Must the computer cheat on NOBLE?!

Endureth

Warlord
Joined
Nov 2, 2001
Messages
233
The situation:

Started a game on noble, 17 civs (I never play with civ #13), raging barbarians, all victories except time enabled. World is snaky continents.

I start off as Japan by sending my warrior out to explore and begin work on a worker. When the worker comes out I take a gamble and que up a barracks without making a warrior to protect my undefended capital. I figure since my traits are aggressive and organized the barracks might pay off.

Anyway, I do a bit of exploring, crank out the barracks, 2 warriors and a settler. I have both horses and stone within my city radius so I build stonehenge as well. It's starting out to be a pretty good game.

Then I run across a location not to far from my first expansion city with 5 gems and 2 dye ALONG a river that would be perfect for my next city. I also run across a greek settler accompanied by 2 warriors.

I think to myself, "self, aren't you glad you built that barracks and researched the technologies early that allow you to build chariots?"

"Absolutely." I respond to myself.

So I put building of the pyramids on hold (after all I had stone in my capital city's radius) and crank out 6 chariots. That should be more than enough. I'm not really a war-like player so I had no intentions of knocking Greece out of the game. I just wanted that one city so I could have all those gems. Cha-ching!

Here's where the cheating kicks in. Remember this is on NOBLE difficulty. I pull my chariots up to his city and find that there are only two warriors defending it. I figured that so I hit the next turn button. As soon as I hit the button I see his two warriors become two axemen. Wha? Axemen seem kind of advanced for so early in the game especially considering he would need copper or iron to make them, have it mined already AND have found enough gold from goodie huts to even afford the upgrades.

I go through with the plan and take the city. With Flanking I (love my barracks) it's easy as cake.

Remember my original plan was just to take this city then try for peace but these axemen seemed a little suspicious so I uncover all the fog of war around his capital city. If he really does have copper or iron, I want it.

But alas there is none to be found.

So the question is how the hell did the computer upgrade those units? He cheated, it's the only explanation. I tried to put some pictures on putfile.com as proof but it's not cooperating right now. I even went back and replayed the scenario to get some screenshots.

This is what put me off of Civ 3. I'm not the best player in the world which is why I play on noble. I just want a fun challenging game. It's hard enough when I get into the later ages and have to figure out ways to stop the more advanced AI opponents. It's disheartening to know that the AI pulls this crap.

-E
 
If you have saved this game, reload and open the world bulider. Put a spy unit in the AI's cities and you will see if it has any resources.
 
Can you post your savegame so we can reproduce it and have a look into it?

Did you make sure that you had Bronze Working researched? (Otherwise you wouldn't see copper on the map).
 
mzprox said:
If you have saved this game, reload and open the world bulider. Put a spy unit in the AI's cities and you will see if it has any resources.

Against my better judgement (I do want to play out this game) I put a spy in his city just to see if he had the copper or iron. He doesn't have either. All he has is ivory which I knew about since I saw his elephants already.

He just gave himself 2 axemen as soon as I declared war. Amazing.

Someone said he could have iron that I can't see which IS possible as I don't have that tech yet and if so then I look like an ass. :) I still have to wonder where he got the money for the upgrades though. When I went into the world builder he had 41 gold. How much does it cost to upgrade 2 warriors to axemen?

-E
 
Endureth said:
Someone said he could have iron that I can't see which IS possible as I don't have that tech yet and if so then I look like an ass. :) I still have to wonder where he got the money for the upgrades though. When I went into the world builder he had 41 gold. How much does it cost to upgrade 2 warriors to axemen?

Since you already jumped into the world builder once, it wouldn't hurt to give yourself the iron working tech, check the resources, then remove the tech again. Also, the AI gets rediculously cheap unit upgrade prices, even on noble. One cash goodie hut would be more than enough for them to upgrade 2 of them.
 
Yep ... on Noble, the player and the AI are on almost even footing, however the AI still does get some bonuses. The very low upgrade cost is one of them. You could mod this out, however this will probably lead to the AI not upgrading its units.
 
Endureth said:
Against my better judgement (I do want to play out this game) I put a spy in his city just to see if he had the copper or iron. He doesn't have either. All he has is ivory which I knew about since I saw his elephants already.

He just gave himself 2 axemen as soon as I declared war. Amazing.

Someone said he could have iron that I can't see which IS possible as I don't have that tech yet and if so then I look like an ass. :) I still have to wonder where he got the money for the upgrades though. When I went into the world builder he had 41 gold. How much does it cost to upgrade 2 warriors to axemen?

-E

Yeah, I noticed a similar occurrence playing Prince, which I posted about. The mysterious appearance of *four* new units in a surrounded enemy city in just *two* turns. And the Civ did not use labour hurry production and did not have the gold hurry production Civic.
 
Maybe the city that you captured is on copper or something, because I don't see any other explination, other than trade...
 
The two probable explanations are that either one of his cities is directly on the copper (in which case he doesn't need a mine to access it), or you don't have bronze working yourself so you can't see the copper.

@ screwtype - Is it possible these units were drafted? Or were airlifted in? Or simply moved in from a road out of the fog when you weren't paying attention?
 
The ridiculously cheap upgrade prices the computer gets really irks me. There have been a couple of times where I declared war on a civilization I knew had virtually no gold, and a couple of turns later they've researched a military tech and in one turn they upgrade like 1/3rd to 1/2 their units. It's just unpleasant when all their longbowmen suddenly turn into riflemen.
 
Come on, accept the cheating as a part of modern strategy games!

After all, the dev team spent all resources to build the new shiny 3D interface, so the lack of a sophisticated AI must be boosted by cheating to provide challnge.
 
I'm fine with the AI cheating, providing the game is upfront with how they cheat. I don't like the AI cheating in ways I don't know about.
 
Sinai said:
The ridiculously cheap upgrade prices the computer gets really irks me. There have been a couple of times where I declared war on a civilization I knew had virtually no gold, and a couple of turns later they've researched a military tech and in one turn they upgrade like 1/3rd to 1/2 their units. It's just unpleasant when all their longbowmen suddenly turn into riflemen.

Maybe they can run into debt? If they didn't have any significant debt, then, whether it worked or not that surely wasn't the method. Of course other nations can gift them into a gold surplus to then upgrade by.
 
While the AI does "cheat" to a certain extent, I have never known it build units that require resources it doesn't have. This is the kind of cheating that would be far too blatant and game-breaking to appear in the game. As to the upgrade price, the AI does indeed get a substantial discount on upgrade prices on noble. As your post makes it clear you destroyed them, it didn't do them very much good. Noble is the closest to equal footing the AI gets, but it still has a few minor bonuses. Given that noble doesn't seem much of a challenge even now, possibly this is just as well.

@screwtype - I'm sure there's a civic that lets you draft three units per turn. Four units in two turns is therefore perfectly plausible. Always bear in mind that this will work for you as well, and so cannot be construed as "cheating".
 
Okay, there was iron I wasn't seeing because I didn't have the tech yet. I did see it later. That mine on the grassland tile should have clued me in.

Also, when I got the ability to build axemen myself I checked the upgrade cost for a warrior. 85 gold. He had 41. If the AI's upgrade costs are cheaper they must be AT LEAST 25% normal cost. That's a little exessive, especially on noble where the AI isn't suppose to have advantages and a well executed strategy should work.

Later in the game I had about 2 horsemen, a chariot, an axeman and a swordsman up against his city. The city had 2 archers in it. I waited one turn so my units could heal up, he attacked me with an archer during his turn and died. I thought, hey, that leaves one archer. Bah, my turn came up and he had 5!! in the city. grrrrrr

Whatever...

-E
 
Endureth said:
Okay, there was iron I wasn't seeing because I didn't have the tech yet. I did see it later. That mine on the grassland tile should have clued me in.

The AI tends to get real good starting locations near Iron, even on 'Continents' maps.

Endureth said:
Later in the game I had about 2 horsemen, a chariot, an axeman and a swordsman up against his city. The city had 2 archers in it. I waited one turn so my units could heal up, he attacked me with an archer during his turn and died. I thought, hey, that leaves one archer. Bah, my turn came up and he had 5!! in the city. grrrrrr

You should have pillage all roads to that city for an easier time. That way, the city will be isolated from their Empire and not have any resources supplied to it. Also, Reinforcements will take a longer time too.
 
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