlement of other areas of the map will be a necessity, however we repeat that further settlement of Hoag will only serve to disrupt the status quo and further complicate negotiations. So again, we respectfully request that both the Continuum and the Kleptocracy openly commit to cease all settlement of Hoag, until an agreement is reached.

We have already discussed some possible settlement agreements, but introducing these suggestions would be unproductive, without general agreement among the parties as to the starting point of the negotiations. Again, that is the goal of this letter, to reach that mutually agreed starting point, so that everyone is on the same page.

So while we feel that resolving this dispute cannot be accomplished by looking to the past, it has become clear from recent correspondence, that both sides wish to address the events leading up to the present dilemma. It seems that in order to reach a mutually agreed starting point for negotiations, it is necessary to first establish an objective “score” of the situation thus far.

Our approach therefore, will be to present the parties with our objective analysis of the record as we have it. In reaching our conclusions, we have taken into account the parties’ correspondences, as well as the attending circumstances, and applied logic and reasoning to trace the roots and causes of this dispute. We expect that as with the findings of any impartial arbitrator, both parties will agree with some of what we have to say, and disagree with some of what we have to say, but that is the purpose of this letter, to flesh out the relevant sources of disagreement and discard the irrelevant ones.

We seek only to present our objective findings, to determine what facts can be agreed upon, what facts need further discussion or clarification, and what facts are irrelevant or hopelessly at impasse and therefore must be put aside. Once we have established what can be agreed upon, we will have our starting point, and will then be able to move on to fruitful suggestions for a settlement agreement, based on that common ground and common understanding.

We will address the history of this dispute in a loose timeline form:

1. 'Spamville' and 'Or Here' are perfectly legitimate cities, being located on CDZ's "side" of Hoag, especially since at least one, if not both, were founded before CDZ entered the ETTT.

2. Resonance is a legitimate city, even without access to the Stone, however, the fact that the one of the 3 tiles of cultural conflict is the tile containing the Stone is slightly provocative, and warranted at least some warning or minimal attempts at discussion prior to founding. The deciding factor is whether CDZ was in the ETTT when Resonance was founded. If yes, then Resonance is legitimate but slightly provocative. If no, then Resonance is completely legitimate. When Resonance was planned is not really relevant, unless those plans were communicated to CDZ.

3. Asymptote is a poorly placed, but completely legitimate city, as it has no major cultural conflict with Spamville, and does not ‘threaten the Stone’ as CDZ suggests. Asymptote is on Quatronia's 'side' of Hoag and claims two seafood resources as well as using an Oasis. Assymptote does steal the Oasis from Spamville, however, the Oasis is not Spamville’s primary food source, the Clam is. And this is where the intentionally conflict-inducing map comes into play. The oasis at the tip of the spire is clearly intended to induce settlement to obtain the Whale.

So in that sense, the oasis ‘belongs’ to the Whale City, not the Stone city. The whole point of the oasis is to make the Whale city viable. On the other hand, a city founded to claim the Whale will unavoidable extend its culture onto the other teams ‘side’ of Hoag, and since there is only one Whale and one Stone, any city founded in the spire will feel provocative, but this has more to do with the map design, and less to do with any ill intentions. The other cultural conflicts with Assymptote are on marginal plains tiles and can hardly be considered provocative.

CDZ is correct that Asymptote is provocative, only in the sense that Quatronia had better sites available to them, and chose the site that is clearly the worst on Hoag, AND squeezes their borders against CDZ. Quatronia could have chosen a site that was farther away from CDZ and simultaneously a better city overall, but absent some agreement with CDZ they certainly had no obligation to do so.

Upon the founding of Asymptote, CDZ was perfectly correct to assume that Quatronia intended to found cities wherever they wished, on Quatronia's side of Hoag, regardless of how CDZ felt about the cities, and regardless of cultural conflict. CDZ would have therefore been perfectly justified in founding any city on CDZ's side of Hoag in response, but NOT justified in founding cities on Quatronia's side.

4. Therefore, CDZ's claim that Resonance and Asymptote provoked them to found ereh Ro is weak. Resonance and Asymptote are minimally provocative yes, but not THAT provocative. ereh Ro is completely illegitimate, being founded on Quatronia's side of Hoag, on the coast, in Quatronian waters, and claiming the second of the only two Copper sources on Hoag, when CDZ already had a source of Copper. ereh Ro was a total over-reaction to minor provocations at best. Either when Quatronia founded Resonance or especially when Quatronia founded Asymptote, CDZ should have opened settlement negotiations, if they were offended by these cities, rather than escalate the conflict by founding an overly provocative city like ereh Ro.

5. At the point where ereh Ro was founded, the ETTT was in effect, and CDZ should have negotiated with Quatronia over the founding of future cities on Hoag. Both allies were morally (not contracturally) obligated to initiate these talks, so the fact that neither apparently did is wrongdoing on the part of both. CDZ points out that "at no time had Quatronia sought to discuss the settlement of our common peninsula," but they ignore what is equally true, specifically, that CDZ did not seek to discuss settlement either.

6. The argument that "Quatronia did not ask our permission to claim the near-worthless plains spire" is unpersuasive. Asymptote's value is marginal at best, so it was reasonable for Quatronia to assume that CDZ would not want a city in that location, and there would therefore be no harm in claiming the location for themselves. CDZ has even called the city site "marginal" indicating that they did not desire the rest of the land on the barren spire. Furthermore, Asymptote does not threaten the Stone, and it is clearly founded on Quatronia's side of Hoag.

Similarly, the argument that "Quatronia did not ask permission to found a city on Quatronia's side of Hoag, that has three tiles of cultural conflict with Spamville" is also unpersuasive. Resonance is a fine city without the Stone, and the conflict is at the corner of Resonance's BFC, while the Stone is adjacent to Spamville. There is very little chance that Resonance would ever come close to claiming that Stone from Spamville.

7. Pulsar Plateau is an abomination. Whatever moral high ground Quatronia had upon the founding of ereh Ro was completely squandered and erased by founding Pulsar Plateau. Frankly Pulsar Plateau was very close to a de facto declaration of war, thankfully for the ETTT, CDZ did not treat it as such.

Besides creating 12 tiles of cultural conflict, all on valuable grassland tiles, Pulsar Plateau, on a matter of principle is founded in a location that had clearly been claimed by CDZ cities. In fact Pulsar Plateau is not, in and of itself a viable city like Resonance. Its true viability depends upon stealing tiles from the surrounding CDZ cities. Also Pulsar Plateau threatens two strategic resources (both Coppers). Threatening one strategic resource is usually enough to get DoWed' in MP.

The fact that Pulsar Plateau claims an unclaimed banana is a pitiful excuse for founding such an outrageous city. Risking War over a banana? We consider this unlikely. It is more likely that Pulsar Plateau was founded for the specific purpose of stealing the Coppers from CDZ, and CDZ was perfectly reasonable to assume that Pulsar Plateau would be the site of a Cultural Bomb at some later point.

Another bad-faith aspect of Pulsar Plateau, is that when it was founded, we all already knew that we had Iron on our home islands, making the city even more blatantly and unnecessarily provocative. Therefore, Quatronia can not even claim that they needed the Copper, because they already had Iron... 'iron'ically, thanks to CDZ gifting it to the alliance... which makes Pulsar Plateau even more of an insult and outrage against CDZ. CDZ 'gave' the alliance access to Iron by gifting Iron-Working, and Quatronia responds by trying to steal CDZ's Copper.

8. Pulsar Plateau is bad, but Cygous is even worse. The negotiation that Quatronia attempted after founding Pulsar Plateau was too little, too late, to justify Cygous. The time to negotiate was before founding Pulsar Plateau. Furthermore, even if the negotiations proved unsuccessful, that would not justify Pulsar Plateau or Cygous. Cygous, if founded by itself, in response to ereh Ro, would have been a measured response with some small degree of arguable justification, but after the founding of Pulsar Plateau, Cygous was just provocation on top of provocation.

This situation can be likened to a schoolyard fight, where Quatronia sticks their tongue out at CDZ. CDZ then pushes Quatronia in response. Quatronia then punches CDZ in the face, but then says "Hey lets be friends now, just let me push you back first." When CDZ says "no," Quatronia hits CDZ in the head with a rock.

9. About Music... CDZ was teching Music first, before Quatronia was teching it. It is true that Quatronia was first to announce a desire to tech Music, but they stated plainly that they intended to tech Drama first. CDZ then replied that they were already teching Music. This should have ended the discussion. CDZ techs Music, and Quatronia techs Drama. If Quatronia only wanted Drama to reduce the cost of teching Music, then they could have selected something else to tech at that point.

For example, if Quatronia has expressed a desire to tech Construction, only to be informed that Sirius was already teching it, they would simply select something else. Another example would be, if Sirius were to announce that they intended to get all the prerequisite techs along the path to Monarchy, and then tech Monarchy, only to be told that CDZ was already teching Monarchy without getting the prereqs, they might be slightly annoyed, but they would just find something else to tech.

The only reason there was any ado over 'who called Music first' is because of the desire on the part of both teams, to get the Great Artist. The only reason the teams are racing to get the Artist, is to culture bomb each other off of Hoag, or to prevent themselves from being culture bombed.

CDZ has not specifically stated why they initially sought to gain the Great Artist, however they have intimated that they considered using it against Merlot. This claim has some merit, but is not entirely persuasive. What is more likely, and completely legitimate, is that upon the founding of Pulsar Plateau, CDZ either anticipated a culture bomb from Quatronia at Pulsar Plateau, or intended to use a Culture bomb to capture Pulsar Plateau. Either use of the culture bomb would not have been condone-able, but probably would have been understandable under the circumstances.

Quatronia has stated that they only sought to get the culture bomb to prevent CDZ from getting it first, and using it against them. This argument is totally unpersuasive. This is because Quatronia announced that they wanted Music before CDZ announced that they were pursuing Music already. And when CDZ replied that they were after Music already, Quatronia conveyed shock and surprise, as if they were operating under the assumption that CDZ was after something totally different (Feudalism).

There is no convincing reason that a team would be after Music at this stage, other than to get the Great Artist, so Quatronia can not claim that they called Music first (and thus, called the Great Artist first), AND simultaneously claim that they were ONLY pursuing the Great Artist to beat CDZ to it.

This is because, the only way Quatronia could be seeking to beat CDZ to the Artist, is if they already knew, or anticipated, that CDZ was going for it. If they knew CDZ was after the Artist, then their claim to have "called it first" is illegitimate, because they knew CDZ was already in-fact after it.

If on the other hand, Quatronia had no idea that CDZ was after the Artist, then their claim that they had to defensively get it to 'beat CDZ to it' is undermined, because if CDZ was not after it… as far as Quatronia knew (i.e. CDZ was after Feudalism)…, then there was no need to beat them to it. So in short, either Quatronia had a pretty good idea that CDZ was after the Artist and they tried to usurp CDZ after the fact, or Quatronia had no idea whether CDZ was going for the Artist or not and they decided to pursue the Artist as an aggressive tactic, totally independent of whether CDZ was doing so.

So the bottom line of our analysis is... Quatronia technically initiated this conflict, but their actions were very minimal. CDZ totally overreacted, drastically escalating the situation. Quatronia responded with even worse behavior and then compounded their bad acts with additional bad acts, making the situation even worse, and both sides continue the escalation. Returning to the schoolyard analogy, after Quatronia sticks out their tongue, CDZ pushes, Quatronia then punches, and hits CDZ with a rock, CDZ then sees a gun (the G. Artist) on the ground, and makes a run to get it, Quatronia then sees the gun and gives chase, saying "Hey I call the gun, I called it first!"

Surely we can at least agree that neither party should use the gun on the other?

Where do we go from here?

As has been previously stated, we welcome the teams’ feedback on our objective analysis. Reaching some common ground on what went wrong and how to move forward is the only way to resolve this disagreement. As mentioned above, we have already come up with some suggested settlement agreements that we will share when both parties have aired their grievances to their satisfaction. Sharing of city screen shots could help ensure both teams know the other party is acting in good faith. We offer our assistance if needed to oversee this process. While trading cities is a potential solution, this would involve more difficult negotiations. We feel it will be more productive to follow a three-step process, whereby both teams agree to:

1. First, halt expansion on Hoag, pending a settlement agreement.
2. Voice all concerns with the objective analysis, to establish a bona fide, agreed starting point for negotiations
3. Discuss and reach a settlement agreement that addresses as many concerns as possible with as little disruption to the status quo as possible.

We look forward to hearing from our allies,

Sommerswerd, Captain of the Zenobian Matriarchal Alliance
 
It is better than the alternative for now (though Maverick are starting to look more and more like a good ally, if CDZ has betrayed us). Maybe CDZ would have been reasonable if we'd opened up diplomatic channels after ereh rO, but there's no way to know that now. I think Amazon had this pre crafted and waited until we'd both replied- they didn't respond to our offering to bulb or the rather serious accusation we leveled at CDZ. They really want the ETTT to work, and this was a pretty objective analysis. I for one have no qualms about not settling "Hoag" further and discussing a settling agreement- once we can be assured CDZ hasn't betrayed us.

As for Amazon's analysis of our cities (and the fact they called Pulsar Plateau an abomination), I've analyzed the maximum output of each city:
This is the maximum output of each city on Hoag, with current technology, and assuming a focus on production- no cottages or windmills. Building cottages would basically trade production for wealth.It assumes every coast tile is worked, and plains are farmed where possible. It assumes one border pop. CDZ cities are calculated as if there are no Quatronian cities, and Spamville has been done twice, one for the original and one for after resonance and asymptote (it does not factor in Cygnus). It should be noted that this study does not take into account growth rates and production and lower population (Resonance doesn't lose much production when we remove some population, but Spamville does). It also does not factor in a specialist economy, as stated, it presumes a focus on production, and some cities have more leeway to what kind of city it should be (Pulsar Plateau is almost entirely surrounded by hills and so is a production city). It does not factor in a health/ happiness cap. The calculation for Cygnus does not use any tiles used by Resonance, though in reality they would share tiles.

Pulsar Plateau:
population 10
25 hammers
7 gold

Resonance
population 19
26 hammers (max hammers at 15)
22 gold

Asymptote:
5 hammers (16 with Moai)
population 15 (max hammers at 4)
31 gold

Spamville:
population 12
18 hammers (max hammers at 9)
16 gold

Spamville original:
population 15 (max hammers at 12)
25 hammers
16 gold

Or here:
population 19 (max hammers at 13)
22 hammers
27 gold

ereh rO:
population 19 (max hammers at 14)
24 hammers
21 gold

Cygnus:
population 9
6 hammers + 1 specialist

As we can see, cities founded by Quatronia are not badly placed. Pulsar Plateau is among the best producing cities, wit a population of only 10. Asymptote has the worst production, but the best commerce.
20 gold
 
Whilst I agree with your assessment and analysis of the cities, I doubt that pointing this out to the ETTT will make any difference now. I think you're right in that they already had the letter pre crafted for a quick response. It seems to have arrived too soon after ours to be otherwise.

As an objective observation they have got Pulsar Plateau roughly right. I would argue that Pulsar Plateau is a city of best fit based on available remaining land. Sure it may look like an attempt to split CDZ's territory up and long term we want to win the game so why wouldn't we do such a thing.

If we take this back a notch to when we were first trying to put the ETTT together it was Quatronia who vouched for CDZ and brought them into the fold. If I recall correctly both Aamzon's and The Continuum had our reservations as we don't really know the players on that team very well. If I had to hazard a guess I think that Amazons see the potential for this current set of events to dissolve the ETTT and they are acting in their best interests to hold it together for as long as possible. The ETTT itself has a shelf life. I would estimate that we have < 50 turns before a 3v1 or 2v2 situation.

It may be that Pulsar Plateau gets razed to settle this dispute. We need to decide amongst ourselves what outcomes we feel are acceptable.

First I think that we should quickly respond suggesting that Quatronia will not continue negotiation until we've had full disclosure regarding CDZ's financier(s).
 
The fact that CDZ settled like 2 turns before each of our settlers got there is what caused this problem, and we could rightly point this out. Pulsar Plateau came very shortly after ereh Ro, and we intended to settle Cosmos overselves.

The same goes for Resonance - Spamville was there just a handful of turns faster and our settler/galley were already en route.

I do wish we'd managed to REX better the whole time, but at the same time it's really odd that AMAZONs have not recognized the other problems the map forced upon us - not having the desert peninsula shared for instance, and MERLOT and Mavericks already as enemies settled the other land which probably made settling towards each other (us and CDZ) mutually encouraged.

But anyway I don't care - I don't see how communicating more to AMAZON is going to help. They've made their decisions and we're not settling the peninsula further, and we'll have military to defend the cities.

I do like using the Great Artist as things stand on a golden age. Say it would only bulb part of a worthless Divine Right and that's it.

I do wish that we'd communicated things like asking Sirius to tech music, or bulbing or golden aging the great artist earlier. Perhaps I didn't make it clear, but from elsewhere on the forums AMAZON has a significant number of young posters who can't reason through arguments very well, and like to jump to conclusions that cause conflict. I don't know how this affects their leadership but if they are a team with lots of "polls" and so on I could see this working out - I also expect they just have a significant number of these people inactive or lurking though, just joined to, y'know, be "Amazon women" and joke about that.

Also, it's completely unexcusable that the problem of CDZ's gold has not been addressed. In fact I think that's the only answer we give right now - say we're not settling further anyway and have no grounds for further negotiation until CDZ explains they are not dealing with Mavericks or MERLOT.



edit If AMAZONs are getting really nasty arguing about city settling, we should show them this screenshot, 3rd one from this post:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9528752&postcount=81

It shows that ereh Ro was founded just a couple turns before our settler was there, and CDZ obviously did not negotiate, and we had to settle Pulsar instead. I think it's fair to point out to AMAZON the fact that as our settler was ALREADY going there, it's not like it's really fair to have expected us to go somewhere completely different at that point. But again, I think they don't care - or all they really care about it keeping the ETTT together, and I think CDZ is not following through there anyway.

Also, we should make very clear that we offered CDZ negotiation and waited a full couple of turns to even settle Cygmus, but they were not interested in doing so.

Spoiler :




one last edit: I think it's fair to point out that in all their city-settling, CDZ has not at all followed up on developing their cities. This is indicated by the fact they didn't have workers or workboats ready to really help out at their cities, and they haven't grown their cities to higher pop (Resonance and Asymptote clearly doing better there). ereh Ro is a very solid example where they rushed to settle the city, and still don't have any workers/resources etc... to support it, whereas we didn't do the same with our cities, we came prepared/with a plan to develop them. A further indication is the fact that CDZ is completely defenseless against, say, Maverick attack around ereh Ro and would expect us and our ships to defend them.

But really we don't have to justify to AMAZON how cities were founded in the end. It doesn't matter, because we are trying to do the best for us to come out on top just like CDZ and everyone else is doing for themselves.
 
I agree that we don't really have to justify our city building to Amazon, though maybe it could help to have a discussion like that with CDZ if they haven't backstabbed us. Amazon's analysis prompted me to look into the worth of all the cities so we can have that knowledge, not necessarily so we pass it on. Despite our lack of early REXing, it appears as though we've come out on top in the settling race, especially as the CDZ cities are much worse than on paper due to our efforts.

For the next steps, here is what I propose we do:
1) Get to the bottom of the Viking treasure. If they've been dealing with Merlot, we must get Mavericks to take their place in the ETTT otherwise face a two-front war. We should send a message to Sirius and Amazon with these concerns.

2) Golden age. No point in divine right, and a culture bomb will either annoy the rest of the alliance too much or be ineffective in a military contest. We can't threaten CDZ with it either, as they will go whining to the rest of the alliance.

3) If CDZ turns out to be trustworthy, the everyone should DoW M&M. If not, we must be prepared to bring Mavericks into ETTT 2.0, maybe have a ready made message.

4) If the ETTT holds and is at war with M&M, then we say plenty of nice things, look to make amends, mainly to make sure Sirius and Amazon still like us. Since we've got a good position on the peninsula, I see no reason to offer a city trade, we can let CDZ come up with one if they want, and we can then consider it. We're not planning on building there in the near future, so agreeing to do that is no problem.

Please add your own thoughts/ critiques to this policy so we can figure out our aims and make it easier to craft messages.

One more thing to consider, though it is a small detail- Amazon mentions that Sirius has named our peninsula 'Hoag'. In itself, that doesn't mean anything, but we can see that they've had extensive communication with each other on this issue, and in general. Post-ETTT, that probably means they intend to be the last two remaining, so a 3v1 against CDZ would turn into 2v1 against us, and it is unlikely we can turn Sirius against Amazon so we can fight CDZ. So it is necessary to patch things up with CDZ if possible to keep our options open.
 
I really appreciate your summary, you've stated our issues well. My takes:
-I like the Golden Age, personally. This is my vote but it's as always a team decision.

-AMAZONs would be suicidal to intend for Sirius to be the last team remaining. True, we don't know what they are thinking, and they might not like the idea of us being the 2nd to last team with them as much as they might have said initially. But taking Sirius to the end would result in AMAZONs being utterly wrecked by Sirius (better economy, Dikes, etc...)

However, I have no doubts both of those teams could easily find a position that would really hurt us in advancing their own goals to the endgame.

-I would prefer to keep the ETTT together, not have to fight CDZ right now, and in the even it happens bringing Mavericks in over MERLOT but that would still be a tough thing to set up - much rather we just take out M&M. However CDZ could already have really secretly abandoned the ETTT and any hopes of alliance so we should be aware of this issue/backstab.

I'd probably send the following in messages:
-Just announce we must settle the concern of CDZ dealing with others before any other deals are made. Announce we don't intend to settle "Hoag" more anyway though. I don't think it's worth trying to justify city positions/history of cities anyway. But if to one particular team, like AMAZONs, if they really want that in private we do have the analysis/screenshots around.

-Encourage war on M&M, basically saying we agree with that goal put forward by AMAZON and are about to pursue it actively.
 
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